Topic for discussion

[whiteshoes]

As someone who tracks all fifty states in this sport, I have the unique opportunity to see how others conduct their tournaments.    Some have some great ideas (Ohio plays on Saturdays at neutral sites), others have some strange ideas (several states in New England still conduct an arch-rival game on Thanksgiving weekend after their tournaments are over.)    Arizona has a recently added feature that I have come to favor.    Similar to Indiana, they have six classes in football.    At the end of each season, a committee selects the eight best teams in the state to play in an "Open" tournament.    Everyone else still plays in their respective classes.    One of the things I like about it is that if a school has an outstanding season, they are allowed to test themselves against the best teams in the state.    Then the following year, if the school loses a lot of talent, they simply drop back into their previous class.   This idea hit me when I thought about a Chatard-East Central matchup.    I realize that some will say that this dilutes the final game in each class by taking away the best team in that class.    So instead of watching Chatard winning a 3A title again, which is almost a foregone conclusion, we could watch a Knox-Heritage Hills final game this weekend.   Surely a Northwood-New Palestine final would be a better game than East Central-Northwood.   Maybe its me, but there a lot of things we could do to improve our tournament.

[BLACKGOLD2007]

@whiteshoes in the EC thread, there is a huge debate about Ben Davis or EC being the top team in the state. I think this is a great idea. 

You want to know who the overall champion of the state is, you get invited and win the elite tournament. Then yes there will be default winners of the other 6 classes, but you will get some interesting matchups.

6A might actually be won by a team from the North part of the state....well.... that is open for discussion. 

Who would be the 8 teams in?

my thoughts: 

1. Ben Davis

2. East Central

3. Center Grove

4. Cathedral

5. Chatard

6. Brownsburg

7. Westfield

8. Snider or Crown Point 

you could make cases for HSE and or Fishers

[BTF]

58 minutes ago, whiteshoes said:

As someone who tracks all fifty states in this sport, I have the unique opportunity to see how others conduct their tournaments.    Some have some great ideas (Ohio plays on Saturdays at neutral sites), others have some strange ideas (several states in New England still conduct an arch-rival game on Thanksgiving weekend after their tournaments are over.)    Arizona has a recently added feature that I have come to favor.    Similar to Indiana, they have six classes in football.    At the end of each season, a committee selects the eight best teams in the state to play in an "Open" tournament.    Everyone else still plays in their respective classes.    One of the things I like about it is that if a school has an outstanding season, they are allowed to test themselves against the best teams in the state.    Then the following year, if the school loses a lot of talent, they simply drop back into their previous class.   This idea hit me when I thought about a Chatard-East Central matchup.    I realize that some will say that this dilutes the final game in each class by taking away the best team in that class.    So instead of watching Chatard winning a 3A title again, which is almost a foregone conclusion, we could watch a Knox-Heritage Hills final game this weekend.   Surely a Northwood-New Palestine final would be a better game than East Central-Northwood.   Maybe its me, but there a lot of things we could do to improve our tournament.

I also think that's a great idea. 

I don't think it dilutes anything. The winner of 6A will almost always be given credit as the best team in the state anyway. I think other programs are ok with that. No different than wrestling. The other schools can say "were the best with the resources that we have." 

[BTF]

1 hour ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

Who would be the 8 teams in?

my thoughts: 

1. Ben Davis

2. East Central

3. Center Grove

4. Cathedral

5. Chatard

6. Brownsburg

7. Westfield

8. Snider or Crown Point 

you could make cases for HSE and or Fishers

Eliminate Hamilton Southeastern and Fishers. Although they can make a case for that 8 position, I don't see the point in including a team that doesn't finish in the top two of their own conference. I think you also eliminate any team with three or more regular season losses (in state only). That eliminates Cathedral and bumps in both Crown Point and Snider. Crown Point speaks for themselves. If I'm on the committee, I include Snider over Penn, Valpo, and Merrillville. Although those three programs had outstanding seasons, they all suffered a blowout loss. Snider's only loss was in overtime. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by BTF

[jets]

1 hour ago, whiteshoes said:

As someone who tracks all fifty states in this sport, I have the unique opportunity to see how others conduct their tournaments.    Some have some great ideas (Ohio plays on Saturdays at neutral sites), others have some strange ideas (several states in New England still conduct an arch-rival game on Thanksgiving weekend after their tournaments are over.)    Arizona has a recently added feature that I have come to favor.    Similar to Indiana, they have six classes in football.    At the end of each season, a committee selects the eight best teams in the state to play in an "Open" tournament.    Everyone else still plays in their respective classes.    One of the things I like about it is that if a school has an outstanding season, they are allowed to test themselves against the best teams in the state.    Then the following year, if the school loses a lot of talent, they simply drop back into their previous class.   This idea hit me when I thought about a Chatard-East Central matchup.    I realize that some will say that this dilutes the final game in each class by taking away the best team in that class.    So instead of watching Chatard winning a 3A title again, which is almost a foregone conclusion, we could watch a Knox-Heritage Hills final game this weekend.   Surely a Northwood-New Palestine final would be a better game than East Central-Northwood.   Maybe its me, but there a lot of things we could do to improve our tournament.

Dumbest.Idea.Ever. I can't believe a State actually does that. I mean, it makes sense for the biggest schools ...what you are describing is essentially their State tournament anyway. 

But let's say you are a once-in-a-lifetime class and you have a chance to win your 4A title - but then the State elects you to play up against Center Grove. That is suppose to be rewarding?!?

[BTF]

1 minute ago, jets said:

Dumbest.Idea.Ever. I can't believe a State actually does that. I mean, it makes sense for the biggest schools ...what you are describing is essentially their State tournament anyway. 

But let's say you are a once-in-a-lifetime class and you have a chance to win your 4A title - but then the State elects you to play up against Center Grove. That is suppose to be rewarding?!?

I think some programs would take issue with it. Advancing in the playoffs brings in a lot of revenue to their athletic departments. Outside of that, I think a program would be flattered to "get in" and compete against the best. Although I love the idea, I don't see it gaining traction in the state of Indiana. 

[JQWL]

We did something similar when basketball went to a Class tournament. Tournament of Champions! Sounded like a great way to appease the single class crowd. I think it lasted 3 years.

[BLACKGOLD2007]

5 minutes ago, BTF said:

Eliminate Hamilton Southeastern and Fishers. Although they can make a case for that 8 position, I don't see the point in including a team that doesn't finish in the top two of their own conference. I think you also eliminate any team with three or more regular season losses (in state only). That eliminates Cathedral and bumps in both Crown Point and Snider. Crown Point speaks for themselves. If I'm on the committee, I include Snider over Penn, Valpo, and Merrillville. Although those three programs had outstanding seasons, they all suffered a blowout loss. Snider's only loss was in overtime. 

The reason I was hesitant to give CP the full on push into the final 8, was because of the unknown at the end of the regular season. Now, yes easily they are in the final 8. I kept Cathedral in because, even though they had 3 losses their largest loss was by 14 to Brownsburg. Even though their record doesn't show it, they are one of the best 8 teams in the state. 

You do have a point that regular season results have to mean something....I didn't consider Penn to even be near this group, they played a good non-conference schedule but their conference situation is poor. their 8-1 finish is a little bloated. Now, they played 2 top 25 Sag rated teams and went 1-1 against them. They played 1 top 35 sag rated team and won that game. To me that does not scream worthy of being considered in the discussion. Valpo and The Ville I would have look at separately. 

[BLACKGOLD2007]

28 minutes ago, jets said:

Dumbest.Idea.Ever. I can't believe a State actually does that. I mean, it makes sense for the biggest schools ...what you are describing is essentially their State tournament anyway. 

But let's say you are a once-in-a-lifetime class and you have a chance to win your 4A title - but then the State elects you to play up against Center Grove. That is suppose to be rewarding?!?

It should be an invitation not a mandate. I don't think you should have to play in this tournament if you don't want to.

According to some fans on the EC v Northwood thread would find it to be worth the challenge. Most of these teams are highly rated nationally. There is a legitimate chance that the winner could end in the top 10 of the national rankings. Some years this tournament would have resulted in a potential "national title" 

Most of the teams that would be considered for this tournament would be repeat invitation recipients. BD, CG, Cathedral etc would likely be considered or up for consideration yearly.  

[BLACKGOLD2007]

40 minutes ago, JQWL said:

We did something similar when basketball went to a Class tournament. Tournament of Champions! Sounded like a great way to appease the single class crowd. I think it lasted 3 years.

Interesting, I don't remember that. When did Indiana go to the class system in Basketball?

[Obi-Wan]

5 minutes ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

Interesting, I don't remember that. When did Indiana go to the class system in Basketball?

1998 was the first year of class basketball. I also miss the Dunk and Three Point contest.

[BLACKGOLD2007]

2 minutes ago, Obi-Wan said:

1998 was the first year of class basketball. I also miss the Dunk and Three Point contest.

Makes sense I was 10 at the time. 

[Tippy]

1 hour ago, JQWL said:

We did something similar when basketball went to a Class tournament. Tournament of Champions! Sounded like a great way to appease the single class crowd. I think it lasted 3 years.

It lasted 2 years and in the 2nd year the 1A champs, Tecumseh, did very well against the 4A champs, Indy North Central.  Indy North Central won 69-64.  I don't know why they stopped the TOC?

[hhpatriot04]

28 minutes ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

Makes sense I was 10 at the time. 

You were 10 and don't remember the last Indiana High School Single Class Basketball Tournament ever conducted? What type of childhood did you have? Was the abuse really bad? It seems you never recovered (the affiliation with Purdont...)

Yikes!

[Punttheball]

How about reclassifying every year?  You play in the state title game and you move up a class for a year.  You would be considered the best from both the North and the South in that respective class.  Reclassification can't be as hard as the IHSAA makes it out to be.  If you play in the state championship after the bump, you move up again.  If you don't play in the state championship, you move back down.  Would be easier to keep track of then the point system.  Just a thought.

[JQWL]

54 minutes ago, Obi-Wan said:

1998 was the first year of class basketball. I also miss the Dunk and Three Point contest.

Those were awesome. Not sure why they ever stopped doing that.

[JQWL]

30 minutes ago, Tippy said:

It lasted 2 years and in the 2nd year the 1A champs, Tecumseh, did very well against the 4A champs, Indy North Central.  Indy North Central won 69-64.  I don't know why they stopped the TOC?

I feel like it stopped because for some of these teams, they won a state championship, but then they lost the next weekend. So people almost felt like the Class State Championships were watered down. 

[BTF]

11 minutes ago, JQWL said:

I feel like it stopped because for some of these teams, they won a state championship, but then they lost the next weekend. So people almost felt like the Class State Championships were watered down. 

I don't see the point of winning a state championship then putting your team in position to lose a game the following week. That makes absolutely no sense to me. 

[Daniel_Bragg]

52 minutes ago, hhpatriot04 said:

You were 10 and don't remember the last Indiana High School Single Class Basketball Tournament ever conducted? What type of childhood did you have? Was the abuse really bad? It seems you never recovered (the affiliation with Purdont...)

Yikes!

Personally, growing up in Sheridan, I can't tell you a single basketball game I attended until I was in high school in 2004.  No one cares about basketball, when your football program is what drives the school system.

Looking back now, I do kind of wish that I had at least seen a little bit of single-class basketball, but class system has never bothered me.

[Obi-Wan]

52 minutes ago, hhpatriot04 said:

You were 10 and don't remember the last Indiana High School Single Class Basketball Tournament ever conducted? What type of childhood did you have? Was the abuse really bad? It seems you never recovered (the affiliation with Purdont...)

Yikes!

I would agree... I was 10 at the time too (don't like the Purdont comment, but I will let that slide) 

 

50 minutes ago, Punttheball said:

How about reclassifying every year?  You play in the state title game and you move up a class for a year.  You would be considered the best from both the North and the South in that respective class.  Reclassification can't be as hard as the IHSAA makes it out to be.  If you play in the state championship after the bump, you move up again.  If you don't play in the state championship, you move back down.  Would be easier to keep track of then the point system.  Just a thought.

Would it be the top 4 teams from each class every year... like a relegation type deal? If that's the case do you drop the bottom 4 as well would that be based solely on record? Seems like a lot of work for the IHSAA, but if they could get it right would make for interesting changes to the classes every year.

[Daniel_Bragg]

3 hours ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

@whiteshoes in the EC thread, there is a huge debate about Ben Davis or EC being the top team in the state. I think this is a great idea. 

You want to know who the overall champion of the state is, you get invited and win the elite tournament. Then yes there will be default winners of the other 6 classes, but you will get some interesting matchups.

6A might actually be won by a team from the North part of the state....well.... that is open for discussion. 

Who would be the 8 teams in?

my thoughts: 

1. Ben Davis

2. East Central

3. Center Grove

4. Cathedral

5. Chatard

6. Brownsburg

7. Westfield

8. Snider or Crown Point 

you could make cases for HSE and or Fishers

My Hypothetical List(just for comparison):

1. Ben Davis

2. Brownsburg

3. Center Grove

4. East Central

5. Westfield

6. Cathedral

7. Hamilton Southeastern

8. Crown Point

Using my list, this whole thing would kind of be moot.  All but one are in 6A.  I think in the vast majority of seasons, this Open Tournament would end up being almost completely 6A teams.  To me, it defeats the purpose.

[RegionFBFan]

21 minutes ago, BTF said:

I don't see the point of winning a state championship then putting your team in position to lose a game the following week. That makes absolutely no sense to me. 

Completely agree with you BTF.

if you are so determined to identify best team in State, go back to 5 classes by combining 5A and 6A. It would essentially capture the top teams in State 90% + of the time.

[Punttheball]

17 minutes ago, Obi-Wan said:

Would it be the top 4 teams from each class every year... like a relegation type deal? If that's the case do you drop the bottom 4 as well would that be based solely on record? Seems like a lot of work for the IHSAA, but if they could get it right would make for interesting changes to the classes every year.

I think you just go top two every year.

[CoachMack219]

2 hours ago, jets said:

Dumbest.Idea.Ever. I can't believe a State actually does that. I mean, it makes sense for the biggest schools ...what you are describing is essentially their State tournament anyway. 

But let's say you are a once-in-a-lifetime class and you have a chance to win your 4A title - but then the State elects you to play up against Center Grove. That is suppose to be rewarding?!?

Arizona began this idea because of a 4A team's (Saguaro HS) dominance of the 4A division in Arizona from 2006 to 2018 where they won 11 out of 13 state championships including a run of 6 in a row from 2013-2018. There was the possibility for the first 2-3 years of "The Open Division" for the "once-in-a-lifetime class" to have to play in the Open but they have since tried to account for that by adding a multiplier to their formula that increases the chances 5 and 6A teams are selected instead of 4A teams who, unlike Saguaro, don't have as much of a chance against the big dogs. This is FAR from the dumbest idea ever. For the record, Saguaro won the Open division in 2021 as well becoming the first 4A to do so in Arizona knocking off some heavy hitters along the way much like some believe East Central can do to some of our heavy hitters. I think this would be a pretty awesome concept to see in Indiana. I do like the idea someone mentioned above about having to "accept" the invite to play in "The Open Division" especially if they're from a class below 5A. And based on final records after the regular season, their current postseason finishes, and the good ole eye test, my Open Division this year if I had a seat on the committee would have been... 

1. Ben Davis 6A

2. Center Grove 6A

3. Brownsburg 6A

4. East Central 4A

5. Indianapolis Chatard 3A

6. Crown Point 6A

7. Fort Wayne Snider 5A

8. Westfield 6A

[hhpatriot04]

9 minutes ago, CoachMack219 said:

Arizona began this idea because of a 4A team's (Saguaro HS) dominance of the 4A division in Arizona from 2006 to 2018 where they won 11 out of 13 state championships including a run of 6 in a row from 2013-2018. There was the possibility for the first 2-3 years of "The Open Division" for the "once-in-a-lifetime class" to have to play in the Open but they have since tried to account for that by adding a multiplier to their formula that increases the chances 5 and 6A teams are selected instead of 4A teams who, unlike Saguaro, don't have as much of a chance against the big dogs. This is FAR from the dumbest idea ever. For the record, Saguaro won the Open division in 2021 as well becoming the first 4A to do so in Arizona knocking off some heavy hitters along the way much like some believe East Central can do to some of our heavy hitters. I think this would be a pretty awesome concept to see in Indiana. I do like the idea someone mentioned above about having to "accept" the invite to play in "The Open Division" especially if they're from a class below 5A. And based on final records after the regular season, their current postseason finishes, and the good ole eye test, my Open Division this year if I had a seat on the committee would have been... 

1. Ben Davis 6A

2. Center Grove 6A

3. Brownsburg 6A

4. East Central 4A

5. Indianapolis Chatard 3A

6. Crown Point 6A

7. Fort Wayne Snider 5A

8. Westfield 6A

This is horrible. It's like trying to put a bandaid on a bleeding artery.