Proposal to Make Enrollment based Adjustments to Class 5A and 6A

[BTF]

2 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

Not to sound cruel but there are lots of schools who are an afterthought in tournament time. Some years, that's been everybody but one school in a class. 

But then when someone dominates, where do we draw the line? How many trophies do we hand out? 

That's easy for you to say because your school is the second largest in the state and your trophy box is already full. No disrespect 93, your a good poster on this site. I just HIGHLY disagree with you on this. 

[oldtimeqb]

By limiting 6A to 24, the end result will be a more competitive 5A.  Nothing would be changed much at 6A, because the same 8-10 schools will be in contention every year.

The success factor was introduced roughly the same time, or maybe it was even at exactly the same time - my memory is fuzzy. But the SF point system to "stay up" has been modified once or twice since then.  

After a decade or so of 6A football, I see no problem modifying it as well to improve competition at the 5A level.  What makes 32 the magic number?  

 

[BTF]

16 minutes ago, DT said:

In my view, the inclusion of Col N, Merrillville, Chesterton, Valpo, Jeffersonville, Warsaw, Southport, Laf Jeff make 5A an extremely interesting class.  Right now these schools are an afterthought in the postseason.

Thats not right

I couldn't agree more. You and I are on the same page on this. The teams you mention fit in perfectly with Snider and Dwenger. Let the champion move up to 6A for a couple of years to test the waters at the next level as the success factor is intended.

[BDGiant93]

Just now, BTF said:

That's easy for you to say because your school is the second largest in the state and your trophy box is already full. No disrespect 93, your a good poster on this site. I just HIGHLY disagree with you on this. 

That's fine, and I appreciate the comments. No disrespect is taken. I can see the sides on this. I don't like the word slippery slope, but I do think that the lines have to be drawn somewhere. Someone is always going to be #24 or #32 or #65, etc.

I've advocated making the classes based on some sort of success factor completely. If a large enrollment school does not have a history of success, it can drop classes, for example. This way 6A would become the top 32 best teams...by some measure. Don't know how you figure that out.

[BTF]

2 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

That's fine, and I appreciate the comments. No disrespect is taken. I can see the sides on this. I don't like the word slippery slope, but I do think that the lines have to be drawn somewhere. Someone is always going to be #24 or #32 or #65, etc.

I've advocated making the classes based on some sort of success factor completely. If a large enrollment school does not have a history of success, it can drop classes, for example. This way 6A would become the top 32 best teams...by some measure. Don't know how you figure that out.

Great idea, but right now I think the IHSAA has their hands full with determining whether or not to change the overall numbers in 6A. I agree that 24 teams isn't perfect, but at least we are giving the bottom eight a morsel of a chance. Does that stink for the #24 team? Probably. But yes, a line has to be drawn somewhere. 

[Guest DT]

56 minutes ago, BTF said:

Great idea, but right now I think the IHSAA has their hands full with determining whether or not to change the overall numbers in 6A. I agree that 24 teams isn't perfect, but at least we are giving the bottom eight a morsel of a chance. Does that stink for the #24 team? Probably. But yes, a line has to be drawn somewhere. 

Another positive consequence of the reduction of Class 6A to 24 schools is that you are consolidating the Class to the major Tier 1 population centers in the state.  

#1 Indianapolis Metro  2.2M population / 17 schools in 6A   (BD/CG/WC/CA/LN/LC/PK/NC/FI/HSE/BB/AV/NOB/WF/FC/ZV/PM

#2 Northwest Indiana  500,000 population / 3 schools    (LC/CP/POR)

#3 South Bend/Elkhart/Mishawaka population  420,000  / 2 schools  (PN/ELK)

#4 Fort Wayne Metro   420,000 population  / 2 schools   (HM/CAR)

This takes all the Tier 2 population centers like Lafayette, Columbus, Bloomington,  Evansville, Terre Haute, Muncie permanently out of the mega class 

Edited August 12, 2021 by DT

[Bash Riprock]

20 hours ago, DT said:

The # of mega schools in the state is growing.

When Class 6A was implemented, there were 5 schools with 3000 plus enrollment,  BD/WC/CA/NC/Penn

Today you can add the following schools to the 3000 enrollment list, with a few just a hundred or so short of reaching that milestone :

HSE/Fishers/Lake Central/Noblesville/Pike/Avon/Brownsburg/Crown Point

4 or 5 of the schools on that list feel they have what it takes to grab at title away from The Big 4.  Schools in the 2500-2900 range are going to have to become football factories like Center Grove if they expect to compete with the Super Megas.  

 

Are you sure?....I am counting 8 schools in 2013 when 6A was implemented.  Carmel has certainly grown.  They were #2 at that time.

https://www.ihsaa.org/Portals/0/ihsaa/documents/quick resources/Football Classifications 2013-15.pdf

I am counting 11 schools now...but they don't inlcude some of the ones you mentioned.

https://www.ihsaa.org/Portals/0/ihsaa/documents/quick resources/Enrollments & Classifications/football schools 19-20.pdf

 

If we analyze the top 11 schools, how many of those schools currently have dominate or top tier programs?  How many of those schools win a sectional regularly??

Just because some schools increased in size, doesn't mean football dominance followed.

[Bash Riprock]

14 hours ago, BTF said:

The three largest schools winning 15 of the last 20 big school championships isn't just coincidence. 

 

So mess with 6A because of outliers?  How does dropping 8 schools out of 6A solve this?

[BTF]

8 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

So mess with 6A because of outliers?  How does dropping 8 schools out of 6A solve this?

Do I really have to explain it for the tenth time? Did you read this entire thread?

25 minutes ago, Jon said:

If you are going to 24 why not just go to 16. Then move teams up because of success factor. That would be Center Grove and probably Westfield. The decision of which teem to move down should be by success factor not size so schools that have little to no success, such as, Arsenal Technical high school could be moved out of 6a.  If you of the logic of giving more teams at a shot a 5a then this would also give these teems Perry Meridian, Portage, Homestead, Carroll and Lawrence Central a shot. If you going to a 16 team playoff I think it should be a seeded. Also from fan point of view a ten game regular season would be nice since you are potentially losing a playoff game by going to 16 teams.

This is just an Ideal I am throwing out there. There is no easy solution for 6a and no solution that will make everyone happy.

Good post. The IHSAA would make that final decision. 

[BTF]

58 minutes ago, DT said:

Another positive consequence of the reduction of Class 6A to 24 schools is that you are consolidating the Class to the major Tier 1 population centers in the state.  

Great things for the IHSAA to consider. Well said, nothing to add.

[Muda69]

2 hours ago, BDGiant93 said:

I've advocated making the classes based on some sort of success factor completely. If a large enrollment school does not have a history of success, it can drop classes, for example.

A true system of promotion & relegation, with enrollment no longer part of the classification system.  I like it.

 

[Bash Riprock]

1 minute ago, BTF said:

Do I really have to explain it for the tenth time? Did you read this entire thread?

Good post. The IHSAA would make that final decision. 

I sense your frustration...be nice.

Yes I read the entire thread...maybe you just haven't made the sale.

Question...of these bottom 8 6A teams, how many currently would be in the running for a 5A state championship and 6A holds them back from being a contender.  If we agree that this is a small list (very small), is this about inceasing the probability for a sectional title?  Just curious.

[BTF]

10 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

I sense your frustration...be nice.

Yes I read the entire thread...maybe you just haven't made the sale.

Question...of these bottom 8 6A teams, how many currently would be in the running for a 5A state championship and 6A holds them back from being a contender.  If we agree that this is a small list (very small), is this about inceasing the probability for a sectional title?  Just curious.

Six of the eight teams are legitimate contenders in my opinion. It's about increasing the probability of reaching the state finals. Were basically giving eight teams a better chance by allowing them to play similar sized schools..........the same opportunity given to schools in classes 1A, 2A, 3A, 4A, and 5A. 

[Bears62]

Anyone else find it it strange all the people against DT’s proposition are fans of schools like BD, CG, Cathedral and Carmel? These people act like schools like Chesterton and Lafayette Jeff are on the same playing field as Ben Davis. How hard headed and stubborn do you need to be to deny the huge population disadvantages these schools have? This is strictly about giving these 8 programs a more fair shot at a deep tourney run. That’s all. The IHSAA can’t stop the big 4 from putting the best teams on the field and passing the trophy back and forth, but they can at least do their best to balance it as best they see fit. The bullcrap response about participation trophies from Grover is so lame. Talk about being narrow-minded. We get it dude, CG can win it all with 2500 students. They are an outlier. Outliers exist. Do you get off by having schools that have good football programs that could compete with the best in 5a stuck at the bottom of 6a? Or do you just really like the number 32 for some reason? Really weird

[Bash Riprock]

13 minutes ago, BTF said:

Six of the eight teams are legitimate contenders in my opinion. It's about increasing the probability of reaching the state finals. Were basically giving eight teams a better chance by allowing them to play similar sized schools..........the same opportunity given to schools in classes 1A, 2A, 3A, 4A, and 5A. 

I respect your opinion.  We disagree that they 75% of those schools are title contenders in 5A.  That's cool.

Westfield played in the state title game last year in 6A.  Yet they less than 100 students larger than the first of your 8 schools to be moved down, and <300 from the smallest 6A school. (based upon enrollment)  CG won the title last year in 6A with <500 from the smallest 6A school.  (based on enrollment)  How do you explain this?

There are 3 large 6A schools that tend to win or play for state titles on a consistent basis.  Isn't this really about running from the outliers?

BTW, thanks for the discussion....this is an interesting topic and I do appreciate your thoughts.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Bash Riprock

[Guest DT]

1 minute ago, Bash Riprock said:

I respect your opinion.  We disagree that they 75% of those schools are title contenders in 5A.  That's cool.

Westfield played in the state title game last year in 6A.  Yet they less than 100 students larger than the first of your 8 schools to be moved down, and <300 from the smallest 6A school. (based upon enrollment)  CG won the title last year in 6A with <500 from the smallest 6A school.  (based on enrollment)  How do you explain this?

There are 3 large 6A schools that tend to win or play for state titles on a consistent basis.  Isn't this really about running from the outliers?

Westfield will be and already operates like a 3000 student mega school.  Just a matter of time.  And Westfield has the advantage of coming out of the north and avoiding the majority of the top mega schools.

[Guest DT]

6 minutes ago, Bears62 said:

Anyone else find it it strange all the people against DT’s proposition are fans of schools like BD, CG, Cathedral and Carmel? These people act like schools like Chesterton and Lafayette Jeff are on the same playing field as Ben Davis. How hard headed and stubborn do you need to be to deny the huge population disadvantages these schools have? This is strictly about giving these 8 programs a more fair shot at a deep tourney run. That’s all. The IHSAA can’t stop the big 4 from putting the best teams on the field and passing the trophy back and forth, but they can at least do their best to balance it as best they see fit. The bullcrap response about participation trophies from Grover is so lame. Talk about being narrow-minded. We get it dude, CG can win it all with 2500 students. They are an outlier. Outliers exist. Do you get off by having schools that have good football programs that could compete with the best in 5a stuck at the bottom of 6a? Or do you just really like the number 32 for some reason? Really weird

I agree, and Im somewhat surprised at the opinions expressed by the Big MIC powers in this thread.  It appears as if they feel their titles are diluted if they are achieved in a class of 24 rather than 32.  As far as CG is concered, they probably feel that since they put in the work and effort as a small 6A to overcome all the challenges and become a champion, so should all other small 6As.  

[gonzoron]

9 minutes ago, Bears62 said:

This is strictly about giving these 8 programs a more fair shot at a deep tourney run. That’s all

Why not put these 8 teams in their own division then? We could call it 6B.

[Guest DT]

2 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

Why not put these 8 teams in their own division then? We could call it 6B.

Please excuse yourself from this conversation.  

[BTF]

7 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

I respect your opinion.  We disagree that they 75% of those schools are title contenders in 5A.  That's cool.

Westfield played in the state title game last year in 6A.  Yet they less than 100 students larger than the first of your 8 schools to be moved down, and <300 from the smallest 6A school. (based upon enrollment)  CG won the title last year in 6A with <500 from the smallest 6A school.  (based on enrollment)  How do you explain this?

There are 3 large 6A schools that tend to win or play for state titles on a consistent basis.  Isn't this really about running from the outliers?

BTW, thanks for the discussion....this is an interesting topic and I do appreciate your thoughts.

Can you clarify what you are asking? Are you considering Carmel, Ben Davis, and Warren Central the outliers?

Schools representing the north with similar enrollments to Westfield is common place. When Carmel is in the south, the probability of a school from the north, half the enrollment of their southern counterpart, is very high. 

[BTF]

6 minutes ago, DT said:

I agree, and Im somewhat surprised at the opinions expressed by the Big MIC powers in this thread.  It appears as if they feel their titles are diluted if they are achieved in a class of 24 rather than 32.  As far as CG is concered, they probably feel that since they put in the work and effort as a small 6A to overcome all the challenges and become a champion, so should all other small 6As.  

I was thinking the same thing. From the outside looking in, that is the impression that is being given off. Winning the 6A title is no less of a major achievement with 16 teams than it is with 32. It's something to be proud of regardless. 

[gonzoron]

6 minutes ago, DT said:

Please excuse yourself from this conversation.  

No thanks. Just offering an alternative solution for discussion.

[Bears62]

13 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

Why not put these 8 teams in their own division then? We could call it 6B.

Because schools with 1600 students have a much better chance of beating a school with 2100 students than a school of 2100 students does at beating a school of 3000-5200 students. Thought that was obvious 

[BTF]

1 minute ago, Bears62 said:

Because schools with 1600 students have a much better chance of beating a school with 2100 students than a school of 2100 students does at beating a school of 3000-5200 students. Thought that was obvious 

It's best just to pretend his comments don't exist. He brings no value to this discussion. 

[DE]

52 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

A true system of promotion & relegation, with enrollment no longer part of the classification system.  I like it.

 

You know, the more I think about this, the more intriguing it becomes.

Not that I have a say so in the matter, just intriguing.

Thank you again for your thoughts.

2 minutes ago, BTF said:

It's best just to pretend his comments don't exist. He brings no value to this discussion. 

I ran out of like notifications so here you go.  🙂

17 minutes ago, DT said:

Please excuse yourself from this conversation.  

😂