Change in SF?

[tango]

OK, did the IHSAA change the Success Factor rules so that a team who had been bumped and only accrued 2 points or less now goes down to the next lower class? If so, that would mean Ev. Memorial comes back down to 3A for 2024.  

[tango]

I swear to God I thought it was state law that less than 2 points drops back, 2 - 5 points stays put, and 6 or more gets bumped. 

[First_Backer_Inside]

10 minutes ago, tango said:

OK, did the IHSAA change the Success Factor rules so that a team who had been bumped and only accrued 2 points or less now goes down to the next lower class? If so, that would mean Ev. Memorial comes back down to 3A for 2024.  

Sure sounds that way. I always understood it as 2 points, a sectional win each year, or a regional win one year, kept you in that class, but what you have here isn't written that way.

Edited November 16, 2023 by First_Backer_Inside

[Lysander]

Looks like it changed.  Someone told me that a few weeks ago and I told them, “No way.”  Guess I should have read it.

[tango]

7 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Looks like it changed.  Someone told me that a few weeks ago and I told them, “No way.”  Guess I should have read it.

That excerpt came from the 2023-2024 By-laws. I am embarrassed to say I was not aware of the change. 

[Lysander]

5 minutes ago, tango said:

That excerpt came from the 2023-2024 By-laws. I am embarrassed to say I was not aware of the change. 

Kind of earthshaking for it to have been changed with so little ballyhoo.  I know you may disagree but I thought it should have gone in the other direction.

[tango]

8 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Kind of earthshaking for it to have been changed with so little ballyhoo.  I know you may disagree but I thought it should have gone in the other direction.

We will play wherever the IHSAA puts us (obviously), but as a fan, our 4A Sectional 24 is boring because all but 2 teams are regular season opponents. It was fun to see a team the caliber of EC the past few years, and we very very lucky to have snuck one past them, but I suspect most years it would end the way it did this year. Being in 3A and rekindling post-season rivalries with GS and HH will be so much more fun.

[slice60]

https://www.ihsaa.org/sites/default/files/documents/Tournament Success Factor.pdf

Looks like the IHSAA did sneak that change past everybody in July. Going forward, 0, 1 or 2 points earned in 2 years sends the school back down.

On a positive note, any Success Factor changes (up or down) will be implemented every year instead of after each 2-year window. This will put an end to smaller schools winning 3 straight State championships before being bumped up.

[slice60]

Here is what I see for the Success Factor changes in football for the 2024 & 2025 seasons. Please correct me if I am wrong. (This was posted BEFORE the Semistate games were played.)

1A - Lutheran 6+pts will be moved up to 2A.

Adams Central 5+pts will move up to 2A in they win Semistate.

North Judson 4+pts will move up to 2A if they win State.

2A - LCC 3+pts will remain in 2A.

FW Luers 4+pts will move up to 3A if they win State.

3A - Chatard 6+pts will move up to 4A.

4A - East Central 6+pts will move up to 5A.

Ev Memorial 2pts* will drop back to 3A. (*due to change made by IHSAA in July '23)

5A - FW Snider 4+pts will move up to 6A if they win State.

6A - Cathedral 3pts will remain in 6A.

Edited November 16, 2023 by slice60
typo

[Lysander]

22 minutes ago, slice60 said:

https://www.ihsaa.org/sites/default/files/documents/Tournament Success Factor.pdf

Looks like the IHSAA did sneak that change past everybody in July. Going forward, 0, 1 or 2 points earned in 2 years sends the school back down.

On a positive note, any Success Factor changes (up or down) will be implemented every year instead of after each 2-year window. This will put an end to smaller schools winning 3 straight State championships before being bumped up.

So your read on it (I have yet to closely read it) is that it “rolls” year to year and if over ANY two year period a team acquires 6 points they will bump up the following year.  If so, that is a very good change.

I do think, though, that they should have decreased the number to stay “up” to 1 point rather than increase it to 3 points.

As big of a deal as all of this is I’m still just gobsmacked it’s been so seemingly under the radar until now.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Lysander

[Southside]

12 minutes ago, Lysander said:

I do think, though, that they should have decreased the number to stay “up” to 1 point rather than increase it to 3 points.

This change just moves it back to what it was before 2019.  Pre-2019 it was 3 points to stay up, then in 2019 they changed it to 2 points to stay up.

[Lysander]

38 minutes ago, Southside said:

This change just moves it back to what it was before 2019.  Pre-2019 it was 3 points to stay up, then in 2019 they changed it to 2 points to stay up.

I thought it was 4 points originally to stay up…..then moved down to 2.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Lysander

[foxbat]

9 minutes ago, Lysander said:

I thought it was 4 points originally to stay up…..then moved down to 2.

It was originally 4 to stay.  

[Southside]

20 minutes ago, foxbat said:

It was originally 4 to stay.  

In 2016 it was changed to 3, then in 2019 it was changed to 2, and now it back to 3.

[BendNotBreak]

1 hour ago, Lysander said:

 

I do think, though, that they should have decreased the number to stay “up” to 1 point rather than increase it to 3 points.

 

Mayb it would make sense in some Sectionals.... say the Sec of Death? .. but im not so sure... would need to look at it State wide over  the classes... surely an anaylis? or found something to indicate this is the way to go?  But then again... it is the ISHAA.....

[scarab527]

To me winning a Regional in one year or Sectionals in both years of a classification cycle is enough to justify a team staying in that class. The rich get richer with this one. 

[Lysander]

29 minutes ago, BendNotBreak said:

Mayb it would make sense in some Sectionals.... say the Sec of Death? .. but im not so sure... would need to look at it State wide over  the classes... surely an anaylis? or found something to indicate this is the way to go?  But then again... it is the ISHAA.....

I think the justification for only needing 1 point to stay up is, generally, that if you are good enough to win a Sectional 50% of the time (once per 2 year cycle) thereby earning 1 point over a 2 year period then that would seem to demonstrate your ability to compete effectively in that class.  Again, just my opinion.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Lysander

[foxbat]

1 hour ago, Southside said:

In 2016 it was changed to 3, then in 2019 it was changed to 2, and now it back to 3.

I was referencing the inaugural class.  LCC bounced back down to 1A having only acquired a regional in their first cycle.

Personally, I like 2 to stay.

 

 

[BendNotBreak]

32 minutes ago, Lysander said:

I think the justification for only needing 1 point to stay up is, generally, that if you are good enough to win a Sectional 50% of the time (once per 2 year cycle) thereby earning 1 point over a 2 year period then that would seem to demonstrate your ability to compete effectively in that class.  Again, just my opinion.

Not disagreeing w u...  1 or 2 seems right to me.... I thout they were heading in the 1pt direction as well... just trying to understand Why they reversed the trend  n went the other way??  Strikes me as.. Odd

[Lysander]

4 minutes ago, BendNotBreak said:

Not disagreeing w u...  1 or 2 seems right to me.... I thout they were heading in the 1pt direction as well... just trying to understand Why they reversed the trend  n went the other way??  Strikes me as.. Odd

Me too.  

[slice60]

49 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

To me winning a Regional in one year or Sectionals in both years of a classification cycle is enough to justify a team staying in that class. The rich get richer with this one. 

Let's call it The Chatard Amendment

[foxbat]

23 minutes ago, Lysander said:

I think the justification for only needing 1 point to stay up is, generally, that if you are good enough to win a Sectional 50% of the time (once per 2 year cycle) thereby earning 1 point over a 2 year period then that would seem to demonstrate your ability to compete effectively in that class.  Again, just my opinion.

My only issue with that is remnance of a good class; especially if one point is picked up the first season up and zero the second.

[BendNotBreak]

18 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Me too.  

Could possibly reduce time for some.... which I don't think is nessisaraly is a bad thing... hmmmm

[TigerFan20]

Interesting, always thought it was 2 points and you stay for the next cycle 

[Frozen Tundra]

19 hours ago, Lysander said:

I think the justification for only needing 1 point to stay up is, generally, that if you are good enough to win a Sectional 50% of the time (once per 2 year cycle) thereby earning 1 point over a 2 year period then that would seem to demonstrate your ability to compete effectively in that class.  Again, just my opinion.

I’m with you on this. Just to get one point, you need to get 2-3 wins. It only requires one win for each additional point. So if you get through half the tournament and end up in the “Elite 8” then that one point should be enough to keep you up a class.