Public School SWEEP?!?

[JQWL]

7 minutes ago, Bobref said:

Being selective in the admissions process is a far cry from artificially controlling numbers for purposes of athletic competition.

Ok. Maybe you're right and their enrollment going down and them winning 7 state championships in 5 years is a coincidence. I'm pretty sure the former 3A, current 2A I mentioned has won 4 in the past 2 years. Schools don't do things like this though. 

[DaveHSFF]

31 minutes ago, JQWL said:

I do wonder why you doubt this so strongly. You can go on the school's website and read their application process. They don't take everybody, nor should they. 

Why shouldn’t they accept everyone? 

[JQWL]

2 minutes ago, DaveHSFF said:

Why shouldn’t they accept everyone? 

It's hard to be an elitist and inclusive. It just doesn't work.

[PHJIrish]

7 hours ago, Yuccaguy said:

Actually MORE regular.  Because the weather forecast is a "hope"..they miss sometimes.

Once the IHSAA FB Finals games are decided, THIS (p/p v. public) is the 1st thing that is "bitched" about. 

Followed closely by the "you haven't played anyone"...we have (insert school here).  Then NWI somehow going silent (as always).  

Wash, Rinse, Repeat!  

Like!

[miner_35]

It does not matter whether private or public. This needs to no longer be a topic of discussion. The only “advantage” most of these schools have is when they are in a more highly populated area. With that being said, it still shouldn’t matter. It’s a game played by kids. Every kid puts their pants on 1 leg at a time.

[Tippy]

I don't think any Catholic school in Indiana would turn away students for athletic purposes.  From 1997-2007 enrollment in Catholic schools across the nation fell 14 percent.  The Diocese of Lafayette was the only one in Indiana to show growth in enrollment during that time.

In 1957 LCC was built for a capacity of 700 students.  In 1957 LCC had about 300 students.  The most students LCC ever had was about 600 students in 1968.  In 1977 LCC had 382 students.  In 1980 LCC had 345 students.  In 1984 LCC had 266 students.  As foxbat said, LCC almost closed its doors after the 1990 school year.  In 1990 LCC's enrollment was 187 students.  LCC went from about 600 students in 1970 to about 200 students in 1990.  There was so much room at LCC that they moved the 7th and 8th grade students in to the high school building in 1986.  

[foxbat]

3 hours ago, JQWL said:

To clarify, the 2A that was 3A is a public school. So if a public does it, I don't think it's a stretch for any other school, public or private to do it.

 

3 hours ago, JQWL said:

I know of a current 2A that was 3A that limited their out of district transfers and eliminated their virtual program to intentionally move down a class. That was told to me by one of their administrators. His words were, we aren't hurting for money so we got rid of our online academy because they didn't contribute to anything. Those kids now attend the other county school. It's worked out well for them. It's not a leap to think Providence is doing the same. They have won 6 state championships the past 5 years and maybe a 7th next week. They only won 5 state championships in their first 50 years.

This seems like quite a different proposition than a p/p.  For a public school, the lights stay on regardless of the number of folks in the classroom or at the school ... at least down to a bare minimum.  In addition, the public school stays open, even if operating at a deficit provided that the county, district, or whatever entity is willing to sustain it or counter it by borrowing from other services, issuing bonds, etc.  It's kind of like the government; just about every year we operate at a deficit, yet the country stays open.  P/Ps are, to coin a phrase on deficit spending, like a regular household; don't pay and the lights go out.  

I do find it interesting that the idea that a P/P might do it is conjecture based on what a public school is doing.  And, yes, I do think it's a leap to lay that on Providence as, if they really are doing that, 6 students is not a smart margin to play with unless you are privy to all the enrollment swings and movements of 1A and the bottom half of 2A.  Recall that more programs dropped into 1A this last reclassification than jumped up to 2A and another four became eligible in 1A for the tourney.  Whomever is "controlling" that enrollment deserves a raise to stay in 1A with just a 6-student margin and all of the other movements and unknowns.  The leap just doesn't pass the smell test, much less the numbers test ... especially given that Providence's freshman and sophomore classes are at least 25% larger than their junior and senior class.

[foxbat]

1 minute ago, Tippy said:

I don't think any Catholic school in Indiana would turn away students for athletic purposes.  From 1997-2007 enrollment in Catholic schools across the nation fell 14 percent.  The Diocese of Lafayette was the only one in Indiana to show growth in enrollment during that time.

In 1957 LCC was built for a capacity of 700 students.  In 1957 LCC had about 300 students.  The most students LCC ever had was about 600 students in 1968.  In 1977 LCC had 382 students.  In 1980 LCC had 345 students.  In 1984 LCC had 266 students.  As foxbat said, LCC almost closed its doors after the 1990 school year.  In 1990 LCC's enrollment was 187 students.  LCC went from about 600 students in 1970 to about 200 students in 1990.  There was so much room at LCC that they moved the 7th and 8th grade students in to the high school building in 1986.  

And they are still there!  LCC's campus is still JHS/HS.  In 2017-2018 enrollments, the IHSAA had LCC at 291 students and this this past classification, six year's later, it has them it has LCC at 302.  In essence, LCC's still not back to where it was almost 45 years ago in enrollment.  As one of those "captive" parishioners during the enrollment season, I can attest to the fact that, if LCC could get another 200 of its own parishioners to enroll, and find a place to put the junior high kids, they'd do it in a heartbeat.

[JQWL]

8 hours ago, foxbat said:

 

This seems like quite a different proposition than a p/p.  For a public school, the lights stay on regardless of the number of folks in the classroom or at the school ... at least down to a bare minimum.  In addition, the public school stays open, even if operating at a deficit provided that the county, district, or whatever entity is willing to sustain it or counter it by borrowing from other services, issuing bonds, etc.  It's kind of like the government; just about every year we operate at a deficit, yet the country stays open.  P/Ps are, to coin a phrase on deficit spending, like a regular household; don't pay and the lights go out.  

I do find it interesting that the idea that a P/P might do it is conjecture based on what a public school is doing.  And, yes, I do think it's a leap to lay that on Providence as, if they really are doing that, 6 students is not a smart margin to play with unless you are privy to all the enrollment swings and movements of 1A and the bottom half of 2A.  Recall that more programs dropped into 1A this last reclassification than jumped up to 2A and another four became eligible in 1A for the tourney.  Whomever is "controlling" that enrollment deserves a raise to stay in 1A with just a 6-student margin and all of the other movements and unknowns.  The leap just doesn't pass the smell test, much less the numbers test ... especially given that Providence's freshman and sophomore classes are at least 25% larger than their junior and senior class.

So they cut their enrollment drastically to get to where they wanted and saw how much wiggle room they had. That's why theie freshmen and sophomore classes are 25% larger than junior and senior classes. 

I get that private schools are a business but the fact that you think if they cut their enrollment, they would be at risk for closing is laughable. 

[FastpacedO]

50 minutes ago, JQWL said:

So they cut their enrollment drastically to get to where they wanted and saw how much wiggle room they had. That's why theie freshmen and sophomore classes are 25% larger than junior and senior classes. 

I get that private schools are a business but the fact that you think if they cut their enrollment, they would be at risk for closing is laughable. 

[tango]

56 minutes ago, JQWL said:

So they cut their enrollment drastically to get to where they wanted and saw how much wiggle room they had. That's why theie freshmen and sophomore classes are 25% larger than junior and senior classes. 

I get that private schools are a business but the fact that you think if they cut their enrollment, they would be at risk for closing is laughable. 

Your comments indicate you have little to no understanding of how private and parochial schools operate. There is no such school in the state that "cuts enrollment" in order to achieve athletic success. 

[JQWL]

1 hour ago, tango said:

Your comments indicate you have little to no understanding of how private and parochial schools operate. There is no such school in the state that "cuts enrollment" in order to achieve athletic success. 

It's all a coincidence. You're right.

I don't know why you're so offended. I know you're a big supporter of your privates but I haven't actually accused them of doing anything wrong. I haven't accused them of doing anything that public schools are not doing. I haven't said they're getting an advantage. I pointed out they are in a great spot enrollment-wise to be successful in all sports and in my opinion, this was intentional. 

[JQWL]

1 hour ago, tango said:

Your comments indicate you have little to no understanding of how private and parochial schools operate. There is no such school in the state that "cuts enrollment" in order to achieve athletic success. 

I'll ask this since you are privy to the workings of privates. What makes them cut enrollments if not for athletics? Why is their enrollment down? Why would they not accept every student willing to pay the tuition?

[Bobref]

26 minutes ago, JQWL said:

Why would they not accept every student willing to pay the tuition?

Because they have admission standards, which is one of the things that makes private schools private. Every private school I’ve ever heard of will accept every applicant that meets their standards, as long as their facility has the capacity. There is no way a p/p would turn away a qualified paying applicant in order to stay within a particular class for athletic reasons.

[vicvinegar]

4 minutes ago, JQWL said:

I'll ask this since you are privy to the workings of privates. What makes them cut enrollments if not for athletics? Why is their enrollment down? Why would they not accept every student willing to pay the tuition?

This is a comical topic. I can only speak about Catholic schools, but every year they have "Open Houses" trying to get more students to enroll. I went to a Catholic school and plan on sending my daughter to one. At no point have I heard of Catholic schools making "cuts". Why is enrollment down? Well, less Americans attend church now than at any other point in our history. Maybe that's why. 

 

The schools don't "accept" every student willing to pay tuition, because they can't accommodate every student willing to pay tuition. At the PUBLIC SCHOOL I teach at, we are unable to accommodate students with extreme disabilities, therefore those students have to go to a different county school. Some of the students with mild disabilities at the public school I teach at require 1 on 1's. So there is a TA that walks around with that student all day long. P/P schools can't afford to pay a TA 25k/30k a year to walk around with a single student. 

I can only speak of my experience, but the Catholic School I attended had high standards. As in, if you failing classes you would be put on academic probation. No different than at a college. If you had attendance issues or disciplinary issues, you would be asked to leave. No different than students who are out of district at the school I teach. 

[tango]

1 hour ago, JQWL said:

It's all a coincidence. You're right.

I don't know why you're so offended. I know you're a big supporter of your privates but I haven't actually accused them of doing anything wrong. I haven't accused them of doing anything that public schools are not doing. I haven't said they're getting an advantage. I pointed out they are in a great spot enrollment-wise to be successful in all sports and in my opinion, this was intentional. 

 

55 minutes ago, JQWL said:

I'll ask this since you are privy to the workings of privates. What makes them cut enrollments if not for athletics? Why is their enrollment down? Why would they not accept every student willing to pay the tuition?

I apologize for the length of this post...

I am not offended by your comments and I meant no offense to you. It may not matter to you, but as an initial point private schools are fundamentally different than parochial schools. They get lumped together on the GID in discussions, but their funding sources are vastly different. As an example, Cathedral is very different than Chatard, just as Memorial and Mater Dei are very different than Evansville Day School (which few on here probably even know exists as it is not a football school). The easiest way to explain the difference is that a parochial school receives significant funding from the diocese, through the various parishes. We don't have any private Catholic schools in Evansville, but in Indy, Cathedral and Brebeuf receive no financial support from the Indianapolis Archdiocese, but Chatard, Roncalli, Scecina and Ritter do. That lack of diocesan financial support must be made up in other ways at Cathedral and Brebeuf, including by charging higher tuition. You can see this if you look at their various websites. The 4 Indy parochial schools have similar tuition, but the privates do not. Because of the financial support given, the diocese has its thumb of the parochial schools. Not saying its good or bad, it just is what it is.  

You are correct, I do have a fair amount of knowledge on this topic. I have been involved at Memorial in one way or another since 1996. I served on the governing board for the Evansville diocese that set policy for Memorial and Mater Dei (as a consolidated board) for about 8 years, and then later on the board that set policy just for Memorial (after the consolidated board was split into separate boards for each of the two Catholic schools in 2010). At no time did either school "cut enrollment", although both schools experienced enrollment declines. Mater Dei was at one time 600+. At Memorial, our enrollment peaked at 815 in 2010 (I know that because it was one of my son's freshman class), but it fell steadily every year to around 550 in 2019. MD had a less drastic fall. There were many factors, the biggest being the increasing cost of tuition, smaller incoming class sizes from the K-8 "feeder" schools, and a general decline in "churching'.  In Evansville we also have competition with a quality public school system (EVSC) and a nationally ranked charter school (Signature) that draws a lot of kids who do not participate in athletics. Memorial competes with Castle in Warrick County for students. Athletic classification by the IHSAA or athletic success in general had or has no bearing whatsoever on "enrollment decisions". We have actually adopted less restrictive policies (more relaxed dress code, acceptance of a wider variety of hair styles) in an attempt to attract more students. We have also invested more resources into hiring teachers and staff to be able to accommodate a wider range of students. Ultimately, the state adopting school choice vouchers was a big boost in helping the schools turn the tide on enrollment decline. You may be surprised to hear this, but I personally believe the state has gone too far with vouchers, but that is a topic for another day.

Memorial is now at around 615, with the biggest growth being in the last 2 years. Every parochial school in Indiana is looking to grow enrollment in any way they can, regardless of athletics. I realize that doesn't fit the narrative, but it is the reality. I am not aware of any parochial school that has a waiting list in Indiana. Memorial has the capacity for about 850 students. I can tell you that if we could add another 200 kids to get closer to that number we would do it in a heartbeat, even if not even 1 of the added students played a sport. Your opinion that enrollments are somehow capped (or even cut as you say), has no basis in fact. 

Edited November 25, 2024 by tango

[Donnie Baker]

1 hour ago, JQWL said:

It's all a coincidence. You're right.

I don't know why you're so offended. I know you're a big supporter of your privates but I haven't actually accused them of doing anything wrong. I haven't accused them of doing anything that public schools are not doing. I haven't said they're getting an advantage. I pointed out they are in a great spot enrollment-wise to be successful in all sports and in my opinion, this was intentional. 

I’m a big supporter of my privates too. I gotta go 

[FastpacedO]

1 hour ago, JQWL said:

It's all a coincidence. You're right.

I don't know why you're so offended. I know you're a big supporter of your privates but I haven't actually accused them of doing anything wrong. I haven't accused them of doing anything that public schools are not doing. I haven't said they're getting an advantage. I pointed out they are in a great spot enrollment-wise to be successful in all sports and in my opinion, this was intentional. 

The only coincidence for Providence right now getting to the 1A State Championship game is that Lutheran got bumped up to 2A (their road block in 2022 and 2023)

1 hour ago, JQWL said:

I'll ask this since you are privy to the workings of privates. What makes them cut enrollments if not for athletics? Why is their enrollment down? Why would they not accept every student willing to pay the tuition?

Answer to the first question is they didn't cut their enrollment so there is nothing that makes them cut it down. The only reason they would not accept a student is A.) if said student does not meet the enrollment requirements/standard B.) Capacity within the school if the school is maximized  its capacity they can't accept anymore.

The answer to your second question. Enrollment could be down for many reasons like A.) With inflation some families may not have the funds to send their child there B.) Lower number of P/P 8th graders applying to the school among other reasons.

The answer to your last question remains the same as number 1.

[JQWL]

10 minutes ago, Bobref said:

Because they have admission standards, which is one of the things that makes private schools private. Every private school I’ve ever heard of will accept every applicant that meets their standards, as long as their facility has the capacity. There is no way a p/p would turn away a qualified paying applicant in order to stay within a particular class for athletic reasons.

So are there fewer 

 

34 minutes ago, tango said:

 

I apologize for the length of this post...

I am not offended by your comments and I meant no offense to you. It may not matter to you, but as an initial point private schools are fundamentally different than parochial schools. They get lumped together on the GID in discussions, but their funding sources are vastly different. As an example, Cathedral is very different than Chatard, just as Memorial and Mater Dei are very different than Evansville Day School (which few on here probably even know exists as it is not a football school). The easiest way to explain the difference is that a parochial school receives significant funding from the diocese, through the various parishes. We don't have any private Catholic schools in Evansville, but in Indy, Cathedral and Brebeuf receive no financial support from the Indianapolis Archdiocese, but Chatard, Roncalli, Scecina and Ritter do. That lack of diocesan financial support must be made up in other ways at Cathedral and Brebeuf, including by charging higher tuition. You can see this if you look at their various websites. The 4 Indy parochial schools have similar tuition, but the privates do not. Because of the financial support given, the diocese has its thumb of the parochial schools. Not saying its good or bad, it just is what it is.  

You are correct, I do have a fair amount of knowledge on this topic. I have been involved at Memorial in one way or another since 1996. I served on the governing board for the Evansville diocese that set policy for Memorial and Mater Dei (as a consolidated board) for about 8 years, and then later on the board that set policy just for Memorial (after the consolidated board was split into separate boards for each of the two Catholic schools in 2010). At no time did either school "cut enrollment", although both schools experienced enrollment declines. Mater Dei was at one time 600+. At Memorial, our enrollment peaked at 815 in 2010 (I know that because it was one of my son's freshman class), but it fell steadily every year to around 550 in 2019. MD had a less drastic fall. There were many factors, the biggest being the increasing cost of tuition, smaller incoming class sizes from the K-8 "feeder" schools, and a general decline in "churching'.  In Evansville we also have competition with a quality public school system (EVSC) and a nationally ranked charter school (Signature) that draws a lot of kids who do not participate in athletics. Memorial competes with Castle in Warrick County for students. Athletic classification by the IHSAA or athletic success in general had or has no bearing whatsoever on "enrollment decisions". We have actually adopted less restrictive policies (more relaxed dress code, acceptance of a wider variety of hair styles) in an attempt to attract more students. We have also invested more resources into hiring teachers and staff to be able to accommodate a wider range of students. Ultimately, the state adopting school choice vouchers was a big boost in helping the schools turn the tide on enrollment decline. You may be surprised to hear this, but I personally believe the state has gone too far with vouchers, but that is a topic for another day.

Memorial is now at around 615, with the biggest growth being in the last 2 years. Every parochial school in Indiana is looking to grow enrollment in any way they can, regardless of athletics. I realize that doesn't fit the narrative, but it is the reality. I am not aware of any parochial school that has a waiting list in Indiana. Memorial has the capacity for about 850 students. I can tell you that if we could add another 200 kids to get closer to that number we would do it in a heartbeat, even if not even 1 of the added students played a sport. Your opinion that enrollments are somehow capped (or even cut as you say), has no basis in fact. 

Actually interesting information. Nice job.

[FastpacedO]

35 minutes ago, tango said:

 

I apologize for the length of this post...

 We have actually adopted less restrictive policies (more relaxed dress code, acceptance of a wider variety of hair styles) in an attempt to attract more students. 

What is next no more shaving requirement, allowing chewing gum, and allowing shirts to be untucked! 🤣😂

[JQWL]

6 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

The only coincidence for Providence right now getting to the 1A State Championship game is that Lutheran got bumped up to 2A (their road block in 2022 and 2023)

Answer to the first question is they didn't cut their enrollment so there is nothing that makes them cut it down. The only reason they would not accept a student is A.) if said student does not meet the enrollment requirements/standard B.) Capacity within the school if the school is maximized  its capacity they can't accept anymore.

The answer to your second question. Enrollment could be down for many reasons like A.) With inflation some families may not have the funds to send their child there B.) Lower number of P/P 8th graders applying to the school among other reasons.

The answer to your last question remains the same as number 1.

I wonder what that's like to not have to accept everyone? If you're school was only made up of the ones that met your high academic standards, and if they falter they go? Are you still helping young people at that point or are you just serving the ones already being served?

[FastpacedO]

4 minutes ago, JQWL said:

I wonder what that's like to not have to accept everyone? If you're school was only made up of the ones that met your high academic standards, and if they falter they go? Are you still helping young people at that point or are you just serving the ones already being served?

Yes there are students that falter and transfer out.  Nothing new. Some even get in there and don't like things like: dress-code etc. and transfer out. Some their parents decide they can't continue to pay the high tuition. It is not for everyone.

Edited November 25, 2024 by FastpacedO

[foxbat]

1 hour ago, JQWL said:

I'll ask this since you are privy to the workings of privates. What makes them cut enrollments if not for athletics? Why is their enrollment down? Why would they not accept every student willing to pay the tuition?

You're mixing at least a couple of different concepts together which aren't the same.  Controlling for admissions standards is distinctly different than the accusatory reduction of enrollment for athletic purposes ... and again, I think it's a leap to try to co-mingle the two to make an accusation. 

As for why they don't, the number of folks who send their kids to private schools SOLELY for the religious aspect, is not a majority.  Some do it solely for tradition and/or religion, but I can say that most look at that as an ADDED item.  They are looking for academics and a private school that can't deliver on academics will falter regardless of religion.

Again, having sat in the pews during enrollment week and again, coming from traditional Catholic education families, I've now lived in four different states and not in any one of those states have I ever heard of or seen a Catholic school limit numbers for athletics. 

 

3 hours ago, JQWL said:

So they cut their enrollment drastically to get to where they wanted and saw how much wiggle room they had. That's why theie freshmen and sophomore classes are 25% larger than junior and senior classes. 

I get that private schools are a business but the fact that you think if they cut their enrollment, they would be at risk for closing is laughable. 

No, that's your conjecture.  At least be big enough to say that, in your opinion that's what you think.  I gave two SPECIFIC instances using two SPECIFIC schools where the foundational argument that you were making to make an accusation, population increase in an area coupled with decrease in a school's enrollment has some artificial correlation.  As @Bobref is fond of saying, and applies in this case, "Correlation does not equal causation."  By your logic, Providence was willing to give up over $800,000 in tuition just to drop down to 1A to win a (maybe) pair of state rings only to be thrust up into 2A on an SF charge is equally laughable.  And again, it's interesting that the basis of the accusation is conjecture, whereas there has been details shown that poke big holes in the foundational argument for accusation that you are making. 

I'll give you another specific example to disprove the idea: Traders Point Christian.  Started out in IHSAA ineligible for tournament in its early years due to newness.  First year they were eligible they had 128 students in their whole school.  Never really got much bigger.  If the numbers are so easy to pickup, and these folks are out in the same neck of the woods with Pike, Westfield, Zionsville, Brownsburg, and Lebanon ... with those first four schools, 5A and 6A level, being less than 10 miles away ... why wouldn't Trader's Point Christian control their numbers upwards of 200 students to be able to dominate 1A football?  Matter of fact, they've gone in the opposite direction and opted to now play 8-man ball.  This is a team that, adding 200 folks from the 2nd/3rd string coffers of Westfield and Brownsburg, would easily run roughshod over 1A. 

[tango]

34 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

What is next no more shaving requirement, allowing chewing gum, and allowing shirts to be untucked! 🤣😂

LOL. Still have to shave. Chewing gum was allowed way back when I attended (1982-86). Shirts must be tucked in. Got rid of ties for a couple of years but enough alums complained and they are back.

Edited November 25, 2024 by tango

[foxbat]

1 minute ago, tango said:

LOL. Still have to shave. Chewing gum was allowed way back when I attended (1982-86). Shirts must be tucked in. 

It is a kinder, gentler Catholic education.  I heard the nuns have now moved to non-corporal correction as opposed to the rulers wielded like Crusaders back when I was in Catholic grade school.