Wide Open 6A

[Grover]

50 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

Mallory's arrival at LN has not gotten a ton of fanfare, but he deserves more credit for changing that culture. They now field a full, MIC-style roster with very good players. Tom Dilley's a great football coach, but I think in his last year he had 36 players finish the game against BD that year. Coach Mallory has done a great job and, with McCulley coming back next year, they will be strong.

100% agree

[BDGiant93]

14 minutes ago, JustRules said:

Something didn't click for him there. The last year he had 50 players grades 9-12 so your 36 number sounds reasonable. In February Coach Mallory had 125 kids in the weight room and that would have only included grades 9-11 since the seniors were already done. There were a lot of boys in the building who wanted to play but didn't for some reason want to play for Coach Dilley. Mallory has kept those numbers up throughout his time. They have had a solid team the past 3-4 years but can't get over the hump consistently.

It did early in his tenure there. LN finished 2nd in the MIC under Coach Dilley.

[BTF]

14 hours ago, JustRules said:

LN, LC and CG all have about 2400 students and they often compete with and have beaten Carmel in recent seasons. And LN/LC have typically been in the bottom half of the MIC the past few seasons. This shows the MIC is better than every other conference in the state top to bottom. The HCC has a few teams that can also compete and beat MIC teams but outside of that very few can. This isn't a knock on any teams outside the MIC. It's just a fact the MIC and HCC teams have separated from the rest of the state.

I've always felt that Center Grove could make a case for having the best program in Indiana.............pound for pound. But it did take some time for Eric Moore to build that program to what it is today. He really had no choice but to take on the "get better or get used to it" mentality. Being the great coach that he is, he was able to use WC, BD, and Carmel as a bench mark and turn his team into the power that it is today. He started out 7-18 against the Big 3 of the MIC. They've gone 25-25 since..............yes, very impressive for a school of 2500. 

Lawrence North and Lawrence Central, both similar enrollments to Center Grove, hardly ever beat the Big 3. Lawrence North is 1-13 against Carmel in their last 14 tries. Lawrence Central is 0-7 against Carmel since 2011. I'm not seeing where they even played Carmel before that. So LC and LN are a combined 1-20 against Carmel in recent memory. 

In conclusion, Center Grove is the only school who has sustained success against Carmel, BD, and WC. Snider (1800) is 0-2 against Carmel in the last decade losing by an average of 8 points per contest. Historically, they are 4-9 against Carmel, but outscoring them in those contests. Six of Snider's defeats came by 3 points or less. They are 1-1 vs Ben Davis and 3-4 vs Warren Central. 

I don't think it's fair to expect schools of less than 2500 to compete with Carmel (5000), Ben Davis (4400), and Warren Central (3700) just because Center Grove and Snider have. I have great respect for those three programs and their fans. I enjoy watching Snider compete with the big boys. But when some come on here (no posters from BD, WC, or Carmel) and insult 6a football in the northern half of the state, I'm going to defend them. 

[Staxawax]

24 minutes ago, BTF said:

 

In conclusion, Center Grove is the only school who has sustained success against Carmel, BD, and WC. Snider (1800) is 0-2 against Carmel in the last decade losing by an average of 8 points per contest. Historically, they are 4-9 against Carmel, but outscoring them in those contests. Six of Snider's defeats came by 3 points or less. They are 1-1 vs Ben Davis and 3-4 vs Warren Central. 

. 

So for probably the hundredth time you quote Snider’s illustrious past in losing to Carmel. You are so proud of this!

I guess next year when Carmel goes south your posts will actually be legitimate!

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, BTF said:

I've always felt that Center Grove could make a case for having the best program in Indiana.............pound for pound. But it did take some time for Eric Moore to build that program to what it is today. He really had no choice but to take on the "get better or get used to it" mentality. Being the great coach that he is, he was able to use WC, BD, and Carmel as a bench mark and turn his team into the power that it is today. He started out 7-18 against the Big 3 of the MIC. They've gone 25-25 since..............yes, very impressive for a school of 2500. 

Lawrence North and Lawrence Central, both similar enrollments to Center Grove, hardly ever beat the Big 3. Lawrence North is 1-13 against Carmel in their last 14 tries. Lawrence Central is 0-7 against Carmel since 2011. I'm not seeing where they even played Carmel before that. So LC and LN are a combined 1-20 against Carmel in recent memory. 

In conclusion, Center Grove is the only school who has sustained success against Carmel, BD, and WC. Snider (1800) is 0-2 against Carmel in the last decade losing by an average of 8 points per contest. Historically, they are 4-9 against Carmel, but outscoring them in those contests. Six of Snider's defeats came by 3 points or less. They are 1-1 vs Ben Davis and 3-4 vs Warren Central. 

I don't think it's fair to expect schools of less than 2500 to compete with Carmel (5000), Ben Davis (4400), and Warren Central (3700) just because Center Grove and Snider have. I have great respect for those three programs and their fans. I enjoy watching Snider compete with the big boys. But when some come on here (no posters from BD, WC, or Carmel) and insult 6a football in the northern half of the state, I'm going to defend them. 

I have constantly praised Center Grove's success on here in large part due to the consistency of their coaching staff and ability to run their system to perfection all the way down to the youth league levels.  Think about this.  Since Eric Moore took over at Center Grove, Lawrence North has had four coaches and Lawrence Central SEVEN.  You cannot cut bait and rebuild every 4-5 year and expect to compete with the big three (Carmel, WC, BD) mentioned.  At the collegiate level, Nebraska, Tennessee, and others still have not figured this out.

Also, socioeconomics plays a BIG role here.  The enrollments of Lawrence Township and of Center Grove are where the similarities end.  Both LC and LN boast a free/reduced lunch rate at over 60 percent, whereas Center Grove is under 20 percent.  This is the #1 indicator of student success in the classroom and on the athletic field in my opinion.  (For comparison purposes, Carmel is under 10 percent and both Warren and BD are over 75 (and both have gone universal when it comes to free lunch now)).

Warren and Ben Davis are able to combat it because they have 1500/2000 more students than CG, a luxury that the Lawrence schools cannot afford.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Guest

[BTF]

2 minutes ago, Temptation said:

I have constantly praised Center Grove's success on here in large part due to the consistency of their coaching staff and ability to run their system to perfection all the way down to the youth league levels.  Think about this.  Since Eric Moore took over at Center Grove, Lawrence North has had four coaches and Lawrence North SEVEN.  You cannot cut bait and rebuild every 4-5 year and expect to compete with the big three (Carmel, WC, BD) mentioned.  At the collegiate level, Nebraska, Tennessee, and others still have not figured this out.

Also, socioeconomics plays a BIG role here.  The enrollments of Lawrence Township and of Center Grove are where the similarities end.  Both LC and LN boast a free/reduced lunch rate at over 60 percent, whereas Center Grove is under 20 percent.  This is the #1 indicator of student success in the classroom and on the athletic field in my opinion.  (For comparison purposes, Carmel is under 10 percent and both Warren and BD are over 75 (and both have gone universal when it comes to free lunch now)).

Warren and Ben Davis are able to combat it because they have 1500/2000 more students than CG, a luxury that the Lawrence schools cannot afford.

Agree.................all very good points. 

[BTF]

31 minutes ago, Staxawax said:

So for probably the hundredth time you quote Snider’s illustrious past in losing to Carmel. 

It has nothing to do with losing, but everything to do with being competitive. Also notice that I only bring it up when a poster from Indy insults the quality of 6a football up north. And I will continue to do so at least 100 more times, so if you don't want to hear it, I suggest you put me on your ignore list. 

Sorry for leaving Avon out of the discussion. Maybe that is the reason for your bitterness. I will be sure to say something positive about them in the near future so that there are no hurt feelings. 

[BTF]

40 minutes ago, Staxawax said:

I guess next year when Carmel goes south your posts will actually be legitimate!

Lol....................what? I'm pretty sure the strength of the north will ultimately be exposed, whether it's regional or state. Your comment makes no sense. 

[JustRules]

46 minutes ago, Temptation said:

I have constantly praised Center Grove's success on here in large part due to the consistency of their coaching staff and ability to run their system to perfection all the way down to the youth league levels.  Think about this.  Since Eric Moore took over at Center Grove, Lawrence North has had four coaches and Lawrence Central SEVEN.  You cannot cut bait and rebuild every 4-5 year and expect to compete with the big three (Carmel, WC, BD) mentioned.  At the collegiate level, Nebraska, Tennessee, and others still have not figured this out.

Also, socioeconomics plays a BIG role here.  The enrollments of Lawrence Township and of Center Grove are where the similarities end.  Both LC and LN boast a free/reduced lunch rate at over 60 percent, whereas Center Grove is under 20 percent.  This is the #1 indicator of student success in the classroom and on the athletic field in my opinion.  (For comparison purposes, Carmel is under 10 percent and both Warren and BD are over 75 (and both have gone universal when it comes to free lunch now)).

Warren and Ben Davis are able to combat it because they have 1500/2000 more students than CG, a luxury that the Lawrence schools cannot afford.

I was going to add the socio-economic difference for CG as well. Lawrence Township is probably one of the most diverse economically since it includes some of the wealthiest (much of Geist is in Lawrence Township) and the poorest (42nd and Post is one of the highest crime areas in the city) and everything in between. Despite the fact LN and LC have not beaten Carmel, looking at the scores many of the games have been competitive. LC didn't play Carmel in the regular season before 2013 because that's when they joined the MIC.

Here is LN's history with Carmel:
2019 - lost 23-20 in OT
2018 - lost 23-9
2017 - lost 38-14
2016 - won 27-20

Here is LC's history with Carmel:
2019 - lost 20-7
2018 - lost 16-14
2017 - lost 21-19
2016 - lost 35-20
2015 - lost 35-26
2014 - lost 27-20
2013 - lost 17-7

For the most part those are pretty competitive games despite the number of losses.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, JustRules said:

I was going to add the socio-economic difference for CG as well. Lawrence Township is probably one of the most diverse economically since it includes some of the wealthiest (much of Geist is in Lawrence Township) and the poorest (42nd and Post is one of the highest crime areas in the city) and everything in between. Despite the fact LN and LC have not beaten Carmel, looking at the scores many of the games have been competitive. LC didn't play Carmel in the regular season before 2013 because that's when they joined the MIC.

Here is LN's history with Carmel:
2019 - lost 23-20 in OT
2018 - lost 23-9
2017 - lost 38-14
2016 - won 27-20

Here is LC's history with Carmel:
2019 - lost 20-7
2018 - lost 16-14
2017 - lost 21-19
2016 - lost 35-20
2015 - lost 35-26
2014 - lost 27-20
2013 - lost 17-7

For the most part those are pretty competitive games despite the number of losses.

Some Geist families are choosing HSE and Mt. Vernon over the Lawrence Township schools.

[Grover]

Walk me through the benefits of an upperclass area as it relates to football other than affording better equipment and a better stadium.

[Bobref]

5 minutes ago, Grover said:

Walk me through the benefits of an upperclass area as it relates to football other than affording better equipment and a better stadium.

There are a number of “potential “ benefits. As always, some schools take advantage, and some don’t. Speaking in general:

1. Not as many kids have after school or weekend jobs that detract from their ability to be involved in extracurriculars.
2. Kids can afford to go to clinics and camps in the off season.
3. The schools can afford to pay more and better coaches, and there’s not as much coaching turnover.
4. Don’t discount the advantages of better nutrition and more stable family situations.
5. Ditto for facilities and equipment, which you seem to dismiss.

[Grover]

1.  Possibly.  I'd be curious to hear how many schools lose good players to jobs.

2.  Okay.  Most camps and clinics are BS but there are benefits to be had in the right programs.

3.  Maybe.  I have heard there are other MIC schools in lower socioeconomic areas that have coaches who don't have to teach.  That's not the case at CG.

4.  Granted, but I'm not sure that is high on the list of attributes college recruiters are seeking.

5.  That's a silly comment.  I granted the better facilities and equipment in my post that you quoted.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Grover

[JustRules]

1 hour ago, Grover said:

1.  Possibly.  I'd be curious to hear how many schools lose good players to jobs.

2.  Okay.  Most camps and clinics are BS but there are benefits to be had in the right programs.

3.  Maybe.  I have heard there are other MIC schools in lower socioeconomic areas that have coaches who don't have to teach.  That's not the case at CG.

4.  Granted, but I'm not sure that is high on the list of attributes college recruiters are seeking.

5.  That's a silly comment.  I granted the better facilities and equipment in my post that you quoted.

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is a real thing. If you don't have safety as a basis it's hard to have anything else. That doesn't mean you still can't be successfully in a micro sense, but as a macro that's why more affluent schools can have a larger percentage of their good athletes be able to play and focus on football. If it was a guarantee Zionsville and Park Tudor would be dominant, but at Bob said it doesn't always apply. But not worrying about if you can get to games or practices or if you'll have food when you get home are big advantages.

I worked an IPS game one year and they had #65 throwing to #72 in warm-ups. I asked the coach if those were his starting QB and receiver. He said they were today. He never knows until they get on the bus who will be playing that day. Some kids just don't show up. I doubt Carmel or Center Grove ever have that issue. It's not likely at township schools either, but more affluence and more stable home situations can be an advantage.

[Bobref]

6 hours ago, JustRules said:

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is a real thing.

Not just a terrific official, but also a social psychologist! https://www.simplypsychology.org/maslow.html

[BDGiant93]

On 11/18/2019 at 8:59 PM, Grover said:

1.  Possibly.  I'd be curious to hear how many schools lose good players to jobs.

2.  Okay.  Most camps and clinics are BS but there are benefits to be had in the right programs.

3.  Maybe.  I have heard there are other MIC schools in lower socioeconomic areas that have coaches who don't have to teach.  That's not the case at CG.

4.  Granted, but I'm not sure that is high on the list of attributes college recruiters are seeking.

5.  That's a silly comment.  I granted the better facilities and equipment in my post that you quoted.

You're really out of touch.

[BDGiant93]

43 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

Explain why.....be specific.  

Anyone can say someone is wrong.

@Bobref pretty much nailed it.

[BTF]

13 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

@Bobref pretty much nailed it.

Agree 100%.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, TrojanDad said:

That is an easy way out.  BD has a massive football program.  A significant number of players continue playing after high school.  So I have to guess you are thinking of other programs outside of Wayne Township.

1) Does BD lose a number of really good players to jobs?  If not BD, do you feel that is pretty common to the point programs are significantly impacted?  I'm not disagreeing...would be good to share specific examples.

2) Clinics and camps....this one I can see...although I have personally seen a number of BD players visible at camps over the years.  Especially those on the recruiting trail.  I don't disagree with Grover that camps are questionable about how much skill is developed when compared to their own program development.  (what value do they really bring other than to be seen by folks at the next level)

3) BD has had outstanding coaches over the years...I mean outstanding...and most of the head coaches remained around for awhile.  I can see where other smaller programs/budgets might have difficulty in retaining coaches.  I can also see this in rural areas or any program that is not considered elite.

4) Won't disagree about impact of stable families and food to eat.  (including quality food)  How much does quality nutrition play vs. God given talent, hard work, etc.??  That's an interesting question.  Obviously all are desired.

5) BD has incredible facilities....so again, I have to assume you are referencing schools outside of Wayne Township.

If you wish to pile on and add little value in this case, that's your call.  But to say Grover is out of touch is flat out wrong.  His involvement with football has taken him all over this state and beyond.  And not just to certain areas.  Your comment felt like a stereotype.

BD is able to negate their disadvantages spoken of above BECAUSE they have 4500 kids to choose from.  Same with Warren (3800).

Every program/school loses potential athletes due to jobs and other factors but do you think that two schools with greater than 75 percent of their students qualifying for free and reduced lunch would be as successful with CG’s enrollment?

Not.

Even.

Close.

(See Arsenal Tech.)

Edited November 21, 2019 by Guest

[Guest]

On 11/18/2019 at 10:56 PM, JustRules said:

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is a real thing. If you don't have safety as a basis it's hard to have anything else. That doesn't mean you still can't be successfully in a micro sense, but as a macro that's why more affluent schools can have a larger percentage of their good athletes be able to play and focus on football. If it was a guarantee Zionsville and Park Tudor would be dominant, but at Bob said it doesn't always apply. But not worrying about if you can get to games or practices or if you'll have food when you get home are big advantages.

I worked an IPS game one year and they had #65 throwing to #72 in warm-ups. I asked the coach if those were his starting QB and receiver. He said they were today. He never knows until they get on the bus who will be playing that day. Some kids just don't show up. I doubt Carmel or Center Grove ever have that issue. It's not likely at township schools either, but more affluence and more stable home situations can be an advantage.

Zionsville has around 2000 kids, was a 5A school playing in 6A this fall and boasts a free and reduced rate of about 6 percent (lowest public school rate in the state if I am not mistaken).

While not a powerhouse this fall, when they bump back down to 5A, they will be among the favorites annually before eventually moving back up to 6A due to increasing enrollment.

This actually PROVES the theory holds water.

[JustRules]

1 hour ago, Temptation said:

Zionsville has around 2000 kids, was a 5A school playing in 6A this fall and boasts a free and reduced rate of about 6 percent (lowest public school rate in the state if I am not mistaken).

While not a powerhouse this fall, when they bump back down to 5A, they will be among the favorites annually before eventually moving back up to 6A due to increasing enrollment.

This actually PROVES the theory holds water.

They are definitely still good and will be good in 5A but not necessarily any better than similar sized schools with less affluence.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, JustRules said:

They are definitely still good and will be good in 5A but not necessarily any better than similar sized schools with less affluence.

Give it time.  The gap is growing.  The haves and have nots are getting farther apart.  

[Staxawax]

8 hours ago, Temptation said:

Zionsville has around 2000 kids, was a 5A school playing in 6A this fall and boasts a free and reduced rate of about 6 percent (lowest public school rate in the state if I am not mistaken).

While not a powerhouse this fall, when they bump back down to 5A, they will be among the favorites annually before eventually moving back up to 6A due to increasing enrollment.

This actually PROVES the theory holds water.

This is a bunch of  crap mis-information.  Zionsville is 6A because of enrollment.  And, they will only get bigger.  They are in 6A to stay.

[hhpatriot04]

In a generation, Zionsville has grown from 3A to 6A. I'm not that familiar about the Westside. What's going on? 

 

 

[HoosierFB_JG]

2 hours ago, hhpatriot04 said:

In a generation, Zionsville has grown from 3A to 6A. I'm not that familiar about the Westside. What's going on? 

 

 

Zionsville is the town right next to Carmel. More and more families have moved to the burbs, ZVille is one of the nicest places to live in America.  They have plenty of space to grow, so there ya have it!