Crown Point (13-0) vs. Ben Davis (12-1) 6A State Championship

[Bash Riprock]

1 hour ago, temptation said:

My bad…you hate what numbers reveal and think that contests with a 3-4 possession margin of victory where battles that were “tough games.”

 

 

You really have no clue what I do for a living....

I hope you didn't teach math or science....If so, God help those kids....

[BTF]

On 11/20/2023 at 4:49 PM, temptation said:

In fact, you have to go all the way back to 1996 to find a state finals contest in the state’s largest class that has finished with a one possession final score in such a contest.

The difference in 2004 was two lucky touchdowns, an unforced error, and a D1 running back sitting on the sidelines. Just sayin. But I get your point. Games are lopsided for the most part. Penn gave a good showing in 2015. 

[temptation]

3 minutes ago, BTF said:

The difference in 2004 was two lucky touchdowns, an unforced error, and a D1 running back sitting on the sidelines. Just sayin. But I get your point. Games are lopsided for the most part. Penn gave a good showing in 2015. 

I have higher expectations of a state final contest than a “good showing.”

[BTF]

3 minutes ago, temptation said:

I have higher expectations of a state final contest than a “good showing.”

It was a good showing for sure, anyone who was there could tell you. But damn, talk about some lucky bounces. Also, you won't convince anyone from Northeastern Indiana that Snider wasn't the best team in the state that year when Quale Lewis wasn't in crutches. All I'm saying is that there have been a couple of teams from the north that were competitive since 1996. And I get what you're saying, by and large, it's been highly lopsided. 

[FastpacedO]

23 minutes ago, BTF said:

The difference in 2004 was two lucky touchdowns, an unforced error, and a D1 running back sitting on the sidelines. Just sayin. But I get your point. Games are lopsided for the most part. Penn gave a good showing in 2015. 

Amazing thing about 04 Warren Central was that team had young players filling key positions of the now graduated 03 players (Evans for Bonds, Taylor for Tardy, Bailey for Lacey add in Finch). They did have Hatchet returning at LB. Those young players ended up making a strong 3 year run going 43-2.

[BTF]

43 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

Amazing thing about 04 Warren Central was that team had young players filling key positions of the now graduated 03 players (Evans for Bonds, Taylor for Tardy, Bailey for Lacey add in Finch). They did have Hatchet returning at LB. Those young players ended up making a strong 3 year run going 43-2.

Yes, arguably the best dynasty Indiana high school football has seen. 

[BLACKGOLD2007]

1 hour ago, temptation said:

I have higher expectations of a state final contest than a “good showing.”

I agree, but, based on Penn's performances in State finals games since the coaching change in 2003, 2015 was the closest we have come to sniffing a state championship...

We got a waft of that sweet goodness...but that is it....the other three attempts were just f'ing dreadful...outscored 174 - 21

I also would like to point out that most teams didn't even come close to beating any of those teams those three years. But, that does not excuse Penn's lack of, well, anything those three nights. 

[hhpatriot04]

1 hour ago, BTF said:

Yes, arguably the best dynasty Indiana high school football has seen. 

Who could you strawman as second best? 

[BTF]

Luers  from 2009-2012. Lafayette Central Catholic from 2009-2012. I think those are your next two.

There's been several. I'm sure Ben Davis, Penn, Center Grove, Western Boone, Roncalli, Chatard, Cathedral, and Sheridan would love to be added to the conversation. 

[GOLDRUSH1985]

3 hours ago, BTF said:

Luers  from 2009-2012. Lafayette Central Catholic from 2009-2012. I think those are your next two.

There's been several. I'm sure Ben Davis, Penn, Center Grove, Western Boone, Roncalli, Chatard, Cathedral, and Sheridan would love to be added to the conversation. 

I would start with who won the most consecutive titles, then work backwards from there. 

[temptation]

CG’s recent run gets my vote as #2…and it’s a distant second IMO.

Many of the contests involving those Warren teams were over when the schedule was released.

Edited November 23, 2023 by temptation

[FastpacedO]

4 hours ago, BTF said:

Luers  from 2009-2012. Lafayette Central Catholic from 2009-2012. I think those are your next two.

There's been several. I'm sure Ben Davis, Penn, Center Grove, Western Boone, Roncalli, Chatard, Cathedral, and Sheridan would love to be added to the conversation. 

Center Grove was an OT loss by 3 to Ben Davis away from possibly matching Warren Central 4 consecutive  State Championships (they would have had to beat Crown Point which I think they would have). That would have put CG in 5 consecutive State Championships and possibly above the WC dynasty (CG lost to Carmel in 2019 20-17 then won 2020, 2021, and 2022)

[temptation]

Back on topic…anybody have knowledge of a list of first year head coaches to win a state title?

I don’t but have to believe BD’s Russ Mann would be in a pretty prestigious group were they to win Saturday…

[FastpacedO]

14 minutes ago, temptation said:

Back on topic…anybody have knowledge of a list of first year head coaches to win a state title?

I don’t but have to believe BD’s Russ Mann would be in a pretty prestigious group were they to win Saturday…

I will have to research that one. I know Coach Bud Wright went to Semi-State his first year. Yeoman also went to Semi-State his first year. There are some that won State their second year as Head Coach. Are we talking 1st year as a Head Coach or first year at a school?

[temptation]

1 minute ago, FastpacedO said:

I will have to research that one. I know Coach Bud Wright went to Semi-State his first year. Yeoman also went to Semi-State his first year. There are some that won State their second year as Head Coach. Are we talking 1st year as a Head Coach or first year at a school?

Either.  I’d have to think the first list is small but may have a handful of names…the second one probably more common.

[BTF]

34 minutes ago, temptation said:

CG’s recent run gets my vote as #2…and it’s a distant second IMO.

Many of the contests involving those Warren teams were over when the schedule was released.

I know this is a 6A thread, but are we including the other classes? Luers and LCC won four consecutive. That has to trump Center Grove. 

[BTF]

33 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

Center Grove was an OT loss by 3 to Ben Davis away from possibly matching Warren Central 4 consecutive  State Championships (they would have had to beat Crown Point which I think they would have). That would have put CG in 5 consecutive State Championships and possibly above the WC dynasty (CG lost to Carmel in 2019 20-17 then won 2020, 2021, and 2022)

I would argue that many programs could claim they were this or that away from winning a game. I could write a book on that topic regarding my favorite team. I put Center Grove up there with Ben Davis and Penn. I'm not sure what makes the Trojans better than the Giants and Kingsmen. Over all, in all classes, I think we have to look at the four in a row by Luers and LCC. 

[Boilernation]

46 minutes ago, temptation said:

Back on topic…anybody have knowledge of a list of first year head coaches to win a state title?

I don’t but have to believe BD’s Russ Mann would be in a pretty prestigious group were they to win Saturday…

No, but ironically Buzea has a chance to do to Mann what the legendary Lidy at Castle did to him.

Buzea was in his first year as a HC when he lost the 5A Title in ‘94 with Portage. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Boilernation

[Bash Riprock]

12 minutes ago, BTF said:

I would argue that many programs could claim they were this or that away from winning a game. I could write a book on that topic regarding my favorite team. I put Center Grove up there with Ben Davis and Penn. I'm not sure what makes the Trojans better than the Giants and Kingsmen. Over all, in all classes, I think we have to look at the four in a row by Luers and LCC. 

CG was close...they did go to 4 state championship games in a row  (2019-2022)....they lost a tight one to Carmel 20-17 in the first one of their run.  (winning the next 3)

[temptation]

20 minutes ago, BTF said:

I know this is a 6A thread, but are we including the other classes? Luers and LCC won four consecutive. That has to trump Center Grove. 

Nope.  Sorry.  Not even close.

[FastpacedO]

4 minutes ago, BTF said:

I would argue that many programs could claim they were this or that away from winning a game. I could write a book on that topic regarding my favorite team. I put Center Grove up there with Ben Davis and Penn. I'm not sure what makes the Trojans better than the Giants and Kingsmen. Over all, in all classes, I think we have to look at the four in a row by Luers and LCC. 

Center Grove the last 4 years 51-4 and 59-10 the last 5 years (2019 8-6 lost to Carmel in State Championship 20-17, 2020 14-0 won State, 2021 14-0 won State, 2022 12-2 won State , 2023 11-2 lost to Ben Davis in OT of Semi-State). Not to mention CG has played one of the best schedules each year. I would place CG squarely at Number 2 dynasty. Had they beat Ben Davis likely would have surpassed the WC dynasty. They (Center Grove) also had a great run from 2011 through 2016. Coach Moore has built a strong dynasty at Center Grove.

Here are the Indiana Dynasty ratings from 2001 to today.

 

[FastpacedO]

24 minutes ago, BTF said:

I know this is a 6A thread, but are we including the other classes? Luers and LCC won four consecutive. That has to trump Center Grove. 

Luers and LCC had great runs and tough teams for them, but CG's run with the schedule they have played the last 5 years is VERY impressive.

3 minutes ago, temptation said:

Nope.  Sorry.  Not even close.

Agreed

[PDB26]

1 hour ago, BTF said:

I'm not sure what makes the Trojans better than the Giants and Kingsmen.

45 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

Center Grove the last 4 years 51-4 and 59-10 the last 5 years (2019 8-6 lost to Carmel in State Championship 20-17, 2020 14-0 won State, 2021 14-0 won State, 2022 12-2 won State , 2023 11-2 lost to Ben Davis in OT of Semi-State). Not to mention CG has played one of the best schedules each year. I would place CG squarely at Number 2 dynasty. Had they beat Ben Davis likely would have surpassed the WC dynasty. They (Center Grove) also had a great run from 2011 through 2016. Coach Moore has built a strong dynasty at Center Grove.

I'm in the same boat as you @BTF. Maybe Center Grove's run feels a little bit like Ben Davis from '87-'02, but against a stronger field. If I'm ranking dynasties [which to me isn't limited to consecutive championships] it goes:

#1 Warren Central 2003-2006 

#2 Center Grove 2011-present 

#3 Ben Davis 1987-2002 

 

[GOLDRUSH1985]

20 minutes ago, PDB26 said:

I'm in the same boat as you @BTF. Maybe Center Grove's run feels a little bit like Ben Davis from '87-'02, but against a stronger field. If I'm ranking dynasties [which to me isn't limited to consecutive championships] it goes:

#1 Warren Central 2003-2006 

#2 Center Grove 2011-present 

#3 Ben Davis 1987-2002 

 

I think Penn's is more impressive than BD's . From 1995-2000(6 years) Penn played in 5 State championships , winning 4 out of 5 along with 3 in a row . WC=4 , CG and Penn =3 . BD never won 3 in a row . 

Edited November 23, 2023 by GOLDRUSH1985

[PDB26]

41 minutes ago, GOLDRUSH1985 said:

I think Penn's is more impressive than BD's . From 1995-2000(6 years) Penn played in 5 State championships , winning 4 out of 5 along with 3 in a row . WC=4 , CG and Penn =3 . BD never won 3 in a row . 

Perfectly reasonable. I considered that BD played in the state finals in '87, '88, '90, '91, '92, '96, '99, '01, and '02 with 7 championships. Penn and Ben Davis traded shots ('96 and '99) during Penn's run, while Ben Davis took us out in '91. Of course, '91 and '99 were not particularly close games. Also, it was hard for me considering the unevenness of the regular season series during the '95-'02 stretch. '98 and '02 seem like missed opportunities where Penn could have picked up one or two more appearances in the finals, which might have been persuasive for me. As it stands, I think I still have us at #4, even if it's closer to a toss up.