4A State Championship: Northwood vs East Central

[Bobref]

On 11/25/2023 at 3:24 PM, Howe said:

I am watching on IHSAAtv. The defender was pulling the jersey of the receiver as both players were jumping for the ball on slow motion replay. 

What!!?? @Rodneywas wrong??? How can that be? 😅🤣😂

[NE8_Fan]

On 11/26/2023 at 12:05 AM, scarab527 said:

I’ll agree, NorthWood played EC a lot tougher than I thought they could. 
 

Not sure if that means anything for 4A North actually being competitive in the future. NorthWood had 2 P5 guys on the outside, don’t think that can be overstated. 
 

Maybe if Dwenger gets back to form. 

Don't look for this to happen anytime soon.....they may want to get back into 5A with Snider going up to 6A.....better chance to win a sectional because I SERIOUSLY doubt it will happen in Sectional 19 anytime soon......

[BTF]

On 11/25/2023 at 4:24 PM, Howe said:

I am watching on IHSAAtv. The defender was pulling the jersey of the receiver as both players were jumping for the ball on slow motion replay. 

After showing the replay, those of us in the stands thought it was pretty ticky tack since refs seem to let kids play at this level of the tournament. Shouldn't have been called in my opinion. Overall though, I was very impressed how all the games were officiated. No one is perfect. 

[FastpacedO]

44 minutes ago, BTF said:

After showing the replay, those of us in the stands thought it was pretty ticky tack since refs seem to let kids play at this level of the tournament. Shouldn't have been called in my opinion. Overall though, I was very impressed how all the games were officiated. No one is perfect. 

Pass interference is called if the defensive player contacts the offensive player while he is trying to catch the pass, unless the defender has turned his head to face the oncoming pass and is attempting to intercept it. Accidental, glancing contact is not penalized.

To me it wasn't ticky tack and was the correct call. @Bobref and @Yuccaguy can correct me if I am wrong. Had he not grabbed a handful of Brotherton's jersey he probably would have been okay. He did somewhat look back to the ball so contact could have been deemed accidental, but when you grab the jersey that will be called regardless (see photo)

[BTF]

1 minute ago, FastpacedO said:

Pass interference is called if the defensive player contacts the offensive player while he is trying to catch the pass, unless the defender has turned his head to face the oncoming pass and is attempting to intercept it. Accidental, glancing contact is not penalized.

To me it wasn't ticky tack and was the correct call. @Bobref and @Yuccaguy can correct me if I am wrong. Had he not grabbed a handful of Brotherton's jersey he probably would have been okay. He did somewhat look back to the ball so contact could have been deemed accidental, but when you grab the jersey that will be called regardless (see photo)

Thanks for the insight. Noted and respected. Still think it was ticky tack. 

[FastpacedO]

1 minute ago, BTF said:

Thanks for the insight. Noted and respected. Still think it was ticky tack. 

Here is another step frame shot. The jersey tug did impede the jump from happening sooner.

[BTF]

I admire your persistence. It was a game where the East Central fans, the most vocal of the tournament, pretty much stood up and screamed if the refs even looked at their players the wrong way. Forgive anyone on the other side for wanting something to go their way as well. 

That being said. Before I bow out for 2023. I'd like to congratulate East Central on a great season. This was one of the games I was most looking forward to see. I wanted to see how good this team really was. I wanted to see the D1 guys on Northwood's side of the ball and if they'd be able to make a game out one that NO ONE was giving them a chance in. I actually came away impressed with both squads. I think Northwood could have made it closer by playing it a bit more conservative instead of giving away good field position. In the end, it didn't matter. One way or another, the Trojans were going to win that game. They beat you with discipline and fundamentals. Good line play and a hell of a quick running back. Some think your team is the second best in the state. Some think you're the seventh best team in the state. In the end, the players think they are BEST team in the state, and that is all that really matters. Once again........congrats!

[FastpacedO]

10 minutes ago, BTF said:

I admire your persistence. It was a game where the East Central fans, the most vocal of the tournament, pretty much stood up and screamed if the refs even looked at their players the wrong way. Forgive anyone on the other side for wanting something to go their way as well. 

Unnecessary comments, and I am not one of the East Central fans nor was I part of the most vocal. I just pointed out it was the correct call on the field by the official and provided a couple of still photos of the jersey grab (which would be called at any level).

As for in correct calls the TD catch in 6A by Zackery ruled incomplete was a missed call. Overall the officials did a solid job through the 6 games.

[Trojan12]

16 minutes ago, BTF said:

I admire your persistence. It was a game where the East Central fans, the most vocal of the tournament, pretty much stood up and screamed if the refs even looked at their players the wrong way. Forgive anyone on the other side for wanting something to go their way as well. 

That being said. Before I bow out for 2023. I'd like to congratulate East Central on a great season. This was one of the games I was most looking forward to see. I wanted to see how good this team really was. I wanted to see the D1 guys on Northwood's side of the ball and if they'd be able to make a game out one that NO ONE was giving them a chance in. I actually came away impressed with both squads. I think Northwood could have made it closer by playing it a bit more conservative instead of giving away good field position. In the end, it didn't matter. One way or another, the Trojans were going to win that game. They beat you with discipline and fundamentals. Good line play and a hell of a quick running back. Some think your team is the second best in the state. Some think you're the seventh best team in the state. In the end, the players think they are BEST team in the state, and that is all that really matters. Once again........congrats!

East Central fans are no more vocal than any other small town football fans. We're they more vocal on Saturday? Probably. Fans usually are more vocal when you're trying to make school history. I would also say the young man from Northwood who kept taunting the sidelines probably fanned that flame a little bit more. 

I thought Northwood came out on fire with emotions running high and those emotions tired them out a little quicker than normal. Playing against East Centrals multi set offense is mentally demanding on the defense. East Centrals linebackers shutting down the QB running game was a big difference IMO. 

I know there was some talk from some that Northwood would be able to slow down East Centrals running game. When you watch this offense on film it may seem like you potentially can. However, once you face it in a game you quickly realize how tough it is to slow Ringer, Brother, Maxwell, Minges and Burton down. IMO Northwood pushed EC more than the score indicates. Congrats on a hell of a year. 

One last thing on EC.. This team scored 740 points and only allowed 97.. That's something that we may never see again at EC. 

 

[BTF]

20 minutes ago, Trojan12 said:

East Central fans are no more vocal than any other small town football fans. We're they more vocal on Saturday? Probably. Fans usually are more vocal when you're trying to make school history. I would also say the young man from Northwood who kept taunting the sidelines probably fanned that flame a little bit more. 

I thought Northwood came out on fire with emotions running high and those emotions tired them out a little quicker than normal. Playing against East Centrals multi set offense is mentally demanding on the defense. East Centrals linebackers shutting down the QB running game was a big difference IMO. 

I know there was some talk from some that Northwood would be able to slow down East Centrals running game. When you watch this offense on film it may seem like you potentially can. However, once you face it in a game you quickly realize how tough it is to slow Ringer, Brother, Maxwell, Minges and Burton down. IMO Northwood pushed EC more than the score indicates. Congrats on a hell of a year. 

One last thing on EC.. This team scored 740 points and only allowed 97.. That's something that we may never see again at EC. 

 

Contrats to your team. Impressive team, program, and fan base. Good luck in 5A next season. 

[Rodney]

2 hours ago, FastpacedO said:

Pass interference is called if the defensive player contacts the offensive player while he is trying to catch the pass, unless the defender has turned his head to face the oncoming pass and is attempting to intercept it. Accidental, glancing contact is not penalized.

To me it wasn't ticky tack and was the correct call. @Bobref and @Yuccaguy can correct me if I am wrong. Had he not grabbed a handful of Brotherton's jersey he probably would have been okay. He did somewhat look back to the ball so contact could have been deemed accidental, but when you grab the jersey that will be called regardless (see photo)

he is literally turned around facing the ball with his left hand going up towards it.

 

The receiver hasn't even begun to go for the ball yet, note his stance,

so there is zero chance this impeded his jump

it was a heated play in the back corner of the endzone in the state championship game right before halftime

there was contact... its a contact sport

this game has gone soft because we let soft men become zebras let the kids play for crying out loud its the state championship

 

and out of all the horseshit calls we go for this one to call out, not the ones with the refs 85 yards behind the play throwing flags

also brotherton made a hell of a play here to almost catch it regardless.

[FastpacedO]

3 minutes ago, Rodney said:

he is literally turned around facing the ball with his left hand going up towards it.

 

The receiver hasn't even begun to go for the ball yet, note his stance,

so there is zero chance this impeded his jump

it was a heated play in the back corner of the endzone in the state championship game right before halftime

there was contact... its a contact sport

this game has gone soft because we let soft men become zebras let the kids play for crying out loud its the state championship

 

and out of all the horseshit calls we go for this one to call out, not the ones with the refs 85 yards behind the play throwing flags

also brotherton made a hell of a play here to almost catch it regardless.

The jersey grab delayed the jump not by much. Regardless if the defender looked back at the ball, he grabbed a handful of jersey and yanked down. It will be called at any level. It was a good call. Regardless if Brotherton made a heck of a play to almost catch it, it doesn't wipe out that the defender grabbed jersey.

Contact is legal and can be accidental if the defender is looking back to the ball (which he was). Grabbing and pulling the jersey down is not legal.

[tango]

2 hours ago, Trojan12 said:

East Central fans are no more vocal than any other small town football fans. We're they more vocal on Saturday? Probably. Fans usually are more vocal when you're trying to make school history. I would also say the young man from Northwood who kept taunting the sidelines probably fanned that flame a little bit more. 

I thought Northwood came out on fire with emotions running high and those emotions tired them out a little quicker than normal. Playing against East Centrals multi set offense is mentally demanding on the defense. East Centrals linebackers shutting down the QB running game was a big difference IMO. 

I know there was some talk from some that Northwood would be able to slow down East Centrals running game. When you watch this offense on film it may seem like you potentially can. However, once you face it in a game you quickly realize how tough it is to slow Ringer, Brother, Maxwell, Minges and Burton down. IMO Northwood pushed EC more than the score indicates. Congrats on a hell of a year. 

One last thing on EC.. This team scored 740 points and only allowed 97.. That's something that we may never see again at EC. 

 

For what its worth, I enjoyed meeting a few EC fans over the past few years. Seemed like good people to me..

[Yuccaguy]

5 hours ago, FastpacedO said:

Pass interference is called if the defensive player contacts the offensive player while he is trying to catch the pass, unless the defender has turned his head to face the oncoming pass and is attempting to intercept it. Accidental, glancing contact is not penalized.

To me it wasn't ticky tack and was the correct call. @Bobref and @Yuccaguy can correct me if I am wrong. Had he not grabbed a handful of Brotherton's jersey he probably would have been okay. He did somewhat look back to the ball so contact could have been deemed accidental, but when you grab the jersey that will be called regardless (see photo)

Based upon the snapshot;   It probably was.  

But remember, here in good ole Indiana.  We are still using 5 guys to cover a field of play with teenagers (not like we used to be) running RPO and fast all all get out.  

Sometimes things are missed, sadly.  

I've suggested that following the Sectional Finals we use 7 man crews....  immediately rebuffed by the powers that me.   

With a FJ and a SJ right there...  I'd guess that that ability to more clearly adjudicate things like this would be handled better.  Not perfect, but better.  

[Komets2727]

19 hours ago, Yuccaguy said:

Based upon the snapshot;   It probably was.  

But remember, here in good ole Indiana.  We are still using 5 guys to cover a field of play with teenagers (not like we used to be) running RPO and fast all all get out.  

Sometimes things are missed, sadly.  

I've suggested that following the Sectional Finals we use 7 man crews....  immediately rebuffed by the powers that me.   

With a FJ and a SJ right there...  I'd guess that that ability to more clearly adjudicate things like this would be handled better.  Not perfect, but better.  

I like your idea sir. As the games grow in importance, not only should you have the best officials, but adding a couple to avoid missed calls should be considered a good thing. Alas, the IHSAA stands in the way, shocker 

[Bobref]

2 hours ago, Komets2727 said:

I like your idea sir. As the games grow in importance, not only should you have the best officials, but adding a couple to avoid missed calls should be considered a good thing. Alas, the IHSAA stands in the way, shocker 

In fairness to the IHSAA, their unwillingness to add officials in the upper levels of the playoffs is not irrational, or based on some silly reason like economics. There are sufficient numbers of very good officials sitting home after the sectional final for us to go to crews of 7 at the Regional level and above. The IHSAA’s unwillingness to do so is based on the belief that adding two new officials to a crew, in the most important games of the season, that has been working 5-man mechanics all season, is unwise. There is no doubt that 7-man mechanics differ in a number of important ways from 5-man mechanics, including positioning, movement, keys, and coverage responsibilities. You can disagree with the IHSAA’s conclusion that the risks of such a change outweigh the potential benefits. But that’s a judgment call on their part.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Bobref

[Komets2727]

28 minutes ago, Bobref said:

In fairness to the IHSAA, their unwillingness to add officials in the upper levels of the playoffs is not irrational, or based on some silly reason like economics. There are sufficient numbers of very good officials sitting home after the sectional final for us to go to crews of 7 at the Regional level and above. The IHSAA’s unwillingness to do so is based on the belief that adding two new officials to a crew, in the most important games of the season, that has been working 5-man mechanics all season, is unwise. There is no doubt that 7-man mechanics differ in a number of important ways from 5-man mechanics, including positioning, movement, keys, and coverage responsibilities. You can disagree with the IHSAA’s conclusion that the risks of such a change outweigh the potential benefits. But that’s a judgment call on their part.

I have full confidence that the officials could and would adjust to 7 man crews. Example, MLB uses 4 man crews throughout the regular season and goes to 6 man crews for the playoffs

[Trojan12]

2 hours ago, Bobref said:

In fairness to the IHSAA, their unwillingness to add officials in the upper levels of the playoffs is not irrational, or based on some silly reason like economics. There are sufficient numbers of very good officials sitting home after the sectional final for us to go to crews of 7 at the Regional level and above. The IHSAA’s unwillingness to do so is based on the belief that adding two new officials to a crew, in the most important games of the season, that has been working 5-man mechanics all season, is unwise. There is no doubt that 7-man mechanics differ in a number of important ways from 5-man mechanics, including positioning, movement, keys, and coverage responsibilities. You can disagree with the IHSAA’s conclusion that the risks of such a change outweigh the potential benefits. But that’s a judgment call on their part.

Admittedly I only watched the EC game this past weekend. That being said, if the big topic in the 4a game is 1 call didn't the officials do an adequate job? 

[Bobref]

1 hour ago, Komets2727 said:

I have full confidence that the officials could and would adjust to 7 man crews. Example, MLB uses 4 man crews throughout the regular season and goes to 6 man crews for the playoffs

I have an example closer to home. My last year on the field I worked the North-South game in July. It was a 7 man crew. I had worked 7 only a handful of times in my entire career. But we had no problem in the game. Of course, there are going to be some mixups. But I believe with officials of that caliber, the benefit of increased coverage outweighs the risk posed by the unfamiliar mechanics.

[Bobref]

3 hours ago, Trojan12 said:

Admittedly I only watched the EC game this past weekend. That being said, if the big topic in the 4a game is 1 call didn't the officials do an adequate job? 

They certainly did. But how good is good enough? No game is easy to officiate, but some are more difficult than others. Don’t you want to have the best chance of getting the big call right? The only question ought to be whether a 7 (or 6) man crew is likely to do a better job than a 5 man crew. 

[Trojan12]

1 hour ago, Bobref said:

They certainly did. But how good is good enough? No game is easy to officiate, but some are more difficult than others. Don’t you want to have the best chance of getting the big call right? The only question ought to be whether a 7 (or 6) man crew is likely to do a better job than a 5 man crew. 

I'm all for 6 or 7 man crew if possible.. Heck I would be for having an additional one on the sideline incase the coaching staff has a question. I'm all for looking at every aspect of champion weekend and seeing where things can be done better. 

[Rodney]

2 hours ago, Bobref said:

They certainly did. But how good is good enough? No game is easy to officiate, but some are more difficult than others. Don’t you want to have the best chance of getting the big call right? The only question ought to be whether a 7 (or 6) man crew is likely to do a better job than a 5 man crew. 

I think we ought to move to a 1 man crew and make him stand in the parking lot 

[NPFB]

14 hours ago, Rodney said:

I think we ought to move to a 1 man crew and make him stand in the parking lot 

I think we just need to leave the officiating to the people in the stands. They seem to always have a better angle and are never wrong. To save confusion, they dont have to use NFHS rules, they can use whatever rules they see on Saturday and Sunday TV. Trust me on this, Ive gone to this with all my offensive play calling, they seldom call the wrong play, and if it doesnt work then it was the kids fault and we are playing the wrong kid.  I dont have to hear "That was a stupid play" 10 seconds after we run it. 

[Rodney]

47 minutes ago, NPFB said:

I think we just need to leave the officiating to the people in the stands. They seem to always have a better angle and are never wrong. To save confusion, they dont have to use NFHS rules, they can use whatever rules they see on Saturday and Sunday TV. Trust me on this, Ive gone to this with all my offensive play calling, they seldom call the wrong play, and if it doesnt work then it was the kids fault and we are playing the wrong kid.  I dont have to hear "That was a stupid play" 10 seconds after we run it. 

In the game was meant to be fair there would be no officials at all.