Neighbors to the West, Unhappy

[wabashalwaysfights]

2 hours ago, jets said:

Answer me this : Chatard's 630 student population ....(Name any public School) 630 student population

You think they are the same?? And you think its ok for Chatard (or any P/P) to play in the same classification ?? 

If you do think they should AND IT IS FAIR - well then, that's where we differ greatly 

Actually was in this exact situation in high school as it turns out.

Are the student populations the same? Probably not, but to pretend that any student population of any school, public or P/P is the same is laughable. When I was in high school, Benton Central, Crawfordsville, and West Lafayette were all 3A schools: all public, all in the same general geographic area (West Central part of the state). Were those 3 student populations the same? I would argue absolutely not: Crawfordsville is a stand alone town, West Lafayette is one of 4 public schools in a more metropolitan area (to say nothing of their proximity to Purdue) and Benton Central (who actually shares a school boundary with West Lafayette) has what was at one point when I taught there years ago, the largest geographic district in the state withsome studentswhonhad tobdrive 45 minutesone way to getto school. I can tell you from experience, those student populations are in no way the same: so how do you control for those variables, even among public schools?

Is it okay for public schools of a similar size to play in the same classification as Chatard? Yes, it perfectly logical for them to do so. I graduated from Crawfordsville High School in 2006: we played Chatard my sophomore through senior year. I get it: our student populations were not the same, no more than our student population and Benton Central's were the same (BC was likely at a much greater disadvantage than we were given how spread out that district is). We wouldn't have had to play in the same classification as Chatard if the IHSAA would impose a multiplier or we had the success factor in the early to mid 2000s: we didn't. We got blown out my Sophomore/Junior year and played a damn competitive game my Senior year (lost 21-7). Was that fair to me and my classmates? I would argue it was at the time given the rules we had to play by (straight up enrollment, no success factor): we were all born 15ish years too early. 

Now, I've answered all your questions, please answer mine. Why is a multiplier more advantageous than our current success factor? Would not Chatard have been bumped up to 4A prior my having to play them? Depending on when it was implemented, absolutely. It arrives at quite literally the same place that that you who so desperately are pushing for a multiplier, and does so not explicitly on the basis of public versus P/P, but on the basis of a programs success on the field and nothing else.

 

2 hours ago, Muda69 said:

No, it doesn't.  A true system of promotion & relegation takes enrollment entirely out of the equation.

See the above. Theoretically, I love true promotion and relegation in professional sports, in high school sports you have to have a baseline to work off of, and enrollment is by far and away the most logical. It makes the most sense to start with enrollment and let results on the field ( the success factor) work the rest out.

 

Look ladies and gentlemen, as foxbat said, there's literally always going to be some reason to complain. Are there logical problems with the success factor? I'm sure there are, though I have yet to see any. Is it perfect? I'm sure it's not because nothing is perfect. Personally, I think there are bigger problems with our tournament system, for example I absolutely hate the all in format, but that's not the subject here. But to pretend that a blanket multiplier either instead of or somehow in addition to the current success factor is, to me, laughable. As I said before, the success factor quite literally arrives at the same result, only it is results based and applies to publics as well as P/P schools, which again, makes perfect sense. Under the logic I keep seeing here, public schools with sustained success (New Pal, Adams Central, and Linton as examples) clearly have some kind of advantage over their fellow public school counterparts, why not bump them as well? 

[FastpacedO]

9 hours ago, jets said:

Answer me this : Chatard's 630 student population ....(Name any public School) 630 student population

You think they are the same?? And you think its ok for Chatard (or any P/P) to play in the same classification ?? 

If you do think they should AND IT IS FAIR - well then, that's where we differ greatly 

Here is my problem with a multiplier and why I prefer a success factor:

Western H.S. has 791 students and Gibson Southern has 771 students. Gibson Southern is 99-21 over the last 10 years (7-3 this year) and Western 49-54 over the last 10 years (0-10 this year). Both are public schools so is Gibson Southern's 771 students times 1.65 (or whatever multiplier you have chosen) better than Western's 791? 

Heritage Hills has 635 students and Owen Valley has 650 students. Heritage Hills is 91-29 over the last 10 years (14-1 this year)and Owen Valley is 44-62 over the last 10 years (0-10 this year). Both are Public Schools so is Heritage Hills 635 students times 1.65 (or whatever multiplier you have chosen) better than Owen Valley's 650.

Bishop Chatard has 730 students and is 104-32 over the last 10 years (9-3 this year). You feel Bishop Chatard's 730 students are 1.65 times better than Gibson Southern's 771 and Heritage Hills 635 because of the type of students they don't have to count. However what you don't look at is with a 1.65 (or whatever multiplier you have chosen) this will also be applied to Hammond Bishop Noll's 617 Students. Because you also feel Hammond Noll 617 students should be counted as 1.65 (or whatever multiplier you have chosen) because of the students they don't have to count like Heritage Hills and Gibson Southern do. Hammond Bishop Noll is 8-80 over the last 10 years (this year one of their most successful years at 3-7).

This is why I don't like the multiplier, the multiplier will be applied to ALL Private/Parochial schools equally and they are not ALL equally as successful just like not ALL Public schools are equally successful or not successful. At least the success factor looks towards the success of every school and bumps up the successful schools. No the success factor is not perfect and needs tweaks to make it better. You can't convince me in any way that a multiplier is needed when you have Private Parochial schools like Hammond Noll. You only look at the successful Private / Parochial schools because it fits your narrative. 

[oldtimeqb]

Quote

 

It is important to remember that a school's classification is not determined until the 256-team field has been selected on the final day of the season. The classes used in the Associated Press polls are a best guess at the final determinations, but they are unofficial and can be misleading. The fact that the AP ranks a school all season in a certain class has no bearing on the school's ultimate classification in the state playoffs. This can be determined only at season's end, after the entire 256-team field is selected. 

The chart below shows the enrollment cutoffs for the 256-team field. The multiplier on non-boundaried schools was implemented in 2005. Starting in 2011, any school that had not won a playoff football game in the past six years received an automatic waiver from the multiplier. Starting in 2015, this window was reduced to four years, increasing the number of schools with waivers. Starting in 2019, the window was further reduced to two years.

 So about Illinois (see above) 

Their multiplier is pretty much what I would say is pretty inconsistent. No playoff wins in two years and the multiplier is waived. And classes aren’t set until the playoff qualifiers are selected. 

What it boils down to: 7/8 of their state championships were won by P/P schools. Public school fans weren’t happy. 

Indiana - success factor. 5/6 titles won by public schools… and public school fans still aren’t happy. 

As @foxbat said. There will still be complaints regardless of the system due to perceived advantages. 

 

[PHJIrish]

The annual "we got to do something about the P/P's winning too much" is always a treat.  Wringing hand and furrowed brows and then no real solutions.  Some schools just don't want to compete, but just complain.  Hard work pays off.  The "success factor" was designed to "even the playing field" but it just doesn't seem to be enough for some.  It's a never ending subject, that's for sure.

[Titan32]

If I were a P/P....I would say something like....just shut up, accept the system no matter how broken and just "compete".  Give me a break.  Only P#ssys shut up and take it up the caboose....be a man, call out injustice and fight it at every opportunity and point out hypocrisy when you can!  Glad some of you guys weren't our founding fathers....ya'll are probably descendants of Canadians. 

Make no mistake, the IHSAA reads our rantings on this platform, maybe someday logic will sink in.  

[wabashalwaysfights]

26 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

If I were a P/P....I would say something like....just shut up, accept the system no matter how broken and just "compete".  Give me a break.  Only P#ssys shut up and take it up the caboose....be a man, call out injustice and fight it at every opportunity and point out hypocrisy when you can!  Glad some of you guys weren't our founding fathers....ya'll are probably descendants of Canadians. 

Make no mistake, the IHSAA reads our rantings on this platform, maybe someday logic will sink in.  

Well this is the most rational and logical thing I've read today... Happy Friday the 13th everybody!

[Tippy]

1 hour ago, PHJIrish said:

The annual "we got to do something about the P/P's winning too much" is always a treat.  Wringing hand and furrowed brows and then no real solutions.  Some schools just don't want to compete, but just complain.  Hard work pays off.  The "success factor" was designed to "even the playing field" but it just doesn't seem to be enough for some.  It's a never ending subject, that's for sure.

Some people can't stand it when a p/p beats a public school.  They couldn't stand it in the 1920's and 30's and they can't stand it today.  Many p/p's don't even have good football programs.  From 1942-1997 not one time did a Catholic school win the IN high school basketball championship.  They would like it to be the same in football.  It might be ok if a p/p wins a championship in football every 45 years.  For some people, every time a p'p wins a championship, that is a bad thing.  It's always going to be that way.  Some would be happy if they brought back the Oregon School Law of 1922.

[JQWL]

47 minutes ago, Tippy said:

Some people can't stand it when a p/p beats a public school.  They couldn't stand it in the 1920's and 30's and they can't stand it today.  Many p/p's don't even have good football programs.  From 1942-1997 not one time did a Catholic school win the IN high school basketball championship.  They would like it to be the same in football.  It might be ok if a p/p wins a championship in football every 45 years.  For some people, every time a p'p wins a championship, that is a bad thing.  It's always going to be that way.  Some would be happy if they brought back the Oregon School Law of 1922.

I am curious. Did something change in 1997 that a Catholic school did win a state championship in basketball?(or volleyball or baseball) Did something change that allowed private schools to be more successful? 

[Tippy]

10 minutes ago, JQWL said:

I am curious. Did something change in 1997 that a Catholic school did win a state championship in basketball?(or volleyball or baseball) Did something change that allowed private schools to be more successful? 

They went to class basketball, and that was a bad thing.  I don't like class sports.  You could move all p/p's up to the highest class and if one would win, you still wouldn't like it. I guess Catholic schools never had an advantage in basketball, because even in single class basketball you would think that one P/P would win a championship in 55 years. Some p/p's do well in sports and some do not.  When did LCC start having advantages?  LCC didn't win anything in football from 1977-1998 and they had class football.  I don't think anyone cares what class p/p's are in, just as long as they don't win.  Just move all p/p's up 2 classes and all public schools can stay where they are at and be done with it.  So LCC will now be in 3A for ever.  Is that good enough for you?

[JQWL]

9 minutes ago, Tippy said:

They went to class basketball, and that was a bad thing.  I don't like class sports.  You could move all p/p's up to the highest class and if one would win, you still wouldn't like it. I guess Catholic schools never had an advantage in basketball, because even in single class basketball you would think that one P/P would win a championship in 55 years. Some p/p's do well in sports and some do not.  When did LCC start having advantages?  LCC didn't win anything in football from 1977-1998 and they had class football.  I don't think anyone cares what class p/p's are in, just as long as they don't win.  Just move all p/p's up 2 classes and all public schools can stay where they are at and be done with it.  So LCC will now be in 3A for ever.  Is that good enough for you?

Yeah, I guess that's fine with me. I just asked a question. Not sure why you're being pissy toward me. Didn't LCC almost shut down during the 90's due to lack of money and enrollment? Maybe that's why they didn't win anything because they were focused on keeping the doors open. 

Don't worry. The IHSAA will never do anything different. Too many of our state politicians send their kids to private schools. They know if they actually addressed the issue, they would be disbanded and taken over by the IDOE.

[Tippy]

31 minutes ago, JQWL said:

Yeah, I guess that's fine with me. I just asked a question. Not sure why you're being pissy toward me. Didn't LCC almost shut down during the 90's due to lack of money and enrollment? Maybe that's why they didn't win anything because they were focused on keeping the doors open. 

Don't worry. The IHSAA will never do anything different. Too many of our state politicians send their kids to private schools. They know if they actually addressed the issue, they would be disbanded and taken over by the IDOE.

I'm sorry!  Its not you!   When I read some of the comments on here, I can just feel the hate towards p/p schools.  Its probably not hate. Some people just think they win too much.   Anyway, Merry Christmas!

[foxbat]

22 hours ago, jets said:

Answer me this : Chatard's 630 student population ....(Name any public School) 630 student population

You think they are the same?? And you think its ok for Chatard (or any P/P) to play in the same classification ?? 

If you do think they should AND IT IS FAIR - well then, that's where we differ greatly 

What about Concordia Lutheran's 623 kids?  Asking for a friend as I/he have never heard a p/p complaint with the words "Concordia Lutheran" in it.  Wonder if it's just coincidence tied to 2-8, 0-10, 4-7, and 2-8 ... Concordia's season record for the past four seasons ... and the fact that they haven't made it out of sectionals for the last four years all courtesy of public school kids including one with what must been an amazingly-talented 300 570 Spartans Cadets holding the Hot Gates against onslaught of the divinely-endowed 623 Persians Lutherans.

Incidentally, to save the time of lookups, Concordia, over 31 seasons:

• Only six seasons escaping a sectional
  • 3 sectionals ... one courtesy of a short COVID sectional
  • 2 regionals
  • 1 state title
• 25 non-winning seasons ... losing or tied
• 24 seasons ended by public school opponents from 15 different programs
• Only one back-to-back season pairing where they got out of a sectional, 2019 and 2020, both resulting in terminal sectional wins
• The one state title in 2016 was flanked on either side by two seasons where they never made it out of sectionals and included three losing seasons out of the four games, the fourth was a 7-5 season.

Interesting comparison ... West Lafayette over the same timeframe:

• 10 seasons escaping a sectional
  • 4 sectionals
  • 3 regionals
  • 1 semi-state
  • 2 state titles
• 10 non-winning seasons ... losing or tied
• Three back-to-back or more season pairing where they got out of a sectional including a four-year streak resulting in a state title, semi-state, and two sectionals and another three-year streak that resulted in a regional, sectional, and state title.

[Muda69]

11 hours ago, foxbat said:

What about Concordia Lutheran's 623 kids? 

It's obvious.  Lutheran's aren't Catholic. The are dirty protestants who believe in Justification by grace through faith alone.

 

[foxbat]

2 hours ago, Muda69 said:

It's obvious.  Lutheran's aren't Catholic. The are dirty protestants who believe in Justification by grace through faith alone.

 

So what you are saying is that faith without works is a dead tourney season?

[Titan32]

8 hours ago, Muda69 said:

It's obvious.  Lutheran's aren't Catholic. The are dirty protestants who believe in Justification by grace through faith alone.

 

And that church isn’t an exclusive club.

[Titan32]

On 12/12/2024 at 11:34 PM, wabashalwaysfights said:

Actually was in this exact situation in high school as it turns out.

Are the student populations the same? Probably not, but to pretend that any student population of any school, public or P/P is the same is laughable. When I was in high school, Benton Central, Crawfordsville, and West Lafayette were all 3A schools: all public, all in the same general geographic area (West Central part of the state). Were those 3 student populations the same? I would argue absolutely not: Crawfordsville is a stand alone town, West Lafayette is one of 4 public schools in a more metropolitan area (to say nothing of their proximity to Purdue) and Benton Central (who actually shares a school boundary with West Lafayette) has what was at one point when I taught there years ago, the largest geographic district in the state withsome studentswhonhad tobdrive 45 minutesone way to getto school. I can tell you from experience, those student populations are in no way the same: so how do you control for those variables, even among public schools?

Is it okay for public schools of a similar size to play in the same classification as Chatard? Yes, it perfectly logical for them to do so. I graduated from Crawfordsville High School in 2006: we played Chatard my sophomore through senior year. I get it: our student populations were not the same, no more than our student population and Benton Central's were the same (BC was likely at a much greater disadvantage than we were given how spread out that district is). We wouldn't have had to play in the same classification as Chatard if the IHSAA would impose a multiplier or we had the success factor in the early to mid 2000s: we didn't. We got blown out my Sophomore/Junior year and played a damn competitive game my Senior year (lost 21-7). Was that fair to me and my classmates? I would argue it was at the time given the rules we had to play by (straight up enrollment, no success factor): we were all born 15ish years too early. 

Now, I've answered all your questions, please answer mine. Why is a multiplier more advantageous than our current success factor? Would not Chatard have been bumped up to 4A prior my having to play them? Depending on when it was implemented, absolutely. It arrives at quite literally the same place that that you who so desperately are pushing for a multiplier, and does so not explicitly on the basis of public versus P/P, but on the basis of a programs success on the field and nothing else.

 

See the above. Theoretically, I love true promotion and relegation in professional sports, in high school sports you have to have a baseline to work off of, and enrollment is by far and away the most logical. It makes the most sense to start with enrollment and let results on the field ( the success factor) work the rest out.

 

Look ladies and gentlemen, as foxbat said, there's literally always going to be some reason to complain. Are there logical problems with the success factor? I'm sure there are, though I have yet to see any. Is it perfect? I'm sure it's not because nothing is perfect. Personally, I think there are bigger problems with our tournament system, for example I absolutely hate the all in format, but that's not the subject here. But to pretend that a blanket multiplier either instead of or somehow in addition to the current success factor is, to me, laughable. As I said before, the success factor quite literally arrives at the same result, only it is results based and applies to publics as well as P/P schools, which again, makes perfect sense. Under the logic I keep seeing here, public schools with sustained success (New Pal, Adams Central, and Linton as examples) clearly have some kind of advantage over their fellow public school counterparts, why not bump them as well? 

Enrollment alone is a horrible solution.   Enrollment types are too dissimilar between a business and a school.

[foxbat]

3 hours ago, Titan32 said:

Enrollment alone is a horrible solution.   Enrollment types are too dissimilar between a business and a school.

It's too dissimilar between a school and a school.  As @wabashalwaysfights pointed out with Crawfordsville, Benton Central, and West Lafayette.  Those were three 3A schools roughly 30-40 minutes on either side of West Lafayette and their student body make-ups had different DNAs.

[wabashalwaysfights]

5 hours ago, Titan32 said:

Enrollment alone is a horrible solution.   Enrollment types are too dissimilar between a business and a school.

I do not advocate for enrollment alone. I have consistently said that the success factor that we currently have is a more than adequate adjustment to an enrollment based classification system rather than the application of any kind of multiplier. 

[Titan32]

22 minutes ago, wabashalwaysfights said:

I do not advocate for enrollment alone. I have consistently said that the success factor that we currently have is a more than adequate adjustment to an enrollment based classification system rather than the application of any kind of multiplier. 

I'm not for a multiplier.  But I do like the Iowa enrollment modification system.

 

1 hour ago, foxbat said:

It's too dissimilar between a school and a school.  As @wabashalwaysfights pointed out with Crawfordsville, Benton Central, and West Lafayette.  Those were three 3A schools roughly 30-40 minutes on either side of West Lafayette and their student body make-ups had different DNAs.

A business offers an exclusive experience.  Kind of like free lessons at the public golf course vs lessons from the course pro at the country club.  They are NOT the same; the latter should not receive tax dollars.  One is a business offering an exclusive experience with like-minded individuals.

[Tippy]

5 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

I'm not for a multiplier.  But I do like the Iowa enrollment modification system.

 

A business offers an exclusive experience.  Kind of like free lessons at the public golf course vs lessons from the course pro at the country club.  They are NOT the same; the latter should not receive tax dollars.  One is a business offering an exclusive experience with like-minded individuals.

A Catholic school is NOT a business.  It is a private, non-profit organization primarily focused on religious education and student formation, rather than generating profit; their main goal is to provide quality education within the Catholic faith, not to maximize financial gain.

[Titan32]

6 minutes ago, Tippy said:

A Catholic school is NOT a business.  It is a private, non-profit organization primarily focused on religious education and student formation, rather than generating profit; their main goal is to provide quality education within the Catholic faith, not to maximize financial gain.

While that is a worthwhile purpose, it's not really a school experience. It's an exclusive experience that comes at a cost.  This exclusive experience is a choice...not a right.  It's capitalism at its finest..."not for profit" or not.  It creates a very homogenous building population in addition to attracting quality students and quality student-athletes through the desire of their customers to be paired with like-minded individuals.

Edited December 15, 2024 by Titan32

[PHJIrish]

18 minutes ago, Tippy said:

A Catholic school is NOT a business.  It is a private, non-profit organization primarily focused on religious education and student formation, rather than generating profit; their main goal is to provide quality education within the Catholic faith, not to maximize financial gain.

LIKE and AMEN!

13 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

While that is a worthwhile purpose, it's not really a school experience. It's an exclusive experience that comes at a cost.  This exclusive experience is a choice...not a right.  It's capitalism at its finest..."not for profit" or not.  It creates a very homogenous building population in addition to attracting quality students and quality student-athletes through the desire of their customers to be paired with like-minded individuals.

Well, Cathedral High School must have made a mistake with me then, back in the day!

[Titan32]

2 minutes ago, PHJIrish said:

LIKE and AMEN!

Well, Cathedral High School must have made a mistake with me then, back in the day!

LOL....there are always exceptions HA HA!

[wabashalwaysfights]

2 hours ago, Titan32 said:

I'm not for a multiplier.  But I do like the Iowa enrollment modification system.

Then for the love if all that is good and pure: what are you for then? Seems to me like we've reached the semantics portion of the conversation: it seems to me that the "success factor" and a "multiplier" are both "enrollment modification systems. The Iowa system would seem to fall in the "multiplier" camp: primarily because you are taking the schools enrollment and reducing it accord to their free and reduced population, I would assume by "multiplying" somehow? At least that's how I read the image that you posted. 

 

[Muda69]

On 12/14/2024 at 10:28 AM, foxbat said:

So what you are saying is that faith without works is a dead tourney season?

Yes, and a Catholic Priest to pray on player's/team's behalf.