Schedule Upgrades

[PDB26]

On 2/4/2025 at 11:44 AM, US31 said:

As a former "North" player....Glad to see more and more HCC/MIC* vs "True North" 6A non con games.  I think this is an overall plus for Indiana football.  Off the top of my head...

• CP vs Pike
• FWC vs HSE & CG
• Homestead vs Westfield & Noblesville (Carmel last year)
• Snider vs WC last two years but nothing this year?
• (I'm not including now 5A Warsaw - Playing WC)

Why not similar scheduling from....

• Penn: Played Cathedral (I know not MIC or HCC) multiple times recently but nothing this year?  None of the out of state powers they have played recenlty either??
• Elkhart????

I don't want to sound like I'm bashing here, but I am generally curious.  Their schedules are full of 5A, 4A, and even 3A schools.  In fact it looks like the only 6A games for either are each other.  I know their conference limits them but is this the reason they are viewed as second tier to the first 4 programs?  Would Brownsburg have preferred to play a Penn or Elkhart over Jeffersonville? Would Carmel have preffered to restart a Penn rivalry over Centerville (OH)? Would LC prefer to play up North as opposed to Edwardsville (Ill)? Cathedral has 3-4 out of state games per year, would they prefer an Indiana opponent? (Honestly don't know). 

I'm really not sure what to say about Penn (and Elkhart). The old two-division NIC offered Penn a lot of scheduling flexibility. I think, don't hold me to it, but I think Penn and Carmel were slated to start up again prior to the implosion of the NIC's small-school division. For now, it seems Penn has chosen to stick with Valpo and Mishawaka––both fine programs in their own right––which would be a defensible decision if they played a schedule that was rounded out with seven games against 6A opponents instead of six games against mostly underachieving 5A, 4A, and 3A programs plus the one run with Elkhart. I don't think this is the reason Penn would be perceived as a second tier 6A program.

I think we'd all agree Penn's high-water mark was from about 1995-2002, give or take, but, despite carrying on for another 15 years within arms reach of that level, they really fell off following the 2017 season––notwithstanding a handful of nasty results in the tournament/state finals during that stretch. I think you could explain away the handful of bad results in the tournament from 2003-2017, but Penn's struggles throughout the last six seasons certainly give the impression that Penn has slid all the way into a second tier of 6A football. Outside of taking CP to the wire in 2023, they've had nothing to hang their hat on coming out of games against peer competition. They absolutely have to find a way to increase the quality of the reps that guys are getting throughout their years in the program––which, to me, is the thing that has separated the central Indiana 6As from the rest. 

[adambetz]

16 hours ago, PDB26 said:

I'm really not sure what to say about Penn (and Elkhart). The old two-division NIC offered Penn a lot of scheduling flexibility. I think, don't hold me to it, but I think Penn and Carmel were slated to start up again prior to the implosion of the NIC's small-school division. For now, it seems Penn has chosen to stick with Valpo and Mishawaka––both fine programs in their own right––which would be a defensible decision if they played a schedule that was rounded out with seven games against 6A opponents instead of six games against mostly underachieving 5A, 4A, and 3A programs plus the one run with Elkhart. I don't think this is the reason Penn would be perceived as a second tier 6A program.

I think we'd all agree Penn's high-water mark was from about 1995-2002, give or take, but, despite carrying on for another 15 years within arms reach of that level, they really fell off following the 2017 season––notwithstanding a handful of nasty results in the tournament/state finals during that stretch. I think you could explain away the handful of bad results in the tournament from 2003-2017, but Penn's struggles throughout the last six seasons certainly give the impression that Penn has slid all the way into a second tier of 6A football. Outside of taking CP to the wire in 2023, they've had nothing to hang their hat on coming out of games against peer competition. They absolutely have to find a way to increase the quality of the reps that guys are getting throughout their years in the program––which, to me, is the thing that has separated the central Indiana 6As from the rest. 

Would Penn accept an NLC invite/ would the NLC invite Penn?

[Bobref]

10 minutes ago, adambetz said:

Would Penn accept an NLC invite/ would the NLC invite Penn?

No chance. Either way.

[kdets89]

On 2/4/2025 at 1:13 PM, adambetz said:

I see Linton has three weeks open on Harrell. Weeks 1, 3 and 6.

The best instate option for week one would be Greenwood Christian. Disappointing, but should be better than Phalen Academy.

The fun options come in weeks 3 and 6. Indy Lutheran has an opening in week 3 and a solid Wheeler squad is the best possible matchup in week 6.

Anyone know who they are actually going to pick up? I figure they'll probably cross state lines sometime at least once.

With the changes to the ICC, Indy Lutheran had two additional non-conference weeks to fill.  Significant adds for 2025 are games at 5A New Albany and hosting 5A McCutcheon.  A week 3 game with Linton would be a good fit, but could also be week 14 matchup. 

Personally, while The Roy provides a great game environment, I absolutely HATE filming there!

[US31]

3 hours ago, adambetz said:

Would Penn accept an NLC invite/ would the NLC invite Penn?

IGNORE MY ABOVE POST BECAUSE I'M AN IDIOT AND FORGOT THE MINI-MEN!!! Sorry Dunlap!

While it wouldn't directly address the "upgrade" issues....I would suggest a NIC/NLC realignment is long past due...especially given the performance discrepencies in the NLC and size discrepencies in the NIC

The "Bigs".  In a eight team conference, Penn, Elkhart, Warsaw, et al can schedule whatever size schools they wish.  The ex-NLC schools can still scheudle non-cons against old rivals.  Goshen & Adams have each other at least...

1. Penn
2. Elkhart
3. Warsaw
4. Concord
5. Mishawaka
6. New Prarie
7. Adams
8. Goshen

EDIT: I forgot the Mini-Men😜

The "Not-So-Bigs".  More balanced size wise...the ex-NLC teams can still schedule non-cons vs old rivals in the other conference. I'd argue this one is more competitive from top to almost the bottom (in a variety of sports).

1. Northwood
2. Northridge
3. Plymouth
4. Wawasee
5. Marian
6. St Joe
7. Washington
8. Riley

 

3 hours ago, Bobref said:

No chance. Either way.

Despite how easy it seems to split these schools up into two "new" versions (that IMHO make the situation better for pretty much all schools (except maybe Adams and Goshen)....I fully agree with Bob.  Because of some of the schools involved, it will never happen.

[adambetz]

52 minutes ago, US31 said:

IGNORE MY ABOVE POST BECAUSE I'M AN IDIOT AND FORGOT THE MINI-MEN!!! Sorry Dunlap!

While it wouldn't directly address the "upgrade" issues....I would suggest a NIC/NLC realignment is long past due...especially given the performance discrepencies in the NLC and size discrepencies in the NIC

The "Bigs".  In a eight team conference, Penn, Elkhart, Warsaw, et al can schedule whatever size schools they wish.  The ex-NLC schools can still scheudle non-cons against old rivals.  Goshen & Adams have each other at least...

1. Penn
2. Elkhart
3. Warsaw
4. Concord
5. Mishawaka
6. New Prarie
7. Adams
8. Goshen

EDIT: I forgot the Mini-Men😜

The "Not-So-Bigs".  More balanced size wise...the ex-NLC teams can still schedule non-cons vs old rivals in the other conference. I'd argue this one is more competitive from top to almost the bottom (in a variety of sports).

1. Northwood
2. Northridge
3. Plymouth
4. Wawasee
5. Marian
6. St Joe
7. Washington
8. Riley

 

Despite how easy it seems to split these schools up into two "new" versions (that IMHO make the situation better for pretty much all schools (except maybe Adams and Goshen)....I fully agree with Bob.  Because of some of the schools involved, it will never happen.

Flip flop Adams and Goshen for Northridge and Northwood and I'm in. I'm pro Wawasee leaving the NLC for competition reasons and this would really help them.

[CoachMack219]

On 2/4/2025 at 9:40 AM, Donnie Baker said:

That boy named Cody says it’s a 2 score game 

Loyola Academy 49

Merrillville 7

But yes, he does think it'll be a 2 score game. Lol 

[US31]

1 hour ago, adambetz said:

Flip flop Adams and Goshen for Northridge and Northwood and I'm in. I'm pro Wawasee leaving the NLC for competition reasons and this would really help them.

No real argument from a competitive standpoint....The only reason for putting them in the "bigs" is because they are 5A.  NW/NR are 4A.  For good, bad, or indifferent that was my thought process.

[adambetz]

5 hours ago, US31 said:

No real argument from a competitive standpoint....The only reason for putting them in the "bigs" is because they are 5A.  NW/NR are 4A.  For good, bad, or indifferent that was my thought process.

100% fair

[psaboy]

On 2/4/2025 at 11:44 AM, US31 said:

As a former "North" player....Glad to see more and more HCC/MIC* vs "True North" 6A non con games.  I think this is an overall plus for Indiana football.  Off the top of my head...

• CP vs Pike
• FWC vs HSE & CG
• Homestead vs Westfield & Noblesville (Carmel last year)
• Snider vs WC last two years but nothing this year?
• (I'm not including now 5A Warsaw - Playing WC)

Why not similar scheduling from....

• Penn: Played Cathedral (I know not MIC or HCC) multiple times recently but nothing this year?  None of the out of state powers they have played recenlty either??
• Elkhart????

I don't want to sound like I'm bashing here, but I am generally curious.  Their schedules are full of 5A, 4A, and even 3A schools.  In fact it looks like the only 6A games for either are each other.  I know their conference limits them but is this the reason they are viewed as second tier to the first 4 programs?  Would Brownsburg have preferred to play a Penn or Elkhart over Jeffersonville? Would Carmel have preffered to restart a Penn rivalry over Centerville (OH)? Would LC prefer to play up North as opposed to Edwardsville (Ill)? Cathedral has 3-4 out of state games per year, would they prefer an Indiana opponent? (Honestly don't know). 

Not really impressed with Snider's two games, East Noble and Warsaw. Need to get two Indy area teams onto schedule every year. 

 

[First_Backer_Inside]

14 hours ago, psaboy said:

Not really impressed with Snider's two games, East Noble and Warsaw. Need to get two Indy area teams onto schedule every year. 

 

I would agree with dropping the East Noble game, but I would keep the Warsaw game. I understand Indy area might give them better competitive look, but in recent years in the playoffs, Snider has struggled with option teams defensively. This gives them a chance to see it before they get to the playoffs and know how to prepare for it when the season isn't on the line. Just my two cents. They could upgrade that East Noble game tho.

[adambetz]

On 2/9/2025 at 7:39 PM, psaboy said:

Not really impressed with Snider's two games, East Noble and Warsaw. Need to get two Indy area teams onto schedule every year. 

 

Agree. Even though both those teams are really really REALLY good right now and seemingly should be for a while, that Warren Central game felt so natural. Maybe they can sneak back into that scheduling spot when Warsaw's series with WC is over.

[Yuccaguy]

On 2/10/2025 at 9:56 AM, First_Backer_Inside said:

I would agree with dropping the East Noble game, but I would keep the Warsaw game. I understand Indy area might give them better competitive look, but in recent years in the playoffs, Snider has struggled with option teams defensively. This gives them a chance to see it before they get to the playoffs and know how to prepare for it when the season isn't on the line. Just my two cents. They could upgrade that East Noble game tho.

From the approach of what Snider "should do" this makes sense.  But from the aspect of East Noble...This is a GREAT matchup to prep them for 4A football.  

Sometimes the other side of the coin needs to be taken into consideration also.  

[psaboy]

2 hours ago, Yuccaguy said:

From the approach of what Snider "should do" this makes sense.  But from the aspect of East Noble...This is a GREAT matchup to prep them for 4A football.  

Sometimes the other side of the coin needs to be taken into consideration also.  

From an East Noble view, sure. From a Snider view, no. Snider is a "tweener" IMO. Top end of 5A but low end 6A, the will bounce back and forth classes. 

[First_Backer_Inside]

13 hours ago, Yuccaguy said:

From the approach of what Snider "should do" this makes sense.  But from the aspect of East Noble...This is a GREAT matchup to prep them for 4A football.  

Sometimes the other side of the coin needs to be taken into consideration also.  

Completely agree. I would say there are more options for East Noble to find a great matchup for themselves to prep them for 4A than there is for Snider to prep themselves for 6A. If Snider were to drop East Noble, hopefully East Noble goes out and finds another 5A or 6A that can better them for the rest of their season. From an East Noble standpoint, you are absolutely correct.

[foxbat]

Not necessarily "upgrades" per se, but some steps in the right direction until things get more on track.

Harrison was finally starting to get some traction in 5A, then slipped into the lower part of 6A.  Then toss in that the coach that was getting them to progress, departed.  Of course, being booted from their conference added to all of the instability, but to be honest there wasn't much in the NCC for them to really get them ready for post-season outside of Jeff and occasionally Kokomo.

With that said, their schedule has some challenges to it this year.  While argument can be that they are playing outside of their class, which is likely to be the case for most 6A schools without a conference, it's not a bad start to working toward getting some stabilization.  They kickoff with West Lafayette and Plainfield as they have in the last couple of seasons.  Plainfield and Harrison were fairly evenly matched over the last three seasons.  West Lafayette is West Lafayette and is typically a strong contender in their class.  Harrison will also be playing Brebeuf, Roncalli, and Chatard which will be a much better mix that playing Richmond, Anderson, and Marion.  Incidentally, Harrison has been playing Chatard and Brebeuf over the years in freshman and JV games, so this isn't necessarily a new twist to the relationships.  They still will play sister school McCutcheon and cross-river rival, now 5A, Jeff.  They will add Lebanon, who will be a new conference partner, and a 6A team, North Central.

Again, not a phenomenal schedule, but one that at least goes in the right direction, especially accounting for all of recent changes to their situation.

 

 

[Yuccaguy]

21 minutes ago, foxbat said:

Not necessarily "upgrades" per se, but some steps in the right direction until things get more on track.

Harrison was finally starting to get some traction in 5A, then slipped into the lower part of 6A.  Then toss in that the coach that was getting them to progress, departed.  Of course, being booted from their conference added to all of the instability, but to be honest there wasn't much in the NCC for them to really get them ready for post-season outside of Jeff and occasionally Kokomo.

With that said, their schedule has some challenges to it this year.  While argument can be that they are playing outside of their class, which is likely to be the case for most 6A schools without a conference, it's not a bad start to working toward getting some stabilization.  They kickoff with West Lafayette and Plainfield as they have in the last couple of seasons.  Plainfield and Harrison were fairly evenly matched over the last three seasons.  West Lafayette is West Lafayette and is typically a strong contender in their class.  Harrison will also be playing Brebeuf, Roncalli, and Chatard which will be a much better mix that playing Richmond, Anderson, and Marion.  Incidentally, Harrison has been playing Chatard and Brebeuf over the years in freshman and JV games, so this isn't necessarily a new twist to the relationships.  They still will play sister school McCutcheon and cross-river rival, now 5A, Jeff.  They will add Lebanon, who will be a new conference partner, and a 6A team, North Central.

Again, not a phenomenal schedule, but one that at least goes in the right direction, especially accounting for all of recent changes to their situation.

 

 

You (Harrison) in some circumstances need to take what is in front of you in order to "advance". 

Harrison is a different situation tan that which is has been espoused by others in this discussion.  In ways of conference change, as well as classification disruption(s). 

Were you to press me; I'd say this is fine for the Raiders at this point.  Should they feel a sense of advancement in the ensuing seasons, then look for more competition.  But IMO, THIS schedule will more than allow them to be a force in the Sagamore and perhaps 6A (ping pong balls).  

[foxbat]

22 minutes ago, Yuccaguy said:

You (Harrison) in some circumstances need to take what is in front of you in order to "advance". 

Harrison is a different situation tan that which is has been espoused by others in this discussion.  In ways of conference change, as well as classification disruption(s). 

Were you to press me; I'd say this is fine for the Raiders at this point.  Should they feel a sense of advancement in the ensuing seasons, then look for more competition.  But IMO, THIS schedule will more than allow them to be a force in the Sagamore and perhaps 6A (ping pong balls).  

Right now, being the new kid to 6A and switching conferences, they are going to have some struggles getting some of the other 6As to pull them in for, at least, a home-and-home for a few years, much less a regular seasonal schedule-mate.  I'm hoping that they will be able to gain some foundation as they get past these transitions and become more desirable as an opponent for other 6As and upper 5As.  Just about a decade ago, this was a program that posted three 0-10 seasons in a row and hadn't seen a winning season since 1996 until Coach Peeples showed up in 2014, so getting on track is certainly doable.

The ping pong balls are going to be problematic for Harrison in the near future as they have former-nemesis Westfield in Sectional 3 along with really large school, Carmel.

[CoachMack219]

On 2/14/2025 at 7:32 PM, foxbat said:

Not necessarily "upgrades" per se, but some steps in the right direction until things get more on track.

Again, not a phenomenal schedule, but one that at least goes in the right direction, especially accounting for all of recent changes to their situation.

 

Foxbat, I really like this schedule upgrade for Harrison. I would definitely consider it an upgrade as well given what it was to what it is now. No, it isn't the "strongest" of schedules but all you can do is your best and this appears to be the best you guys can do, for now, to steadily improve your program's schedule. Excited to see how it works out for the Raiders! 

[PatriotPat2014]

On 2/4/2025 at 1:11 PM, adambetz said:

Love how teams like Sheridan and South Adams will play anyone anywhere.

I saw Sheridan is now playing Greenwood Christian and South Adams is now without a week 1 game? Anyone know what happened? Does anyone from the schools or anyone else have any insight to this? 

[Bears62]

Some 5a schools new non-conference matchups at a quick glance

 

• Crown Point replaces Arizona College Prep with Pike; Good test for both teams
• Merrillville replaces Hobart with Loyola Academy (Illinois); Defending Class 8a Champion, Pirates will have their hands full
• Snider and Warsaw set to face off Week 1 
• Decatur Central faces Avon as opposed to Columbus North (probably not an upgrade)
• East Central drops Moeller for Lawrence North; Should be a good game
• Lafayette Jeff drops Avon and will face Bishop Chatard Week 1; Heard Jeff is bringing back a lot, very interesting matchup

Edited March 31, 2025 by Bears62

[HoopsCoach]

On 2/14/2025 at 9:36 PM, foxbat said:

Right now, being the new kid to 6A and switching conferences, they are going to have some struggles getting some of the other 6As to pull them in for, at least, a home-and-home for a few years, much less a regular seasonal schedule-mate.  I'm hoping that they will be able to gain some foundation as they get past these transitions and become more desirable as an opponent for other 6As and upper 5As.  Just about a decade ago, this was a program that posted three 0-10 seasons in a row and hadn't seen a winning season since 1996 until Coach Peeples showed up in 2014, so getting on track is certainly doable.

The ping pong balls are going to be problematic for Harrison in the near future as they have former-nemesis Westfield in Sectional 3 along with really large school, Carmel.

Coach Peebles did a really nice job at Harrison. I don’t think you can overlook the schedule difference between when the Raiders were in the Hoosier Crossroads under the previous coach and the schedule when he coached Harrison in the North Central Conference.  The first year with Coach Peebles was also their first year in the NCC, which was definitely a competitive level change from the HCC.  Don’t take that as a criticism of Coach Peebles.  The changes to Harrison’s schedule starting next year probably put the difficulty way above playing in the NCC and a little below the HCC.  That is probably right around where Harrison should be.  It will be tough for the new coach to maintain the number of wins they’ve had in recent years, but it may prepare them a little more for a 6A sectional.  Honestly, I don’t think it matters who they play in the regular season.  They don’t have the Jimmy’s and Joe’s to hang with Westfield, Carmel, and Zionsville.

It’s a stretch in my opinion to call the Sagamore a conference with only 4 schools, especially since Harrison and Danville (probably the 2 best teams) don’t even play.

[foxbat]

23 minutes ago, HoopsCoach said:

Coach Peebles did a really nice job at Harrison. I don’t think you can overlook the schedule difference between when the Raiders were in the Hoosier Crossroads under the previous coach and the schedule when he coached Harrison in the North Central Conference.  The first year with Coach Peebles was also their first year in the NCC, which was definitely a competitive level change from the HCC.  Don’t take that as a criticism of Coach Peebles.  The changes to Harrison’s schedule starting next year probably put the difficulty way above playing in the NCC and a little below the HCC.  That is probably right around where Harrison should be.  It will be tough for the new coach to maintain the number of wins they’ve had in recent years, but it may prepare them a little more for a 6A sectional.  Honestly, I don’t think it matters who they play in the regular season.  They don’t have the Jimmy’s and Joe’s to hang with Westfield, Carmel, and Zionsville.

It’s a stretch in my opinion to call the Sagamore a conference with only 4 schools, especially since Harrison and Danville (probably the 2 best teams) don’t even play.

I was watching the Harrison undercards when my son played in those teams from his freshman year on.  My son's freshman year, 2020, the freshman squad played Westfield tight, losing 28-21, while the varsity fell 34-10 that year.  The JV, the next season, 2021, lost to Westfield on a last-minute 40+ field goal, 23-22, while varsity lost 33-11.  I was really looking forward to that JV game in 2022 to see if there was a continued trending for the undercard vs. Westfield, but that was the year that Westfield dropped Harrison from their schedule, so connecting the dots was not to be seen.  The undercards did see Harrison reaching out to the Catholic schools more recently and adding Chatard, Roncalli, and Brebeuf.  It looks like that will potentially continue into the varsity schedule too.

[Starfire Alum]

On 3/26/2025 at 1:13 PM, PatriotPat2014 said:

I saw Sheridan is now playing Greenwood Christian and South Adams is now without a week 1 game? Anyone know what happened? Does anyone from the schools or anyone else have any insight to this? 

Sheridan had a 2-year deal with South Adams and Sheridan's AD backed out of her contract. Sheridan said they wanted to guarantee a win for the first year head coach. 

[temptation]

On 3/31/2025 at 6:03 PM, Bears62 said:

Some 5a schools new non-conference matchups at a quick glance

 

• Crown Point replaces Arizona College Prep with Pike; Good test for both teams
• Merrillville replaces Hobart with Loyola Academy (Illinois); Defending Class 8a Champion, Pirates will have their hands full
• Snider and Warsaw set to face off Week 1 
• Decatur Central faces Avon as opposed to Columbus North (probably not an upgrade)
• East Central drops Moeller for Lawrence North; Should be a good game
• Lafayette Jeff drops Avon and will face Bishop Chatard Week 1; Heard Jeff is bringing back a lot, very interesting matchup

Avon is building a monster…just not reflected in the win/loss column yet.

LN will destroy East Central if their trajectory continues like I expect it to.