Neighbors to the West, Unhappy

[jets]

3 hours ago, FastpacedO said:

Serious question (because I do not have a clue). Has any school that has the waiver to be exempt from the multiplier benefitted (been to or won a State Championship in Illinois). I seriously do not know.

My honest opinion any multiplier (this goes for any State) does not work and is nothing but a bandaid to give the optics that (insert name) Athletic Association is trying to combat what is deemed as an unlevel playing field. Contrary to popular belief or hot takes it is not just P/P there are Public schools that enjoy advantages over other Public schools (especially in Indiana where there is open enrollment). I don't have a perfect solution because I think there are multiple things that need to happen, but a multiplier does absolutely nothing.

HAHA - if you honestly believe that P/P don't hold any discernible advantages - then this discussion is a mute point. Chatard, Luers, Lutheran, Cathedral, Roncalli, Memorial etc etc etc...the list goes on and on. I can promise you, they are not "just better at playing football" then the public counterparts. We need a system that "levels" the "unlevel" advantages the p/p enjoy over their public counterparts - and that is their enrollment is.not.the.same EVEN THOUGH it may be the same number. If you don't understand that, I can't help you. 

[FastpacedO]

Just now, jets said:

HAHA - if you honestly believe that P/P don't hold any discernible advantages - then this discussion is a mute point. Chatard, Luers, Lutheran, Cathedral, Roncalli, Memorial etc etc etc...the list goes on and on. I can promise you, they are not "just better at playing football" then the public counterparts. We need a system that "levels" the "unlevel" advantages the p/p enjoy over their public counterparts - and that is their enrollment is.not.the.same EVEN THOUGH it may be the same number. If you don't understand that, I can't help you. 

You are not very good at comprehension are you. Yes there are advantages that Private/Parochial schools have over public schools, there are also advantages that Public schools have over other Public schools. There are advantages that some public schools have over Private/Parochial schools. You totally missed the point of the post. The point of the post is NO MULTIPLIER is going to achieve what you want it to achieve. There are "MORE" factors than just "enrollment" which is what a "MULTIPLIER" is addressing. If you can't grasp that then I can't help you either. 

[JQWL]

1 hour ago, FastpacedO said:

You are not very good at comprehension are you. Yes there are advantages that Private/Parochial schools have over public schools, there are also advantages that Public schools have over other Public schools. There are advantages that some public schools have over Private/Parochial schools. You totally missed the point of the post. The point of the post is NO MULTIPLIER is going to achieve what you want it to achieve. There are "MORE" factors than just "enrollment" which is what a "MULTIPLIER" is addressing. If you can't grasp that then I can't help you either. 

I am not disagreeing with your post at all.

What do you perceive as advantages that public schools have over private schools?

[Coach Nowlin]

Up in NWI, I will tell you that Andrean may have the worse facilities / School of all the PP in the state.  It's old, full of band aides, the list goes on.   

Diocese decided to help fund BNI and its school/facilities instead.  

So much for that rumored school off 231 in CP for the 59ers.   Can't just move away from 5959 Broadway and become the Andrean Popes or something of that nature 🙂

So that would be considered an advantage for public school in my neck of the woods if that is a thing to consider for families 

 

[Muda69]

1 hour ago, jets said:

HAHA - if you honestly believe that P/P don't hold any discernible advantages - then this discussion is a mute point. Chatard, Luers, Lutheran, Cathedral, Roncalli, Memorial etc etc etc...the list goes on and on. I can promise you, they are not "just better at playing football" then the public counterparts. We need a system that "levels" the "unlevel" advantages the p/p enjoy over their public counterparts - and that is their enrollment is.not.the.same EVEN THOUGH it may be the same number. If you don't understand that, I can't help you. 

Which is why only a true system of promotion/relegation is the answer. Take enrollment out the equation entirely.

 

19 minutes ago, Coach Nowlin said:

So that would be considered an advantage for public school in my neck of the woods if that is a thing to consider for families 

 

A cool mascot name.

 

[jets]

1 hour ago, FastpacedO said:

You are not very good at comprehension are you. Yes there are advantages that Private/Parochial schools have over public schools, there are also advantages that Public schools have over other Public schools. There are advantages that some public schools have over Private/Parochial schools. You totally missed the point of the post. The point of the post is NO MULTIPLIER is going to achieve what you want it to achieve. There are "MORE" factors than just "enrollment" which is what a "MULTIPLIER" is addressing. If you can't grasp that then I can't help you either. 

We could go back-and-forth all day over this issue. 

IN MY OPINION (which according to some on here isn't worth much) - AT LEAST Illinois is ATTEMPTING to address the OBVIOUS advantages that P/P hold, and THAT IS their enrollment advantages. Memorial/Chatard's 620 students ARE NOT the same as a public school's 620 students. Thus, a multiplier

Then, a success factor for those public schools that might hold "other advantages" as you put it. 

I don't agree with Illinois on MUCH, but in this regard, they earn my applause  

[foxbat]

1 hour ago, Muda69 said:

We get it. Harrison is a rich school in a rich district. So many of the kids probably:

a. Participate in soccer/gymnastics/track/field/swimming/wrestling/tennis/softball  at the travel/club level in addition to the Harrison teams.  Cost: big $.

b. Have parents who pay big $ for their little Johnny or Susan have professional personal training/coaching in the aforementioned sports.  

Interesting take; however, the person that I responded to made a statement about students knowing about soccer and not football and wondering why the school had to be classified 6A for football.

[FastpacedO]

43 minutes ago, jets said:

We could go back-and-forth all day over this issue. 

IN MY OPINION (which according to some on here isn't worth much) - AT LEAST Illinois is ATTEMPTING to address the OBVIOUS advantages that P/P hold, and THAT IS their enrollment advantages. Memorial/Chatard's 620 students ARE NOT the same as a public school's 620 students. Thus, a multiplier

Then, a success factor for those public schools that might hold "other advantages" as you put it. 

I don't agree with Illinois on MUCH, but in this regard, they earn my applause  

A multiplier then will achieve exactly what you want it to achieve. It will give you (and a few others) the optics that they are attempting to address advantages in enrollment and make you feel all warm and fuzzy. Meanwhile in doing so nothing will change but the optics sure do look good right? 

[FastpacedO]

1 hour ago, JQWL said:

I am not disagreeing with your post at all.

What do you perceive as advantages that public schools have over private schools?

@Coach Nowlin hit the nail on the head. That is why he is our resident WOF celebrity!

When I posted I made sure to put some not all when stating that some Public schools have advantages over Private/Parochial schools. That doesn't mean those advantages give them a leg up. I am stating that there are advantages that P/P enjoy over Public schools. I just don't feel a multiplier is going to do anything to accomplish what most want when it comes to leveling. It may give some a sense they are attempting to do something but it won't accomplish anything. It has been proven by many States that it doesn't do much.

1 hour ago, Coach Nowlin said:

Up in NWI, I will tell you that Andrean may have the worse facilities / School of all the PP in the state.  It's old, full of band aides, the list goes on.   

Diocese decided to help fund BNI and its school/facilities instead.  

So much for that rumored school off 231 in CP for the 59ers.   Can't just move away from 5959 Broadway and become the Andrean Popes or something of that nature 🙂

So that would be considered an advantage for public school in my neck of the woods if that is a thing to consider for families 

 

 

[PHJIrish]

17 hours ago, Irishman said:

Your bias is showing. One could also say that for years prior to the success factor, public schools with disadvantaged populations were being penalized by having to face private schools on a regular basis, in many cases yearly, who do not have a disadvantaged population, giving them an inherent advantage. By the way, public schools are impacted by the success factor as well. 

Yep!

[wabashalwaysfights]

55 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

A multiplier then will achieve exactly what you want it to achieve. It will give you (and a few others) the optics that they are attempting to address advantages in enrollment and make you feel all warm and fuzzy. Meanwhile in doing so nothing will change but the optics sure do look good right? 

That's what this all seems to be boiling down to.  I guess I don't see an issue with what is currently being done here in Indiana with the success factor.  It's not perfect, for example I'd rather see it calculated based on a 3-5 year window rather than 2, but I've always had a problem with the implication of a multiplier which is "students who attend private schools are better (for whatever reason, athletically, financially, etc) so they need to be counted differently."  They are high school students just like public school kids whose families have made decisions decisions based on factors that are important to them.  At least the success factor is based on actual play on field over the course of a measurable period of time and not some random number someone cooks up to, as FastpacedO alludes, make people feel better.

Also, hot take: this thread doesn't get past 4 pages before it gets shut down... I'm perfectly willing to be wrong though

[tango]

2 hours ago, JQWL said:

I am not disagreeing with your post at all.

What do you perceive as advantages that public schools have over private schools?

Two obvious ones are no tuition and in many cases, better facilities - weight room, etc.

[jets]

1 hour ago, FastpacedO said:

A multiplier then will achieve exactly what you want it to achieve. It will give you (and a few others) the optics that they are attempting to address advantages in enrollment and make you feel all warm and fuzzy. Meanwhile in doing so nothing will change but the optics sure do look good right? 

 

31 minutes ago, wabashalwaysfights said:

That's what this all seems to be boiling down to.  I guess I don't see an issue with what is currently being done here in Indiana with the success factor.  It's not perfect, for example I'd rather see it calculated based on a 3-5 year window rather than 2, but I've always had a problem with the implication of a multiplier which is "students who attend private schools are better (for whatever reason, athletically, financially, etc) so they need to be counted differently."  They are high school students just like public school kids whose families have made decisions decisions based on factors that are important to them.  At least the success factor is based on actual play on field over the course of a measurable period of time and not some random number someone cooks up to, as FastpacedO alludes, make people feel better.

Also, hot take: this thread doesn't get past 4 pages before it gets shut down... I'm perfectly willing to be wrong though

I think you are missing the point of a multiplier ...it is implemented (at least, to my understanding) to acknowledge the fact that P/P enrollment (for the most part) doesn't have Special Education programs, and/or low socio-economic/disadvantaged students - thus creating an advantage when your sole factor in classification is enrollment number. Again, Chatard/Memorial's 620 is not the same as a public's 620. 

I do applaud the success factor and agree it has been a good thing. Just ask the Patriots this year...they may not have had that blue ring if Chatard was in 3A. 

[Coach Nowlin]

3 minutes ago, tango said:

Two obvious ones are no tuition and in many cases, better facilities - weight room, etc.

Not always the case, if you live outside the borders of the public school you must pay to come

 

Advantage of Private vs Pubic which I am sure you all are aware of

What is the population of students at Andrean and Lafayette Central Catholic (the 2 I am most familiar with) of ESL students and IEP/SPED programing?  

 

For instance last I checked Rensselaer had about 35 or so students who are very much low level 0 ESL students and another good chunk of Life Skills students, so if our enrollment on paper is 435, in actuality of available athletes pool is really about 350.   Do you think Rensselaer has 88% Athletic participation like Andrean does ?   Yes that's right, it's near 90% of every human being of HS age at Andrean is involved in at least 1 SPORT the school offers.  So with an enrollment of 450 or so, at near 90%, that is whole lot of options to choose from to make your athletic teams.   I am pretty sure LCC is very similar.  

So when these conversations happen, this is what many publics fans/coaches. etc get frustrated with.    Its a stacked deck when it comes PP and how their classification is figured out because PP can control an enrollment by simply not having programing that Publics have to offer, such as SPED services, migrant/transient families who show up within the school borders.   

Please don't look at this message as me whining about LCC/Andrean for instance, many great peoples and Coach Skinner is a very close friend of mine and I am very much a Coach Nay fan as well.   These are just the facts of why many get frustrated.   

We have been knocked out by Luers in 2009/2010 Semi State and we've. beaten LCC in 2014 Semi State and Mater Dei in state same year, not one time during these games or any other have our coaches talked or made this a talking point for our players in prep.   Just went out and did what we did and sometimes it has went really well, others times not so much.   

[FastpacedO]

19 minutes ago, jets said:

 

I think you are missing the point of a multiplier ...it is implemented (at least, to my understanding) to acknowledge the fact that P/P enrollment (for the most part) doesn't have Special Education programs, and/or low socio-economic/disadvantaged students - thus creating an advantage when your sole factor in classification is enrollment number. Again, Chatard/Memorial's 620 is not the same as a public's 620. 

I do applaud the success factor and agree it has been a good thing. Just ask the Patriots this year...they may not have had that blue ring if Chatard was in 3A. 

I know what the point of a multiplier is. I am telling you it is as useless as a paperbag in a rainstorm. It does not change anything or do what you want it to do.

[jets]

27 minutes ago, Coach Nowlin said:

Not always the case, if you live outside the borders of the public school you must pay to come

 

Advantage of Private vs Pubic which I am sure you all are aware of

What is the population of students at Andrean and Lafayette Central Catholic (the 2 I am most familiar with) of ESL students and IEP/SPED programing?  

 

For instance last I checked Rensselaer had about 35 or so students who are very much low level 0 ESL students and another good chunk of Life Skills students, so if our enrollment on paper is 435, in actuality of available athletes pool is really about 350.   Do you think Rensselaer has 88% Athletic participation like Andrean does ?   Yes that's right, it's near 90% of every human being of HS age at Andrean is involved in at least 1 SPORT the school offers.  So with an enrollment of 450 or so, at near 90%, that is whole lot of options to choose from to make your athletic teams.   I am pretty sure LCC is very similar.  

So when these conversations happen, this is what many publics fans/coaches. etc get frustrated with.    Its a stacked deck when it comes PP and how their classification is figured out because PP can control an enrollment by simply not having programing that Publics have to offer, such as SPED services, migrant/transient families who show up within the school borders.   

Please don't look at this message as me whining about LCC/Andrean for instance, many great peoples and Coach Skinner is a very close friend of mine and I am very much a Coach Nay fan as well.   These are just the facts of why many get frustrated.   

We have been knocked out by Luers in 2009/2010 Semi State and we've. beaten LCC in 2014 Semi State and Mater Dei in state same year, not one time during these games or any other have our coaches talked or made this a talking point for our players in prep.   Just went out and did what we did and sometimes it has went really well, others times not so much.   

You have no idea...or what do the kids say nowadays "hold my beer" 

[Coach Nowlin]

I think I do since it cost us 2 years in 3a 

[wabashalwaysfights]

20 minutes ago, jets said:

 

I think you are missing the point of a multiplier ...it is implemented (at least, to my understanding) to acknowledge the fact that P/P enrollment (for the most part) doesn't have Special Education programs, and/or low socio-economic/disadvantaged students - thus creating an advantage when your sole factor in classification is enrollment number. Again, Chatard/Memorial's 620 is not the same as a public's 620. 

I do applaud the success factor and agree it has been a good thing. Just ask the Patriots this year...they may not have had that blue ring if Chatard was in 3A. 

No, I get it completely, I still disagree with the premise.  And I get the argument that you are making in regard to the numbers not being the same, my point is this; even if you are correct, which I don't think you are, let that play out on the field and if/when those advantages are born out, you adjust accordingly, i.e. the success factor.  I see no reason however to, without seeing it born out, just slapping a random number multiplier on it; it is illogical at best and nefarious at worst.

What we have seems to work just fine, why mess with it?

[jets]

26 minutes ago, Coach Nowlin said:

I think I do since it cost us 2 years in 3a 

Sure...what I meant is take the situation you are describing and multiply it by 10X - thus making us a permanent residence in a classification we probably don't belong in when comparing student participation numbers. As is life though...

[Coach Nowlin]

2 minutes ago, jets said:

Sure...what I meant is take the situation you are describing and multiply it by 10X - thus making us a permanent residence in a classification we probably don't belong in when comparing student participation numbers. As is life though...

Indeed 

[tango]

2 hours ago, Coach Nowlin said:

Not always the case, if you live outside the borders of the public school you must pay to come

I was referring to a parent who is comparing a public school (let's say Castle) and a p/p school (let's say Ev. Memorial). Castle is free and has incredible facilities - far superior to Memorial in every way. Plus, the parent has to transport the child to Memorial (at least until they can drive if they are lucky enough to have a set of wheels). So in that respect, Castle has very distinct advantages over Memorial. 

I am not a denier. I understand the student populations are different, some much more than others. But in my opinion, the answer is not a blanket multiplier applied to all p/p schools regardless of relative success. How can anyone rationalize multiplying schools like Hammond Bishop Noll, Washington Catholic, or Vincennes Rivet? 

Edited December 3, 2024 by tango

[wabashalwaysfights]

14 minutes ago, tango said:

I am not a denier. I understand the student populations are different, some much more than others. But in my opinion, the answer is not a blanket multiplier applied to all p/p schools regardless of relative success. How can anyone rationalize multiplying schools like Hammond Bishop Noll, Washington Catholic, or Vincennes Rivet? 

This right here.

To the ardent multiplier crowd, a question: why is a multiplier necessary as opposed to or in addition to what is already being done with the success factor?

[Coach Nowlin]

https://chicago.suntimes.com/high-school-football/2024/12/09/ihsa-high-school-football-classification-change-illinois

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/ihsa-changed-classification-cycle-means-013851216.html

 

The IHSA board of directors approved a one-year classification cycle after private schools dominated football title games

[wabashalwaysfights]

2 hours ago, Coach Nowlin said:

The IHSA board of directors approved a one-year classification cycle after private schools dominated football title games

So this is essentially full on promotion?  Not so much relegation, but that is an unintended consequence no?

[Titan32]

On 12/10/2024 at 1:02 PM, wabashalwaysfights said:

So this is essentially full on promotion?  Not so much relegation, but that is an unintended consequence no?

This multiplier (below) doesn't seem so arbitrary....and it gets to the heart of the issue.  Enrollment alone doesn't work for classification because the enrollment types are so catastrophically different.

In addition....having to drive ones child to school....or a school having a newer squat rack than you doesn't give the publics any advantage, this is just silly.

It's beyond comical to watch you guys try and defend such an unfair system.  I just wonder how some of these "legend" P/P coaches around our state would have fared at ANY equally enrolled public in our state.  I know the answer and you guys do too.

It's not the coaches....it's not tradition....it's not feeder schools....it's not recruiting...it's not hard-working Catholic ancestry.  It is and always has been about quality, coachable, success-driven student-athletes per capita in the building (as is the nature of a pay-for-play enterprise).  Enrollment alone won't work....why do you think every state in the union struggles with this and there are all kinds of solutions across our country.  Some are better than others but ours isn't enough.