Coaches Confidential: Is tournament success factor working? What about private schools?

[US31]

46 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

I don't know how something like this would be done, but I've actually mentioned that I'd like to see a de-multiplier. So, if a team is really struggling in a class it can be moved down to a class where it's more competitive. Again, I don't know how you'd do something like that and make it fair, but it was one of those silly ideas I had one afternoon.

Using a clearinghouse method of counting enrollment would accomplish this as well....

[MarshallCounty]

11 hours ago, IndianaWrestlingGuy1 said:

Sure. One example for you: I live in Syracuse, Indiana, and a football monster could be built at Wawasee High School in no time. I'd spend my summers in the football leagues in Warsaw, Goshen, Northwood, Columbia City, and I might even snipe an all-star from Wakarusa. I'd work the parents about building a powerhouse. I'd find a few local sponsors (maybe the largest duck manufacturer in the country in Maple Leaf Farms or the largest boat manufacturer in the state in SmokerCraft) to fund the new football extravaganza. I'd probably throw a few fundraisers at the Frog Tavern or the Oakwood Resort. And, I'd use the money to fund coaches and a youth program that was sought after across Kosciusko, Elkhart or Wabash counties. 
 

Since all those school districts are less than 30 minutes away in different directions, I'd work on transportation to make sure all the kids could get to school/practice in a timely fashion. Then I'd rustle up a past Wawasee High School or Goshen HS legend to be on my staff. And I'd use the money from the Wawasee Football Frog Tavern Silent Auction to hire some top tier coaches. Hell, I probably wouldn't even have to worry about paying coaches more since I had so much tax money. 
 

After a couple season of above average success and a sectional win or (God willing) a Regional win, I'd broadcast the Best Football Program in the 574 area code out to the neighboring 4 counties. Then, I'd have move-ins from as far away as Elkhart, Ft. Wayne, or Wabash that would come for the party. Hell, they could even live on beautiful Lake Wawasee, Lake Syracuse, Lake Tippecanoe, or one of the Barbee finger lakes. You could contend in 5A in under 3 years. 
 

So yeah, spend more time and try harder...

 

PS. The untapped gnarly talent is hiding in that Amish community. I'd find Grand Master Graeber in Napanee and I could probably open up the flood gates of hard nosed kids that haven't ever been on a football field that would contribute immediately. 

Northwood already cornered that market.

[IndianaWrestlingGuy1]

3 hours ago, US31 said:

This is sarcasm/parody correct???

Nope. It's the recipe for building a winning program in a rural city with 3200 in population. 

[CoachGallogly]

Late to the article, but it’s pretty exciting to see that after so long the success factor is largely viewed as a success. 

[crimsonace1]

On 8/14/2024 at 11:50 AM, FastpacedO said:

Partially true "The IHSAA decides whether transfers are granted eligibility within their rules" This only applies for students already in HS that transfer. Not much the IHSAA does if it is an 8th grader in Pike Township that decides to be a Freshman at Lawrence North (just an example). Totally different from a current HS student that transfers from one HS to another. I have put no effort to look it up, but I would venture to say there are more current High School students that transfer "out" of Private/Parochial schools than transfer "in".

Something not mentioned when the topic of Brebeuf and Cathedral comes up is the amount of schools available in that general area if you knew how close Cathedral, Chatard, North Central, Lawrence North, Lawrence Central, Heritage Christian, and Park Tudor were to each other it would surprise many (outside of the Indianapolis area). Brebeuf isn't super far either.

North Central's lack of success in football has been a long, long-noted issue, but take note that Cathedral, Chatard, Heritage Christian, Park Tudor and Brebeuf are all in or just barely outside of Washington Township. LC has Heritage, Cathedral & Chatard in its backyard. 

[crimsonace1]

On 8/16/2024 at 11:55 AM, BDGiant93 said:

I don't know how something like this would be done, but I've actually mentioned that I'd like to see a de-multiplier. So, if a team is really struggling in a class it can be moved down to a class where it's more competitive. Again, I don't know how you'd do something like that and make it fair, but it was one of those silly ideas I had one afternoon.

Illinois has a 1.65 multiplier for all non-boundaried schools (e.g., private, parochial and charter), but waives it if a program hasn't won their equivalent of a sectional in, I think, the last four years. 

[IndianaWrestlingGuy1]

7 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said:

North Central's lack of success in football has been a long, long-noted issue, but take note that Cathedral, Chatard, Heritage Christian, Park Tudor and Brebeuf are all in or just barely outside of Washington Township. LC has Heritage, Cathedral & Chatard in its backyard. 

North Central has 700 freshmen boys in their school. They have plenty to work with. Their problem is their 2.0 GPA rule for Washington Township. That said, the players are in the school. Same demographic as Warren, Ben Davis, but perhaps a shade more affluent. 

[FastpacedO]

10 hours ago, crimsonace1 said:

North Central's lack of success in football has been a long, long-noted issue, but take note that Cathedral, Chatard, Heritage Christian, Park Tudor and Brebeuf are all in or just barely outside of Washington Township. LC has Heritage, Cathedral & Chatard in its backyard. 

North Central has athletes walking their hallways that can definitely benefit their football program even with Cathedral, Chatard, Heritage Christian, and Brebeuf within range. There are a multitude of factors that play in to North Central's lack of success on the football field. There have been some terrific coaches there who have done the best they could with what they have and only a couple have had a little bit of success. At any rate there is more to their lack of success than P/P schools. They have far more success on the basketball court.

[JQWL]

10 hours ago, IndianaWrestlingGuy1 said:

North Central has 700 freshmen boys in their school. They have plenty to work with. Their problem is their 2.0 GPA rule for Washington Township. That said, the players are in the school. Same demographic as Warren, Ben Davis, but perhaps a shade more affluent. 

What is their 2.0 GPA rule?

[BDGiant93]

2 hours ago, JQWL said:

What is their 2.0 GPA rule?

Students must be enrolled in at least five classes and maintain a minimum of a grade point average of 2.0 on a 4.0 scale.

So, let's say I have seven classes.

History-C (2.0)

Math-D (1.0)

English-C (2.0)

Social Studies-F (0)

Choir-A (4.0)

Advanced PE-A- (3.5)

Art-B (3.0)

15.5/7

GPA is 2.21. I'm eligible. Of course, this simplifies it way down. 

 

Edited August 19, 2024 by BDGiant93

[Muda69]

31 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

Students must be enrolled in at least five classes and maintain a minimum of a grade point average of 2.0 on a 4.0 scale.

So, let's say I have seven classes.

History-C (2.0)

Math-D (1.0)

English-C (2.0)

Social Studies-F (0)

Choir-A (4.0)

Advanced PE-A- (3.5)

Art-B (3.0)

15.5/7

GPA is 2.21. I'm eligible. Of course, this simplifies it way down. 

 

Sounds like a good rule.  How does rule contrast to other large Indy Area schools like Ben Davis and Warren Central? They do not have such a rule?

 

[Footballking16]

4 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Sounds like a good rule.  How does rule contrast to other large Indy Area schools like Ben Davis and Warren Central? They do not have such a rule?

 

Guessing most schools (and almost all publics) abide by the IHSAA clearinghouse pertaining to eligibility:

Grades: (1) If you did not pass 6 subjects in your previous grading period, (2) if you are not currently passing 6 subjects – Study Hall Does NOT Count, (3) if you are not currently enrolled in at least 5 academic classes

Edited August 19, 2024 by Footballking16

[Footballking16]

14 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Guessing most schools (and almost all publics) abide by the IHSAA clearinghouse pertaining to eligibility:

Grades: (1) If you did not pass 6 subjects in your previous grading period, (2) if you are not currently passing 6 subjects – Study Hall Does NOT Count, (3) if you are not currently enrolled in at least 5 academic classes

I think I pulled an old rule.

18-1 Minimum Course Enrollment and Grades for Participation To be eligible scholastically, students must have received passing grades and earned credit at the end of their last Grading Period in School in at least Seventy percent (70%) of the maximum number of full credit subjects that a student can take and must be currently Enrolled in at least Seventy percent (70%) of the maximum number of full credit subjects that a student can take. a. The preceding notwithstanding, a student must have been Enrolled in a minimum of Four (4) full credit courses during the last Grading Period, and must be Enrolled in a minimum of Four (4) full credit subjects (or the equivalent) during the current Grading Period, unless a Block Four schedule is used, and then the student’s Enrollment must be in a minimum of Three (3) full credit courses. b. If grades reported at an Eligibility Certification Date include both Grading Period grades and semester grades, then semester grades take precedence for eligibility purposes. c. A student may use up to Two (2) semesters of the state-required physical education course for eligibility purposes, with each semester’s course counting as One (1) full credit. d. Physical education credit earned by participation on an athletic team, may not count toward academic eligibility. e. Class periods must meet Indiana Department of Education standards. f. In the event a School establishes minimum academic requirements which are greater than the IHSAA academic requirements, the IHSAA will consider those higher academic requirements to constitute the IHSAA academic requirements at such School, and will require that a student at that School meet those greater academic requirements before that student is eligible scholastically under this rule.

[BDGiant93]

2 hours ago, Muda69 said:

Sounds like a good rule.  How does rule contrast to other large Indy Area schools like Ben Davis and Warren Central? They do not have such a rule?

 

Don't quote me because I'm not in that dept., but I believe you have to be passing five or six classes at Ben Davis.

Edited August 19, 2024 by BDGiant93

[IndianaWrestlingGuy1]

4 hours ago, Muda69 said:

Sounds like a good rule.  How does rule contrast to other large Indy Area schools like Ben Davis and Warren Central? They do not have such a rule?

 

I was told this is the only such rule in the Marion County publics. Why Streiff left long ago and why they've never had real traction in any sport besides tennis. They should be winning with similar frequency to Ben Davis and Warren in all sports with those numbers. If Coach Hart isn't in the school managing student athletes and test scores, he'll end up like the rest. 

[WestfieldRocks]

On 8/12/2024 at 10:29 AM, Footballking16 said:

What is the relevance to the success factor here? I'd be more worried about getting kids to come out and play over what class/tournament Chatard, Cathedral, Roncalli play in. 

Social issues? Most of the kids at Tech and Washington are probably on school lunch programs, working after school to help support a single parent family. No time for school things away from class. And per some stats I saw, many don't even bother to go most of the time. 

Meanwhile the majority of the private kids are likely just the opposite. Just drive through any of the rich neighborhoods like up N. Meridian St and see all of the real estate type of signs giving free advertising to Cathedral, Brebeuf, Chatard, and the like. Sure those schools have a handful of inner city kids, mostly athletes that were given free rides to attend. I don't buy that Cathedral only has kids who applied. Not when I know of an athlete up here that was recruited to go there.

[WestfieldRocks]

On 8/13/2024 at 9:12 PM, temptation said:

Your last paragraph is satire right?

He obviously never was in the position that a lot of these IPS kids are in. Neither they nor the schools have the money needed to do the summer circuit stuff. For some of them, just trying to stay alive in the neighborhoods that they live in is enough.  The schools barely have the money to keep the lights on their football fields. Go look at what Washington and Shortridge play on. Tech doesn't count, since their field got a total remake from the NFL $$$ from when Indy hosted the 2012 Superbowl. 

[Footballking16]

11 hours ago, WestfieldRocks said:

Social issues? Most of the kids at Tech and Washington are probably on school lunch programs, working after school to help support a single parent family. No time for school things away from class. And per some stats I saw, many don't even bother to go most of the time.

Again, what is the relevance to the success factor here? Bumping the P/P's up a class via multiplier or success factor isn't going to magically make Tech or Washington become a better football programs. 

 

11 hours ago, WestfieldRocks said:

Meanwhile the majority of the private kids are likely just the opposite. Just drive through any of the rich neighborhoods like up N. Meridian St and see all of the real estate type of signs giving free advertising to Cathedral, Brebeuf, Chatard, and the like. Sure those schools have a handful of inner city kids, mostly athletes that were given free rides to attend. I don't buy that Cathedral only has kids who applied. Not when I know of an athlete up here that was recruited to go there.

You literally don't know what you're talking about. I can't speak for the other P/P's but the only scholarship Cathedral offers is performance based on the placement test. Has nothing to do with athletics.

https://www.gocathedral.com/admissions/tuition/meritscholarships

And yes, Cathedral draws from who applies. You aren't getting in without applying, I'll assure you of that. 

Edited August 20, 2024 by Footballking16

[US31]

Once again....its not who the P/P schools count.  Its who they never have to count.

And I say this as a person who is not supportive of a multiplier or class bump.

Edited August 20, 2024 by US31

[Footballking16]

26 minutes ago, US31 said:

Once again....its not who the P/P schools count.  Its who they never have to count.

And I say this as a person who is not supportive of a multiplier or class bump.

So relegate Tech to 3A or 4A and Washington to 2A and 1A and neither team is still getting out of sectional regardless of what you do with the P/P's or the success factor. 

[US31]

15 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

So relegate Tech to 3A or 4A and Washington to 2A and 1A and neither team is still getting out of sectional regardless of what you do with the P/P's or the success factor. 

I'm not following this comment (?)

Edited August 20, 2024 by US31
You are in favor of moving teams down due to lack of success but not moving teams up because of it?

[Footballking16]

1 minute ago, US31 said:

I'm not following this comment (?)

It's pretty straight forward. 

[US31]

3 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

It's pretty straight forward. 

You are in favor of moving teams down due to lack of success, but not moving teams up because of success?  

[Muda69]

20 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

So relegate Tech to 3A or 4A and Washington to 2A and 1A and neither team is still getting out of sectional regardless of what you do with the P/P's or the success factor. 

Sounds like inching closer to a true system of promotion and relegation.  "6A" are the top tier programs, regardless of enrollment, while "1A" is the lowest tier programs, again regardless of enrollment.  

[Footballking16]

1 minute ago, US31 said:

You are in favor of moving teams down due to lack of success, but not moving teams up because of success?  

I didn't say that. But using your "clearinghouse method" of counting enrollment, Tech would likely become a 3A or 4A school and Washington a 1A or 2A school. None of which matters because it doesn't magically make either a better football program. Tech would not win an Indy-area 3A or 4A sectional and same for Washington in 1A or 2A. 

4 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Sounds like inching closer to a true system of promotion and relegation.  "6A" are the top tier programs, regardless of enrollment, while "1A" is the lowest tier programs, again regardless of enrollment.  

See my post above