Proposal to Make Enrollment based Adjustments to Class 5A and 6A

[temptation]

30 minutes ago, Grover said:

This is why I am convinced the real goal of these proposals is to get the big bullies out of the way of the supporters' favorite schools.  

Don't have a favorite school and am not fully on board with this proposal.  But as I have said, 6A is pretty damn boring.

[Footballking16]

17 minutes ago, temptation said:

Don't have a favorite school and am not fully on board with this proposal.  But as I have said, 6A is pretty damn boring.

Is 6A any less boring if the 8 smallest enrollment teams are moved to 5A?

[Guest DT]

55 minutes ago, Grover said:

I'm still waiting for you to back up this claim.

 

We've come to expect different and more of CG.  Now you are acting just like "them."  

 

 

Just now, Footballking16 said:

Is 6A any less boring if the 8 smallest enrollment teams are moved to 5A?

Is Merrillville and Columbus North football more boring to their respective supporters than Cathedral football is to Irish fans?

Shame on you

[Footballking16]

28 minutes ago, DT said:

Is Merrillville and Columbus North football more boring to their respective supporters than Cathedral football is to Irish fans?

Shame on you

I don't care about Columbus North or Merrillville one way or the other. But moving either of those schools out of 6A does nothing to change the dynamics of 6A. 

[Guest DT]

Just now, Footballking16 said:

I don't care about Columbus North or Merrillville one way or the other. But moving either of those schools out of 6A does nothing to change the dynamics of 6A. 

You are truly a blockhead.  We are not trying to change 6A.  We are trying to change 5A.  Haven't you figured that out yet?

 

 

 

[Footballking16]

22 minutes ago, DT said:

You are truly a blockhead.  We are not trying to change 6A.  We are trying to change 5A.  Haven't you figured that out yet?

 

 

 

 

Does 5A need changed? I thought we already changed 5A with the implementation of a 6th class. No?

And to be fair it doesn't sound like you're trying to change 5A, it sounds like you want to change the fortunes of a handful of schools. Big difference. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Footballking16

[Grover]

42 minutes ago, DT said:

We've come to expect different and more of CG.  Now you are acting just like "them."  

I got falsely accused of saying something and you are coming after me. Classic. 

[Grover]

30 minutes ago, DT said:

We are not trying to change 6A.  We are trying to change 5A.  Haven't you figured that out yet?

I’ve repeatedly read posts about the biggest 6A schools having twice the enrollment of the smaller 6A schools and how this plan is supposed to be addressing that. I’ve also read about how the smallest 8 schools would now have a chance at a trophy. 
 

Sounds like trying to fix 6A to me. 

[BTF]

2 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Is 6A any less boring if the 8 smallest enrollment teams are moved to 5A?

No, but 5A becomes way more interesting. 

2 hours ago, Grover said:

This is why I am convinced the real goal of these proposals is to get the big bullies out of the way of the supporters' favorite schools.  

Elaborate if you don't mind. Go into a bit more detail. 

[Footballking16]

1 hour ago, BTF said:

Elaborate if you don't mind. Go into a bit more detail

Put Souhthport, CN, and LC in a sectional w Cathedral and/or Roncalli. Tell me how it gets more interesting? Chesterton w Valpo?  I’m waiting.

[Grover]

1 hour ago, BTF said:

Elaborate if you don't mind. Go into a bit more detail. 

The motive first became obvious to me when they formed 6A.  After CG beat Whiteland I read an editorial saying how unfair it was that Whiteland was in the same class as Carmel and there was no way a school with 1,800 kids should play a school with 5,000.  I read that and laughed because CG was 2,200 at the time.  Forming 6A served Whiteland no purpose other than clearing some superior teams from its path.  If it was truly about fairness or risk of injury then you don't leave the 2,200 enrollment school to play the 5,000 enrollment school.

The proposal being discussed here is perhaps a little better thought out but still has the same motive in my opinion.

[BTF]

20 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Put Souhthport, CN, and LC in a sectional w Cathedral and/or Roncalli. Tell me how it gets more interesting? Chesterton w Valpo?  I’m waiting.

I really don't concern myself with the south much. But having Valpo, Merrillville, Lafayette Jeff, Zionsville, and Warsaw as staples in the north vs Snider and Dwenger? Now you have some interesting matchups. Lol, that wasn't too hard. 

[BTF]

14 minutes ago, Grover said:

I read that and laughed because CG was 2,200 at the time.  

Count your blessings for having a guy like Eric Moore. Not everyone gets to have a Nick Saben or a Bill Belichick. We'll see what the Center Grove community is made of when Moore retires. Can the Center Grove football program sustain a couple more decades of success after he leaves? There's only a handful of communities who've sustained success for five decades, and Center Grove isn't one of them.................yet. Kudos to them for building what they have over the past two decades. Whether or not it continues remains to be seen.

Laughing at a school  of 1800 because they don't want to play a school of 5000 seems a bit arrogant. 

[Grover]

1 minute ago, BTF said:

Count your blessings for having a guy like Eric Moore. Not everyone gets to have a Nick Saben or a Bill Belichick. We'll see what the Center Grove community is made of when Moore retires. Can the Center Grove football program sustain a couple more decades of success after he leaves? There's only a handful of communities who've sustained success for five decades, and Center Grove isn't one of them.................yet. Kudos to them for building what they have over the past two decades. Whether or not it continues remains to be seen.

Laughing at a school  of 1800 because they don't want to play a school of 5000 seems a bit arrogant. 

Why do you twist everything I type?  I never said I laughed at Whiteland.  I laughed at the editorial.  Good Lord man.

As to Coach Moore, trust me that I know where we came from.  I was acquainted with CG football for nearly 30 years before Coach got here.  We never made the playoffs in the old cluster system.  Got hot in '87 and made the final four only to get crushed by BD in some of the coldest rain ever.  Most of those 30 years was mired in mediocrity.  Other than 1975 when we went undefeated and didn't make the playoffs we never complained about the system.  We understood that we needed to get better...we just didn't know how.  Coach Moore changed that.  Whoever replaces him will be inferior but he built a program rather than a team so it will survive.

[BTF]

3 minutes ago, Grover said:

Whoever replaces him will be inferior but he built a program rather than a team so it will survive.

I wouldn't bet against it. I saw an eight year old kid a few weeks ago here in Fort Wayne wearing and Eric Moore tee shirt. He seems to have everyone, and I mean everyone, bought in. 

[Footballking16]

1 hour ago, BTF said:

I really don't concern myself with the south much. But having Valpo, Merrillville, Lafayette Jeff, Zionsville, and Warsaw as staples in the north vs Snider and Dwenger? Now you have some interesting matchups. Lol, that wasn't too hard. 

Put Carmel South permanently and the problem is solved  

1 hour ago, BTF said:

Count your blessings for having a guy like Eric Moore. Not everyone gets to have a Nick Saben or a Bill Belichick. We'll see what the Center Grove community is made of when Moore retires. Can the Center Grove football program sustain a couple more decades of success after he leaves? There's only a handful of communities who've sustained success for five decades, and Center Grove isn't one of them.................yet. Kudos to them for building what they have over the past two decades. Whether or not it continues remains to be seen.

Laughing at a school  of 1800 because they don't want to play a school of 5000 seems a bit arrogant. 

Name the school of 1800 that plays the school of 5000 (Carmel)?

[Justasportsfan]

33 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Put Carmel South permanently and the problem is solved  

Name the school of 1800 that plays the school of 5000 (Carmel)?

Think it may have been referring to grovers Whiteland post above..if Snider ever matched up with carmel again that could also be the case yet I believe the panther program would/will always welcome the challenge..I posted a few months ago suggesting the largest (possibly best) class have first rd sectional championship games..two large communities going for hardware from jump..I don't want to water down titles..giving more communities/programs opportunities to win in the post season will help grow n sustain the sport n whatever helps get more kids on the gridiron is what id vote for..

[Bash Riprock]

6 hours ago, DT said:

You are truly a blockhead.  

 

 

 

 

Lecture others?  I see lots of yellow laundry on the field!!!  Back ‘em up!!  

[Guest DT]

22 minutes ago, Justasportsfan said:

Think it may have been referring to grovers Whiteland post above..if Snider ever matched up with carmel again that could also be the case yet I believe the panther program would/will always welcome the challenge..I posted a few months ago suggesting the largest (possibly best) class have first rd sectional championship games..two large communities going for hardware from jump..I don't want to water down titles..giving more communities/programs opportunities to win in the post season will help grow n sustain the sport n whatever helps get more kids on the gridiron is what id vote for..

The Whiteland football community is aggressively planning and preparing for the eventual move up the ladder to 6A football.  

[BTF]

9 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Put Carmel South permanently and the problem is solved  

Name the school of 1800 that plays the school of 5000 (Carmel)?

He was referring to Whiteland.

[Bobref]

13 hours ago, Grover said:

I’ve also read about how the smallest 8 schools would now have a chance at a trophy. 
Sounds like trying to fix 6A to me. 

Any change in 6A is likely to be so small as to be undetectable. Look up the smallest 8 schools in 6A and see what they’ve done in the 6A tournament. But move them into 5A and you have the potential to dramatically affect how that tournament proceeds. The change will be in 5A, not 6A.

[Bash Riprock]

20 minutes ago, Bobref said:

Any change in 6A is likely to be so small as to be undetectable. Look up the smallest 8 schools in 6A and see what they’ve done in the 6A tournament. But move them into 5A and you have the potential to dramatically affect how that tournament proceeds. The change will be in 5A, not 6A.

Then why stop at the bottom 8?  There isn't much of a disparity in enrollment from the bottom 8 up to the 12th largest school in the state.  If its really about enrollment disparity, then don't draw an arbitrary line at the bottom 8.  Unless the real motive is to keep certain schools out of 6A, while ensuring others remain in 6A, just to increase trophy chances for certain schools.

Doing that would dramatically affect both 5A and 6A.

https://www.ihsaa.org/Schools/Enrollments-Classifications

FB16 is spot on....this really isn't about enrollment disparity.  Its more about certain key schools that have been successful in 6A...its about keeping Carmel in the south so the MIC and HCC eliminate each other.  Only 4 of the top 11 schools have played for 6A state titles in recent years, along with another school coming in at #17.  

I understand not everyone wants to get in the ring with a bigger boy.  So lets take the bottom 8 in 6A, move them down....and ensure they are one of the biggest boys.  Let the other schools not much larger than the bottom 8 fend for themselves in the big boy ring.  Just as long as my team has a better chance of sectional hardware....that's all that matters. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Bash Riprock

[Bobref]

6 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

Then why stop at the bottom 8?  There isn't much of a disparity in enrollment from the bottom 8 up to the 12th largest school in the state.  If its really about enrollment disparity, then don't draw an arbitrary line at the bottom 8.  Unless the real motive is to keep certain schools out of 6A, while ensuring others remain in 6A, just to increase trophy chances for certain schools.

Doing that would dramatically affect both 5A and 6A.

https://www.ihsaa.org/Schools/Enrollments-Classifications

FB16 is spot on....this really isn't about enrollment disparity.  Its more about certain key schools that have been successful in 6A...its about keeping Carmel in the south so the MIC and HCC eliminate each other.  Only 4 of the top 11 schools have played for 6A state titles in recent years, along with another school coming in at #17.  

I understand not everyone wants to get in the ring with a bigger boy.  So lets take the bottom 8 in 6A, move them down....and ensure they are one of the biggest boys.  Let the other schools not much larger than the bottom 8 fend for themselves in the big boy ring.  Just as long as my team has a better chance of sectional hardware....that's all that matters. 

I get it. Football is a zero sum game. Anything one competitor gets, another has to give up. I’m fine with leaving 6A the way it is. Just wanted to point out that the effect of the proposal would be felt in 5A, not 6A.

[Grover]

3 hours ago, Bobref said:

Any change in 6A is likely to be so small as to be undetectable. Look up the smallest 8 schools in 6A and see what they’ve done in the 6A tournament. But move them into 5A and you have the potential to dramatically affect how that tournament proceeds. The change will be in 5A, not 6A.

Actually the change would be for the teams being moved down.  Neither 5A nor 6A would be improved.

[hhpatriot04]

I've said it before in different ways, but... The IHSAA needs to learn about standard deviation and bell curves.

- 1A should have 16-32 teams (white)

- 6A should have 16-24 teams (white)

- 2A to 5A should have the remainder with class lines set by deviations (the other colors)