How did New Pal Slip So Quickly?

[TheStatGuy]

1 minute ago, Gipper said:

Oops...

So the sky isn’t falling...

He just doesn't look stuff up or doesn't understand how things go in the football world. 

[Gipper]

10 minutes ago, TheStatGuy said:

He just doesn't look stuff up or doesn't understand how things go in the football world. 

But although a 4-1 record can be excused, I really do believe athletics are cyclical.  It’s really hard to always stay on top.  Some classes will be next-level good, others not so much.  But here’s the deal, life goes on.

[PhilLee]

3 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

There’s a certain school on the East Side of Indianapolis licking their chops hoping New Pal makes it out of sectionals....

Yes a school that should be playing in 6A.  Playing against a 4A school, playing up a class, with a lot of new faces and starting a freshmen RB. 

[Footballking16]

6 hours ago, PhilLee said:

Yes a school that should be playing in 6A.  Playing against a 4A school, playing up a class, with a lot of new faces and starting a freshmen RB. 

Sounds like New Pal the last 4-5 years....

[FastpacedO]

7 hours ago, PhilLee said:

Yes a school that should be playing in 6A.  Playing against a 4A school, playing up a class, with a lot of new faces and starting a freshmen RB. 

Actually both schools are similar in size of enrollment New Palestine 1,175 Cathedral 1,099. Classification goes by total enrollment and both are 4A schools playing in 5A after the success factor. 

[FastpacedO]

12 hours ago, OldschoolFB said:

They graduated everyone. AND, correct me if I’m wrong, Coach Ralph changed his offense to fit The Big Fella.  I believe Coach Ralph likes to spread it out.  If that’s the case, these kids have yet to run that O, add the fact that they don’t have experience and it’s possible to have a down Sr class too.  Add it all up and you get a mediocre 4-1.   Having said that, I would not want to draw New Pal in the Sectionals. 

No Coach Ralph didn't change his offense to fit the big fella. They have run the same offense since he has been at New Pal. When he had a couple special QB's they had a few more passing yards, but they still threw the ball with CS. They have always ran inside and outside zone with or without CS. Coach Ralph did a really cool thing during the shutdown going through games over his time.

The sky isn't falling for New Pal, I mean they are 4-1 played a good one with Mt. Vernon who looks to be pretty darn good. Who knows what happened in the GC game. Could have had a bad game (that can happen with young players learning), could have had players out (injury/covid), G-C could be making excellent strides. I know New Pal lost a lot of very good players to graduation (I believe entire secondary). That being said it doesn't mean as tournament play comes or even next year the players filling those holes won't continue to get better as they continue to be very well coached and gain precious game experience.

[BDGiant93]

16 hours ago, DT said:

Kind of like 70-27.  Thats another shocking score.  One that will be remembered.

Not sure what that has to do with New Pal. The score you are speaking of, if I am correct, is Warren's 70-27 win over Ben Davis in 2018. Ben Davis is 2-1 vs. Warren since that time including a win when Warren was #1. BD also has a MIC title and a final four appearance. I know you keep forgetting last season occurred. 

Talent ebbs and flows. Experience plays in the MIC. The 2018 team at BD was largely made up of youngsters or players who had not much in the way of varsity reps the previous years. Warren's 2018 team was one of the best in Indiana since at least 2010 and arguably this century. 

I know you will chalk this up as me making excuses, but it happens.

I'm sure New Pal is dealing with the normal cycle that should normally happen in a school of their size. The days of complete and sustained dominance are over. Very few teams have been immune no matter the class.

That's just my two cents, though.

[hhpatriot04]

23 hours ago, BDGiant93 said:

Not sure what that has to do with New Pal. The score you are speaking of, if I am correct, is Warren's 70-27 win over Ben Davis in 2018. Ben Davis is 2-1 vs. Warren since that time including a win when Warren was #1. BD also has a MIC title and a final four appearance. I know you keep forgetting last season occurred. 

Talent ebbs and flows. Experience plays in the MIC. The 2018 team at BD was largely made up of youngsters or players who had not much in the way of varsity reps the previous years. Warren's 2018 team was one of the best in Indiana since at least 2010 and arguably this century. 

I know you will chalk this up as me making excuses, but it happens.

I'm sure New Pal is dealing with the normal cycle that should normally happen in a school of their size. The days of complete and sustained dominance are over. Very few teams have been immune no matter the class.

That's just my two cents, though.

Chatard is possibly the exception to that rule. Eventually, they'll stay up in 4A and have to contend in the sectional with Roncalli (assuming they remain in 4A).

[BDGiant93]

57 minutes ago, hhpatriot04 said:

Chatard is possibly the exception to that rule. Eventually, they'll stay up in 4A and have to contend in the sectional with Roncalli (assuming they remain in 4A).

At the risk of starting another argument altogether, Chatard is not a public school...though the parishes that feed Chatard must be chock full of football talent.

[Gipper]

On 9/30/2020 at 7:04 AM, BDGiant93 said:

Not sure what that has to do with New Pal. The score you are speaking of, if I am correct, is Warren's 70-27 win over Ben Davis in 2018. Ben Davis is 2-1 vs. Warren since that time including a win when Warren was #1. BD also has a MIC title and a final four appearance. I know you keep forgetting last season occurred. 

Talent ebbs and flows. Experience plays in the MIC. The 2018 team at BD was largely made up of youngsters or players who had not much in the way of varsity reps the previous years. Warren's 2018 team was one of the best in Indiana since at least 2010 and arguably this century. 

I know you will chalk this up as me making excuses, but it happens.

I'm sure New Pal is dealing with the normal cycle that should normally happen in a school of their size. The days of complete and sustained dominance are over. Very few teams have been immune no matter the class.

That's just my two cents, though.

I couldn’t agree more.  Parity is replacing the juggernaut in most cases.

[hhpatriot04]

2 hours ago, BDGiant93 said:

At the risk of starting another argument altogether, Chatard is not a public school...though the parishes that feed Chatard must be chock full of football talent.

Township schools, as you know, enjoy *some* of the benefits of P/Ps and Marion County donut county schools like CG, NP, Zionsville, Carmel, Fischers, Westfield, etc. enjoy. Especially in the age of open enrollment. 

[BDGiant93]

1 hour ago, hhpatriot04 said:

Township schools, as you know, enjoy *some* of the benefits of P/Ps and Marion County donut county schools like CG, NP, Zionsville, Carmel, Fischers, Westfield, etc. enjoy. Especially in the age of open enrollment. 

Again, I didn't want to start a p/p argument. I know Chatard has a history of excellence, and it's well-earned.

[Indiana Fan]

On 9/29/2020 at 2:42 PM, DT said:

The loss to Mt Vernon was shocking for many, but in my view, the narrow 17-14 win over Greenfield Central is the even more surprising outcome.

Mt Vernon is a rising power and built to be the next dominant program in the HHC.  

Greenfield Central is 1-3 this year, and has lost 11 straight to New Pal by some horrifically lopsided scores , including these past 5 contests between the two schools 

2019  68-0

2018   76-6

2017    59-3

2016    84-21

2015    77-20

 

GC is 5-26 over the past 3 seasons.  

Can you imagine the reaction had GC pulled off the upset?

Is NP only a 3 point better program than GC?

Whats the scoop?

And might the current reality give Coach R reason to look into some other opportunities?

Relax!! lol. It is high school football, sometimes there just are not as good of players in the building. New Pal still has a great program. Sheesh

[dmizers3]

On 9/29/2020 at 2:42 PM, DT said:

The loss to Mt Vernon was shocking for many, but in my view, the narrow 17-14 win over Greenfield Central is the even more surprising outcome.

Mt Vernon is a rising power and built to be the next dominant program in the HHC.  

Greenfield Central is 1-3 this year, and has lost 11 straight to New Pal by some horrifically lopsided scores , including these past 5 contests between the two schools 

2019  68-0

2018   76-6

2017    59-3

2016    84-21

2015    77-20

 

GC is 5-26 over the past 3 seasons.  

Can you imagine the reaction had GC pulled off the upset?

Is NP only a 3 point better program than GC?

Whats the scoop?

And might the current reality give Coach R reason to look into some other opportunities?

When you graduate 22 seniors from a varsity roster in the 40s that tends to have a major impact.   Don't care how great the coach or program has become, a 50% roster turnover plus a team thats been decimated by early season injuries makes it tough to keep up the ridiculous standard that has been established at New Pal. 

On 9/29/2020 at 8:49 PM, Footballking16 said:

There’s a certain school on the East Side of Indianapolis licking their chops hoping New Pal makes it out of sectionals....

If that happens I expect the score to be more lopsided in the opposite direction than last year. Similar to last year the teams aren't on the same level but I'd say the difference is more significant this year.

[Footballking16]

21 minutes ago, dmizers3 said:

If that happens I expect the score to be more lopsided in the opposite direction than last year. Similar to last year the teams aren't on the same level but I'd say the difference is more significant this year.

Same level? Cathedral was some bad play-calling inside the 5 yard line away from taking a two score lead into the 4th quarter. Game got out of hand quickly but I don't think there was much talent disparity between the two, if any at all. Cathedral dictated that game for nearly 3 quarters and couldn't finish a drive before the wheels came off. 

[CaptainHook]

High school football at a public school with 4A enrollment is cyclical.  The Dragons graduated 22 seniors last year, including the state's all-time leading rusher that had D1 offers and chose to walk on at IU.  They also graduated 3 starting OL, including Michigan State's Kyle King.  They graduated their ENTIRE secondary and 7 of their top 8 WR.

Everyone knew this would be a rebuilding year at NP.  I had hoped the sophomore class would be ready to step in, but the virus ruined that.  Less weight training and conditioning, no 7 v 7, no scrimmages.  And it's shown.  Not a great year to be inexperienced in a lot of key spots.

Finally, injuries . . . the Dragons have been very fortunate with injuries the last two years.  And seem to be paying the piper this year.  NP has lost three starters for the season.  8 more starters have missed multiple games due to injury.  That's 11 starters that have missed significant part of the season.  Some significant depth is also injured.  In the GF game, the Dragons were missing 7 starters.  The QB for the Dragons in the JV game hasn't played QB since third grade.  It's been just a MASH unit.  But that's just the way football is.  You strap up and play with what you've got.

That being said, the Dragons have been competitive in every game and are 4-1 for goodness sake.

 

[Gipper]

1 hour ago, CaptainHook said:

High school football at a public school with 4A enrollment is cyclical.  The Dragons graduated 22 seniors last year, including the state's all-time leading rusher that had D1 offers and chose to walk on at IU.  They also graduated 3 starting OL, including Michigan State's Kyle King.  They graduated their ENTIRE secondary and 7 of their top 8 WR.

Everyone knew this would be a rebuilding year at NP.  I had hoped the sophomore class would be ready to step in, but the virus ruined that.  Less weight training and conditioning, no 7 v 7, no scrimmages.  And it's shown.  Not a great year to be inexperienced in a lot of key spots.

Finally, injuries . . . the Dragons have been very fortunate with injuries the last two years.  And seem to be paying the piper this year.  NP has lost three starters for the season.  8 more starters have missed multiple games due to injury.  That's 11 starters that have missed significant part of the season.  Some significant depth is also injured.  In the GF game, the Dragons were missing 7 starters.  The QB for the Dragons in the JV game hasn't played QB since third grade.  It's been just a MASH unit.  But that's just the way football is.  You strap up and play with what you've got.

That being said, the Dragons have been competitive in every game and are 4-1 for goodness sake.

 

You hit the nail on the head, high school football is cyclical at the 4A level...if not all levels, especially 1 & 2A.  Big classes of FBS talent (or just high numbers) can be on the roster one year and then pickings can be slim the next.  Nobody gets all the cards.

[CaptainHook]

On 9/29/2020 at 5:00 PM, DT said:

Maybe a little karma at play.  NP was the bully of the conference when they poached CS away from a solid Delta program.  It completely destroyed the competitive nature of the conference and whatever equilibrium and competitive balance existed at the time.

 

 

I know who the poster is, but this is such an uneducated and frankly stupid post, I am going to reply.

Transfer happen. ALL THE TIME. At ALL schools. Three of Mt. Vernon’s top players are transfers. Two from inside the conference. Including their QB. Their top WR transferred from IL so he could play football his senior year. I have no problem with it. Play ball.

The fact DT chooses this one example to complain about not only shows how little he know about the HHC, but the state of high school football across the state.

[crimsonace1]

As soon as I saw this thread topic, I knew our forum's "let's take today's ridiculous hot take that has no basis in fact and throw it against the wall" poster had started it. 

New Palestine was a historically good team the last two years. Last year's team also had 20+ seniors and graduated the state's career rushing and scoring leader, three of their top four receivers, an OL/DL who is now playing in the Big Ten, and their *entire* secondary. It's a mid-4A-sized public school that is 4-1. It was pretty widely known they'd be rebuilding a bit after graduating that much last year. Add to that, they've dealt with a number of injuries that has decimated their depth. 

Despite that, they're 4-1 (and they held a 3:1 yardage advantage in last week's game, but the opponent is much improved and they were very opportunistic). The JV is 5-0 and has won its games by a combined score of 152-20, both junior high teams were very successful and NP has one of the largest elementary leagues in the state. One three-game stretch is not enough to start claiming the program is "in decline" when it's not. 

[crimsonace1]

3 minutes ago, CaptainHook said:

I know who the poster is, but this is such an uneducated and frankly stupid post, I am going to reply.

Transfer happen. ALL THE TIME. At ALL schools. Three of Mt. Vernon’s top players are transfers. Two from inside the conference. Including their QB. Their top WR transferred from IL so he could play football his senior year. I have no problem with it. Play ball.

The fact DT chooses this one example to complain about not only shows how little he know about the HHC, but the state of high school football across the state.

"Uneducated and frankly stupid" is par for the course. 

New Palestine DOES NOT RECRUIT. Nobody "poached" anyone from any school. The east suburbs of Indianapolis (especially the MV/NP areas) are rapidly-growing suburbs, and in the case of the player being referred to, it was an opportunity to move the family business closer to Indianapolis (and closer to home). That was very well-documented in the Muncie paper. Nobody from New Palestine even knew they were thinking of coming until they moved and enrolled. 

[crimsonace1]

On 9/30/2020 at 7:18 AM, FastpacedO said:

No Coach Ralph didn't change his offense to fit the big fella. They have run the same offense since he has been at New Pal. When he had a couple special QB's they had a few more passing yards, but they still threw the ball with CS. They have always ran inside and outside zone with or without CS. Coach Ralph did a really cool thing during the shutdown going through games over his time.

It's the exact same offense and defense they have run for eight seasons. The basic concepts have never changed. You might throw it more when you have a QB and a bunch of receivers, or might rely more heavily on the run when you have a 10,000-yard back, but the structure of the offense has not changed and is run at every level down to middle school. 

[FastpacedO]

1 hour ago, CaptainHook said:

High school football at a public school with 4A enrollment is cyclical.  The Dragons graduated 22 seniors last year, including the state's all-time leading rusher that had D1 offers and chose to walk on at IU.  They also graduated 3 starting OL, including Michigan State's Kyle King.  They graduated their ENTIRE secondary and 7 of their top 8 WR.

Everyone knew this would be a rebuilding year at NP.  I had hoped the sophomore class would be ready to step in, but the virus ruined that.  Less weight training and conditioning, no 7 v 7, no scrimmages.  And it's shown.  Not a great year to be inexperienced in a lot of key spots.

Finally, injuries . . . the Dragons have been very fortunate with injuries the last two years.  And seem to be paying the piper this year.  NP has lost three starters for the season.  8 more starters have missed multiple games due to injury.  That's 11 starters that have missed significant part of the season.  Some significant depth is also injured.  In the GF game, the Dragons were missing 7 starters.  The QB for the Dragons in the JV game hasn't played QB since third grade.  It's been just a MASH unit.  But that's just the way football is.  You strap up and play with what you've got.

That being said, the Dragons have been competitive in every game and are 4-1 for goodness sake.

 

Totally agree. Also on the side of injuries, I think injuries can be attributed to the lack of off-season too. That being said injuries can just be dumb luck too. You can go a couple years with minimal inuries and you can have a year where starting players drop like flies,

[Guest DT]

40 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said:

"Uneducated and frankly stupid" is par for the course. 

New Palestine DOES NOT RECRUIT. Nobody "poached" anyone from any school. The east suburbs of Indianapolis (especially the MV/NP areas) are rapidly-growing suburbs, and in the case of the player being referred to, it was an opportunity to move the family business closer to Indianapolis (and closer to home). That was very well-documented in the Muncie paper. Nobody from New Palestine even knew they were thinking of coming until they moved and enrolled. 

I find this very hard to believe.  You really think that the vast majority of readers on this forum believe that suddenly the states all time leading rusher just showed up out of nowhere?  Cmon.  get real my man.  This was a highly thought out, targeted and calculated move.  It did indeed destroy the equilibrium in the conference.  The IHSAA should have considered denying the transfer request due to reasons of upsetting competitive balance in the conference.  CS could have statyed at DElta and achieved many of the same results.  Not all, but many, certainly most of the individual accolades. 

[CaptainHook]

1 minute ago, DT said:

I find this very hard to believe.  You really think that the vast majority of readers on this forum believe that suddenly the states all time leading rusher just showed up out of nowhere?  Cmon.  get real my man.  This was a highly thought out, targeted and calculated move.  It did indeed destroy the equilibrium in the conference.  The IHSAA should have considered denying the transfer request due to reasons of upsetting competitive balance in the conference.  CS could have statyed at DElta and achieved many of the same results.  Not all, but many, certainly most of the individual accolades. 

When you run a good program, football players move in or transfer. Why is that hard to understand?

[Guest DT]

4 minutes ago, CaptainHook said:

When you run a good program, football players move in or transfer. Why is that hard to understand?

I get that.  BUt dont try to tell us that CS just fell out of the transfer apple tree and landed in the NP backfield.  Thats preposterous.  This was a calculated family move.  Im aware that these moves happen fairly regularly.  But this move absolutely decimated the competitive balance in the conference.   Do you really think it was good and healthy for the HHC to watch one of its schools physically destroy  all the others over a two year period?

I dont think so.

 

Edited October 2, 2020 by DT