NIL on the high school level

[Irishman]

I was messaging back and forth with @stryker while I was on Spring Break in Florida when he said this was coming; and here it is. Florida is the latest State to approve NIL money to be paid to high school athletes. While college athletics will never be the same again, and I am not sure how long things will last on the current track. With this, I think State associations will have to be much more involved in monitoring students moving, and the likelihood of undue influence. At least Florida is banning people from forming groups like a booster club to collect money to funnel to players. I have doubts though that they have the ability to really monitor it though. There are over 500 schools in Florida. How many people work for the FHSAA? 

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/florida-high-school-athletic-association-approves-student-athlete-nil-rules/3328346/#:~:text=good starting point.”-,The FHSAA's Board of Directors voted unanimously to approve a,for the upcoming school year. 

"The FHSAA’s Board of Directors voted unanimously to approve a seismic change in the organization’s bylaws to allow athletes to be compensated for their name, image and likeness, or NIL. The changes will be in effect for the upcoming school year."

also FTA: "As of October, 30 states and the District of Columbia allow high-school athletes to “receive NIL compensation,” according to the revamped bylaws approved Tuesday."

How long before it comes to Indiana? 

[Muda69]

1 hour ago, Irishman said:

 At least Florida is banning people from forming groups like a booster club to collect money to funnel to players.

I can see rich and famous H.S. booster groups, like the Carmel Dad's Club,  fighting this in court should such a ban occur in Indiana.

 

[Irishman]

3 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

I can see rich and famous H.S. booster groups, like the Carmel Dad's Club,  fighting this in court should such a ban occur in Indiana.

 

Absolutely 

[tango]

The IHSAA is not equipped to handle any additional oversight / enforcement of more rules. Personally, I don't see HS NIL as having anywhere near the earth-shattering impact as its had in college athletics because there just isn't the revenue. The NCAA & colleges have made millions off athletes, but that isn't the case in HS athletics as most schools & programs are lucky to break even. 

[globemstr3]

Seems simple to me. If an organization wants to use NIL then pay the athlete. If you can't afford it don't use it.  I am a 77 grad of Linton though so consider the source please.

[Impartial_Observer]

2 minutes ago, globemstr3 said:

Seems simple to me. If an organization wants to use NIL then pay the athlete. If you can't afford it don't use it.  I am a 77 grad of Linton though so consider the source please.

I often am reminded I’m from another time. 

[Irishman]

1 hour ago, tango said:

The IHSAA is not equipped to handle any additional oversight / enforcement of more rules. Personally, I don't see HS NIL as having anywhere near the earth-shattering impact as its had in college athletics because there just isn't the revenue. The NCAA & colleges have made millions off athletes, but that isn't the case in HS athletics as most schools & programs are lucky to break even. 

I agree in large part, but think about travel/club influence. Several years ago, there was an instance where a travel team tried to influence an athlete. The travel club had signed on with one shoe/gear maker, but the school the player attended had signed on with a different shoe provider. There was another high school close by that contracted with the same provider as the travel club. The area rep for that brand was trying to get the player to transfer. It ended up being a case of undue influence. But as you said, the IHSAA is not equipped to monitor or handle things on that level. The impact would be felt most in areas where multiple schools are in close proximity. And yes, most programs break even, this would certainly favor ones that are in solid financial shape. 

Something else that could factor into this is the IHSAA considering allowing students a one time transfer after freshman year. 

[Trojanmp52]

My 2 cents the nil was designed for an athlete to make money on them self out side of the school. Like a player say Caitlin Clark for example she did the State Farm adds.  That is what the intent of it was for.  I feel if a kids in high school can get paid to a some like that on smaller scale of course why not let them.  Like the local town dinner want to do an add for and have some of the football team in. What is wrong with that and paying the kids for doing it.  Side mote i would use lineman  for any kind of eatery. We all know they love to eat. 

[Irishman]

12 minutes ago, Trojanmp52 said:

My 2 cents the nil was designed for an athlete to make money on them self out side of the school. Like a player say Caitlin Clark for example she did the State Farm adds.  That is what the intent of it was for.  I feel if a kids in high school can get paid to a some like that on smaller scale of course why not let them.  Like the local town dinner want to do an add for and have some of the football team in. What is wrong with that and paying the kids for doing it.  Side mote i would use lineman  for any kind of eatery. We all know they love to eat. 

I think most people, myself included are ok if it were just about kids earning money doing commercials and ads, but I also think many of us can see how it can quickly spiral out of control. 

[Trojanmp52]

That is true the ncaa is prove of that

7 minutes ago, Irishman said:

I think most people, myself included are ok if it were just about kids earning money doing commercials and ads, but I also think many of us can see how it can quickly spiral out of control. 

 

[Irishman]

10 minutes ago, Trojanmp52 said:

That is true the ncaa is prove of that

 

And the IHSAA has FAR fewer resources available to monitor and investigate those issues. 

[WCHS Tiger Fan]

On 6/5/2024 at 11:32 AM, Irishman said:

I was messaging back and forth with @stryker while I was on Spring Break in Florida when he said this was coming; and here it is. Florida is the latest State to approve NIL money to be paid to high school athletes. While college athletics will never be the same again, and I am not sure how long things will last on the current track. With this, I think State associations will have to be much more involved in monitoring students moving, and the likelihood of undue influence. At least Florida is banning people from forming groups like a booster club to collect money to funnel to players. I have doubts though that they have the ability to really monitor it though. There are over 500 schools in Florida. How many people work for the FHSAA? 

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/florida-high-school-athletic-association-approves-student-athlete-nil-rules/3328346/#:~:text=good starting point.”-,The FHSAA's Board of Directors voted unanimously to approve a,for the upcoming school year. 

"The FHSAA’s Board of Directors voted unanimously to approve a seismic change in the organization’s bylaws to allow athletes to be compensated for their name, image and likeness, or NIL. The changes will be in effect for the upcoming school year."

also FTA: "As of October, 30 states and the District of Columbia allow high-school athletes to “receive NIL compensation,” according to the revamped bylaws approved Tuesday."

How long before it comes to Indiana? 

I hope it never hit's Indiana

[Formerly Number 39]

On 6/5/2024 at 11:50 AM, tango said:

The IHSAA is not equipped to handle any additional oversight / enforcement of more rules. Personally, I don't see HS NIL as having anywhere near the earth-shattering impact as its had in college athletics because there just isn't the revenue. The NCAA & colleges have made millions off athletes, but that isn't the case in HS athletics as most schools & programs are lucky to break even. 

I posted this on another thread, but we have NIL for high school players here in California. It hasn't really changed the landscape that much, if at all. The power programs before NIL are still the power programs with NIL. 

[WestfieldRocks]

On 6/6/2024 at 10:30 AM, Trojanmp52 said:

That is true the ncaa is prove of that

 

The NCAA got caught with their pants down on the NIL issue. I remember the first year with some local IU and Purdue players getting some spending money from t-shirt sales with their name and likeness. The NCAA had no idea that these collectives would quickly form and bring in huge $$$ to essentially buy players.

[PDB26]

On 6/10/2024 at 7:39 AM, WestfieldRocks said:

The NCAA got caught with their pants down on the NIL issue. I remember the first year with some local IU and Purdue players getting some spending money from t-shirt sales with their name and likeness. The NCAA had no idea that these collectives would quickly form and bring in huge $$$ to essentially buy players.

I'm not so sure they got caught with their pants down. As I understand it, they had NIL rules ready that to implement until the Supreme Court made its decision in the Alston case. Members were on notice that enforcement could get involved in pay for play situations or if schools made payments in excess of full cost of attendance payments permissible under Alston, but, outside of that notice there was limited guidance. There is the cynical view that non enforcement was intentional to secure help from Congress once NIL started looking bad. The less cynical view is that the Court's decision in Alston and the signal sent by Justice Kavanaugh's concurrence scared the NCAA off from taking a more aggressive stance on NIL and recruiting––this is probably backed up by the preliminary injunction issued against the NCAA by the Eastern District of Tennessee in the case about NIL and recruiting. 

[Irishman]

6 hours ago, PDB26 said:

I'm not so sure they got caught with their pants down. As I understand it, they had NIL rules ready that to implement until the Supreme Court made its decision in the Alston case. Members were on notice that enforcement could get involved in pay for play situations or if schools made payments in excess of full cost of attendance payments permissible under Alston, but, outside of that notice there was limited guidance. There is the cynical view that non enforcement was intentional to secure help from Congress once NIL started looking bad. The less cynical view is that the Court's decision in Alston and the signal sent by Justice Kavanaugh's concurrence scared the NCAA off from taking a more aggressive stance on NIL and recruiting––this is probably backed up by the preliminary injunction issued against the NCAA by the Eastern District of Tennessee in the case about NIL and recruiting. 

All true, but the NCAA waited until the ball was rolling. They could have/should have done something years and even decades ago. 

[PDB26]

On 6/11/2024 at 8:05 PM, Irishman said:

All true, but the NCAA waited until the ball was rolling. They could have/should have done something years and even decades ago. 

They could have done something, but I have no idea what would have led to a durable solution. This ball has been rolling since 1985 when the members won control of the rights to tv broadcasts of football games from the NCAA.

It is proving impossible for a membership organization comprised of wildly different prerogatives to resolve the issue of cash in college athletics. Just consider that a federal court in Tennessee thinks UT is likely to prevail in a trial challenging NCAA rules prohibiting recruiting inducements or that the Ivy League is in a lawsuit challenging their no-scholarships rule––all under the Sherman Act. 

Good news, I don't think anyone really has to worry about this type of situation for high school athletes (inducements/collectives) in Indiana since Indiana courts treat athletics as a part of the education system and not a commercial endeavor. The IHSAA should be able to prohibit those payments. However, I think a challenge of an endorsement prohibition would be successful.

[Irishman]

3 minutes ago, PDB26 said:

Good news, I don't think anyone really has to worry about this type of situation for high school athletes (inducements/collectives) in Indiana since Indiana courts treat athletics as a part of the education system and not a commercial endeavor. The IHSAA should be able to prohibit those payments. However, I think a challenge of an endorsement prohibition would be successful.

Solid points on the other parts, but for this one, keep in mind the Indiana General Assembly inserted itself and the DOE as the final authority; making it easier to challenge rulings the IHSAA makes. 
 

[PDB26]

23 hours ago, Irishman said:

Solid points on the other parts, but for this one, keep in mind the Indiana General Assembly inserted itself and the DOE as the final authority; making it easier to challenge rulings the IHSAA makes.

My legal commentary was in response to the comments earlier in the thread of some wealthy group like the Carmel Dads Club challenging a prohibition of collectives and inducements in court, and how the facts don't match up with how plaintiffs have successfully challenged the NCAA––basically, scholarships = acquisition costs and therefore they can't be capped by an agreement among competitors, which we don't have in high school athletics.

It seems like the GA and DOE became involved in response to the Indiana Supreme Court clarification of the analytical framework for cases arising out of rules/enforcement in Carlberg in 1997. As far as I understand it, the DOE is an alternative route to conventional legal action––which is good considering how long the legal process takes. 

[Zonefball]

If it benefits private schools, Indiana legislators will let, *make, it happen. They aren’t thinking of the best solution for the situation, just themselves (because their children attend private schools) That’s been proven by their actions on other educational issues. 

Back to Football:

How many good coaches who just want to coach football and be a positive light for their kids are gonna leave coaching over this? I can see it now, first time the 30 yr veteran coach gets told by his star D-Lineman he needs a thousand bucks to play this year, that coach is out. These kids are minors. College NIL is way different, grown adults (legally) and the image profiting is real at that level. We think this is going too help the entitlement issue with kids? Good luck with that. 

How many good coaches will leave the state to one that doesn’t have an inept organization like the IHSAA trying to manage something like this? Currently they cannot get an enrollment multiplier figured out (successful factor steals more championships than it helps create) or simple seeding for the tournament. We think they could control NIL $? 

[BTF]

7 minutes ago, Zonefball said:

How many good coaches who just want to coach football and be a positive light for their kids are gonna leave coaching over this? 

Could start a new thread on this topic. How many current coaches are doing this just for the enjoyment and the "positive light" on kids and with no intention of spilling their entire life into building a state championship team.........which is pretty much what it takes. 

[Zonefball]

7 minutes ago, BTF said:

Could start a new thread on this topic. How many current coaches are doing this just for the enjoyment and the "positive light" on kids and with no intention of spilling their entire life into building a state championship team.........which is pretty much what it takes. 

Those two are not mutually exclusive. Nor should they be. 

[Zonefball]

Just now, Zonefball said:

Those two are not mutually exclusive. Nor should they be. 

 

9 minutes ago, BTF said:

Could start a new thread on this topic. How many current coaches are doing this just for the enjoyment and the "positive light" on kids and with no intention of spilling their entire life into building a state championship team.........which is pretty much what it takes. 

All good coaches realize the responsibility that they are charged with to be that guiding light while pouring everything they have and sacrificing everything towards wining it all, every time, every year. Which is part of the enjoyment, football coaches are crazy that way. 
 

My above comment was a personal opinion, that you cannot win a state title without having coaches that believe in being a positive light / mentor, because those are the ones that are willing to give up their life too win a ring. It would be offensive to coaches that they only do it for enjoyment. When the player asks for money at the HS level, it strikes deep at the heart of those coaches that are the day in day out grinders. Getting zero dollars to coach, doing it because they know it is a worthwhile endeavor for humans to be involved in. It, the NIL HS argument, like a lot of other things currently, missed the target. Stop asking if we could, start asking if we should. 

[BTF]

40 minutes ago, Zonefball said:

 

All good coaches realize the responsibility that they are charged with to be that guiding light while pouring everything they have and sacrificing everything towards wining it all, every time, every year. Which is part of the enjoyment, football coaches are crazy that way. 
 

My above comment was a personal opinion, that you cannot win a state title without having coaches that believe in being a positive light / mentor, because those are the ones that are willing to give up their life too win a ring. It would be offensive to coaches that they only do it for enjoyment. When the player asks for money at the HS level, it strikes deep at the heart of those coaches that are the day in day out grinders. Getting zero dollars to coach, doing it because they know it is a worthwhile endeavor for humans to be involved in. It, the NIL HS argument, like a lot of other things currently, missed the target. Stop asking if we could, start asking if we should. 

To be clear. I'm perfectly okay with a coach being that "guiding light" without pouring his life into it. Many coaches have a family to go home to and kids to raise.