North -South All Star Game

[Bobref]

I understand it was a sh*tshow tonight. What happened?

[oldtimeqb]

12 minutes ago, Bobref said:

I understand it was a sh*tshow tonight. What happened?

Lots of unnecessary extra curriculars.  White hat (who might be a poster here?) gave the coaches a warning.  Another late hit on the next play, so he called the game with just a little over 4 minutes left. 

The only question I have - I get it's an "All Star" game.  However #18 of the South makes an unbelievably athletic interception (42:20 mark of the Youtube video.)  He then proceeds to run to the opposite end zone, spin the ball and dance - joined by his South teammates.  No flag whatsoever.  However the game deteriorated from that point with trash talking and shoving after the play.  Even a North player head-butted a South player and was ejected (1:09:05 mark).  Finally #18 from the South also started the course of events that resulted in the game being called.  (2:52:55 mark).

It's not fair to judge in hindsight, but I wonder if #18 had been flagged in Q1, would the escalation of the trash talk have continued to the end result?  

 

[Bobref]

8 hours ago, oldtimeqb said:

Lots of unnecessary extra curriculars.  White hat (who might be a poster here?) gave the coaches a warning.  Another late hit on the next play, so he called the game with just a little over 4 minutes left. 

The only question I have - I get it's an "All Star" game.  However #18 of the South makes an unbelievably athletic interception (42:20 mark of the Youtube video.)  He then proceeds to run to the opposite end zone, spin the ball and dance - joined by his South teammates.  No flag whatsoever.  However the game deteriorated from that point with trash talking and shoving after the play.  Even a North player head-butted a South player and was ejected (1:09:05 mark).  Finally #18 from the South also started the course of events that resulted in the game being called.  (2:52:55 mark).

It's not fair to judge in hindsight, but I wonder if #18 had been flagged in Q1, would the escalation of the trash talk have continued to the end result?  

 

I officiated this game twice. I can tell you that the last thing you want to do is throw a bunch of flags at what is supposed to be half football game, half graduation party. 

[Impartial_Observer]

Did it once, agreed. But it did get a little chippy. We just talked a lot and got thru it. 

[Bobref]

9 hours ago, oldtimeqb said:

White hat (who might be a poster here?)

Yes.

[Major]

What about the first play of the second qtr?  North was assessed a personal foul?

 

[Major]

10 hours ago, Bobref said:

I understand it was a sh*tshow tonight. What happened?

You got that right.  Players were out of control and officals/coaches did nothing to stop it.

[temptation]

What an embarrassment.

[Bobref]

1 hour ago, Major said:

officals/coaches did nothing to stop it

What would you have the officials do that they didn’t?

The way in which officials handle this sort of thing is well established. There is an escalating sequence of responses, which goes like this:

1. Talk to the players. This is something the crew does throughout the game. But it becomes much more focused if things get chippy.
2. Talk to the head coaches. “Coach, your #50 is going to get you in trouble if he keeps up the chirping, shoving, etc.” Hopefully, the coach has a little more influence on the player, and calms him down.
3. Throw the flag. Talk can only get you so far. If talking doesn’t work, the flag usually does.
4. Disqualify the offenders. This is absolutely a last resort. 

I have some pretty good sources (not anyone on last night’s crew), and understand there was a disqualification for targeting against the North early on — which, by all accounts, was exactly the right call. But it continued, and the coaches didn’t even sit offending players for a series after a personal foul or unsportsmanlike conduct foul. There is only so much the officials can do … and my sources tell me the crew did everything they could, but got little cooperation from the coaching staffs.

1 hour ago, Major said:

What about the first play of the second qtr?  North was assessed a personal foul?

 

Was that the targeting foul committed against the South QB? The offender was disqualified, as the Referee judged it to be a flagrant personal foul.

[temptation]

21 minutes ago, Bobref said:

What would you have the officials do that they didn’t?

The way in which officials handle this sort of thing is well established. There is an escalating sequence of responses, which goes like this:

1. Talk to the players. This is something the crew does throughout the game. But it becomes much more focused if things get chippy.
2. Talk to the head coaches. “Coach, your #50 is going to get you in trouble if he keeps up the chirping, shoving, etc.” Hopefully, the coach has a little more influence on the player, and calms him down.
3. Throw the flag. Talk can only get you so far. If talking doesn’t work, the flag usually does.
4. Disqualify the offenders. This is absolutely a last resort. 

I have some pretty good sources (not anyone on last night’s crew), and understand there was a disqualification for targeting against the North early on — which, by all accounts, was exactly the right call. But it continued, and the coaches didn’t even sit offending players for a series after a personal foul or unsportsmanlike conduct foul. There is only so much the officials can do … and my sources tell me the crew did everything they could, but got little cooperation from the coaching staffs.

Was that the targeting foul committed against the South QB? The offender was disqualified, as the Referee judged it to be a flagrant personal foul.

Wait, COACHES are a problem?

The mentors/leaders of young people?

Color me shocked.

[Grover]

1 hour ago, Major said:

You got that right.  Players were out of control and officals/coaches did nothing to stop it.

I would reword that. Nothing the officials/coaches did stopped it. 

[Irishman]

Several things have come to mind with this. Coaches are in a tough spot. They have less than one week with the players, so building relationships with some is difficult; especially if players are from a rival program. 
While it may have worked for some time, I have long thought it may not be the best idea to house the teams on the same campus where there paths cross often through each day. 
Not sure what the practice set up is like. Do the teams practice at the same time? Are they doing one on one stuff with opposing players? 
Add to all of this, it was hot all week. Sure it has been hot in the past, but tempers are shorter in the heat.
Maybe someone could approach Marian U and ask to house one team there while the other is at UIndy. 
It is unfortunate these things took place, but I also think this shows that there are limits to what can be done by coaches and officials. 

[temptation]

4 minutes ago, Irishman said:

Several things have come to mind with this. Coaches are in a tough spot. They have less than one week with the players, so building relationships with some is difficult; especially if players are from a rival program. 
While it may have worked for some time, I have long thought it may not be the best idea to house the teams on the same campus where there paths cross often through each day. 
Not sure what the practice set up is like. Do the teams practice at the same time? Are they doing one on one stuff with opposing players? 
Add to all of this, it was hot all week. Sure it has been hot in the past, but tempers are shorter in the heat.
Maybe someone could approach Marian U and ask to house one team there while the other is at UIndy. 
It is unfortunate these things took place, but I also think this shows that there are limits to what can be done by coaches and officials. 

Have higher expectations of coaches and young people.

Edited July 15, 2023 by temptation

[oldtimeqb]

@Bobref am I correct in assuming that this September, if a player spins the ball in the end zone and encourages his teammates to celebrate with him that it will be flagged? (42:40 mark of video) 

 

 

[Irishman]

37 minutes ago, temptation said:

Have higher expectations of coaches and young people.

🙄

[Bash Riprock]

1 hour ago, temptation said:

Wait, COACHES are a problem?

The mentors/leaders of young people?

Color me shocked.

Were you present?  On the sidelines?  

Nothing like assigning guilt from the cheapseats....then again, pointing fingers without any involvement is what social media has become.

Of course, you would have handled it far better and nipped it all in the bud.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Bash Riprock

[temptation]

17 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

Were you present?  On the sidelines?  

Nothing like assigning guilt from the cheapseats....then again, pointing fingers without any involvement is what social media has become.

Of course, you would have handled it far better and nipped it all in the bud.

Zero doubt.

[Grover]

1 hour ago, temptation said:

Have higher expectations of coaches and young people.

Just stop.  Seriously.

[temptation]

1 minute ago, Grover said:

Just stop.  Seriously.

Have higher expectations that the folks involved can keep things together for 2-3 hours in an exhibition game.  

Seriously.

[temptation]

The Indiana/Kentucky All-Star basketball series is basically dead…might as well send this contest out to pasture also.

[Basementbias]

18 minutes ago, temptation said:

The Indiana/Kentucky All-Star basketball series is basically dead…might as well send this contest out to pasture also.

Is this for college exposure only? Most of the colleges have probably already made choices at this point & we have technology now to view in season. Guessing the biggest D1 athletes are early enrolling into spring ball more in this day & age. Put it out to pasture. 

[Bobref]

2 hours ago, oldtimeqb said:

@Bobref am I correct in assuming that this September, if a player spins the ball in the end zone and encourages his teammates to celebrate with him that it will be flagged? (42:40 mark of video) 

 

 

You had better believe it.

[temptation]

15 minutes ago, Bobref said:

You had better believe it.

What’s a 15 yard unsportsmanlike to a kid in an exhibition all-star game though?

Honestly.

[Grover]

1 hour ago, temptation said:

Have higher expectations that the folks involved can keep things together for 2-3 hours in an exhibition game.  

Seriously.

Maybe you and your expectations can coach next year. 

[temptation]

8 minutes ago, Grover said:

Maybe you and your expectations can coach next year. 

Nah, walked away a few years ago.

No desire to go back.