Guest DT Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 1 hour ago, TrojanDad said: All I am asking is that you either provide specific examples in which the offering of PWO's have absolutely been the cause of decay in small college football, or simply admit your voice is nothing more than an opinion. You also put words in JustRules mouth....he did not correlate Allen's actions with the decline of small college football. He stated the the history of D3 football in the state has been mediocre as compared to some other states especially given their performance in the playoffs. That fact is historical and well before Allen's arrival at Indiana. What is recent fact is the strength of NAIA football in this state, and the growth of the University of Indianapolis in the D2 ranks. Further, we can name walk-ons that have earned scholarships at the D1 level. You have zero proof in the demise of small college Indiana football.....NONE! What you do have is a voice....and nothing more. Either name the 20 or 30 cases of demise or simply understand your credibility in this particular case is in question. Is it not fair to assume that as Allen expands his PWO program, there will likely be a smaller pool of potential players at the lower levels? Does not simple logic peak in this case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldschoolFB Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 13 hours ago, southend said: Nothing personal Oldschool. Just years of observing. PWO is a detriment. According to 247, Indiana has 10 players who have agreed to accept the PWO opportunity. 1 is a kicker, 1 is a LS. That means 8 are position players. 10 a year is a good number. Even if they took a few more, it would be good as 2 are special teams and if you use the average % that scholarship classes lose players over 4 years, that number of PWO position players is likely 6 at best. Coach Allen is smart to offer PWO to players he has seen on film and knows what kind of player they are and extend his connection to more Indiana HS’s. The other way to reach 125 man full capacity roster is take walkons who just show up Frosh year and you get to see for a day or 2. NAIA programs who can basically offer an unlimited number of players and have grant money to offer that pays for most if not all of their school is a much bigger detriment to the small schools you are bent out of shape about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gipper Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 My two cents: Allen & IU will be fine with their cupcake non-conference schedule in search of a lower tier bowl game. Smaller schools such as Hanover, Marian, and Wabash will also have exciting games on their respective campuses every autumn. San Dimas High School football rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gipper Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 36 minutes ago, TrojanDad said: Statistically speaking.....no. First, walkons are hardly anything new at IU, Purdue, Ball State, etc. 8 D3 teams, 1 D2 team, and 3 NAIA schools in the state. If Allen takes 10 walk-ons, that is less than 1 per team, ASSUMING those kids were all staying in the state of Indiana to play ball at those levels. (and that is one big assumption) One could contend that you eliminate Rose, as they recruit across the country looking for a certain type of student....academic and STEM based. 2 of the 3 NAIA schools are powerhouses and UIndy and improved their program significantly over the past few years. BTW, Purdue also offers walkon opportunities...... J. J. Watt was at one time a walk-on. As was Clay Matthews, Santana Moss, and Jordy Nelson... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 43 minutes ago, Gipper said: J. J. Watt was at one time a walk-on. As was Clay Matthews, Santana Moss, and Jordy Nelson... How dare they! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gipper Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 6 minutes ago, Robert said: How dare they! My thoughts exactly. What has Watt ever done? Nelson made the Packer HOF and is LOVED in Wisconsin, and who the hell is Santana Moss? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimsonace1 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 On 2/25/2020 at 9:04 AM, TrojanDad said: I had to look that one up...pretty interesting. Nice representation of Big 10 schools to the public ivy's list. Surprised not to see Purdue and Northwestern. Northwestern isn't a public school, therefore it cannot be a "public" ivy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimsonace1 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 Indiana small-college football is doing pretty well even though IU, PU and BSU all receive walk-ons. Marian & St. Francis are NAIA national powerhouses and IWU's program is growing, mostly with Indiana kids. Wabash is often in the running for the NCAC title & is often in the D3 Top 25. DePauw has been at that level in the past and I anticipate will be there again. Franklin has turned itself into a national player at the D3 level under Mike Leonard's tutelage (and I expect that to continue with Alan Hensell, who has hit the ground running this winter at FC). UIndy is often in the D2 national tournament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimsonace1 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 Every student's choice and decision is different. I'm sure nobody's going "darn, I really want to go to a large school and have an opportunity to practice every day on a Big Ten program and suit up every Saturday for a Big Ten school. I may not play a lot, but I want to give myself an opportunity at a world-class education at a school that has my major, but some noisy throw-crap-against-the-wall-and-see-what-bad-opinions-stick message board troll thinks I'm hurting Marian's program by doing so, so I had better not go to IU." Thinking about walk-ons, understand that in-state tuition at IU, PU & BSU is significantly less than in-state tuition at most smaller (private) colleges, EVEN WITH financial aid. I'm a big supporter of small-college football, but also an IU alum. Success at all is not mutually exclusive. IU bringing in a few more PWOs *does not* have that much of a ripple effect on the D2/D3/NAIA schools in-state, as some of those would likely walk on at FCS Indiana State (which has 60 scholarships, not 85 as a D1 school would) or Butler (non-scholarship, but more flexibile with financial aid than a D3). St. Francis & Marian are *often* in the NAIA title game. UIndy has made runs in the D2 tourney. Franklin was in the final eight of the NCAA tourney a decade or so ago and has made a couple of trips to the final 16. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muda69 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 9 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said: Every student's choice and decision is different. I'm sure nobody's going "darn, I really want to go to a large school and have an opportunity to practice every day on a Big Ten program and suit up every Saturday for a Big Ten school. I may not play a lot, but I want to give myself an opportunity at a world-class education at a school that has my major, but some noisy throw-crap-against-the-wall-and-see-what-bad-opinions-stick message board troll thinks I'm hurting Marian's program by doing so, so I had better not go to IU." Thinking about walk-ons, understand that in-state tuition at IU, PU & BSU is significantly less than in-state tuition at most smaller (private) colleges, EVEN WITH financial aid. I'm a big supporter of small-college football, but also an IU alum. Success at all is not mutually exclusive. IU bringing in a few more PWOs *does not* have that much of a ripple effect on the D2/D3/NAIA schools in-state, as some of those would likely walk on at FCS Indiana State (which has 60 scholarships, not 85 as a D1 school would) or Butler (non-scholarship, but more flexibile with financial aid than a D3). St. Francis & Marian are *often* in the NAIA title game. UIndy has made runs in the D2 tourney. Franklin was in the final eight of the NCAA tourney a decade or so ago and has made a couple of trips to the final 16. Troll? Really? So an individual who has contrary opinions to the status quo is automatically labeled by you as a "message board troll". Got it. I'm glad I don't live in your world of group-think. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustRules Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 (edited) 18 hours ago, TrojanDad said: You also put words in JustRules mouth....he did not correlate Allen's actions with the decline of small college football. He stated the the history of D3 football in the state has been mediocre as compared to some other states especially given their performance in the playoffs. That fact is historical and well before Allen's arrival at Indiana. You are correct. Thank you! I don't feel PWOs at the B1G schools will have a major impact on the overall quality of teams at the small college level (BSU down to D3). 1 hour ago, crimsonace1 said: Indiana small-college football is doing pretty well even though IU, PU and BSU all receive walk-ons. Marian & St. Francis are NAIA national powerhouses and IWU's program is growing, mostly with Indiana kids. Wabash is often in the running for the NCAC title & is often in the D3 Top 25. DePauw has been at that level in the past and I anticipate will be there again. Franklin has turned itself into a national player at the D3 level under Mike Leonard's tutelage (and I expect that to continue with Alan Hensell, who has hit the ground running this winter at FC). UIndy is often in the D2 national tournament. Taylor is also a good NAIA team playing in a very tough conference. They would compete for conference championships if they played in the HCAC. I put Rose and Hanover with Franklin in recent strength in the HCAC. I also expect IWU to compete with Marian and St. Francis at the top of NAIA in the next couple years. To assume this has a significant impact assumes every player is objectively rated 1 to 100. IU and Purdue get the top 20, Ball State gets the next 10, ISU gets 31-40, UIndy gets 41-50, and D3/NAIA fights for the other 50. If IU and Purdue then take the 10 that would have gone to Ball State and Ball State takes the 10 that would have gone to ISU, etc. but that's not how this works. The ratings are subjective. It's possible BSU picks up a kid that had interest from IU but is better than one of the PWO that Ball State initially wanted. In this hypothetical it's possible BSU ended up with a better player than the IU PWO. If IU and Purdue had 60 PWOs each then absolutely it would have an impact. But that's not the case. This is nothing more than someone trying to generate discussion and debate on an internet forum with no actual basis in fact. It's not a ridiculous assumption for discussion, but ultimately I don't feel it creates any rift with the other schools than any other recruiting battles. Edited February 27, 2020 by JustRules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gipper Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 1 hour ago, crimsonace1 said: Northwestern isn't a public school, therefore it cannot be a "public" ivy. they'll be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GV5 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 Still do not understand why everyone continues to talk about this topic! 1. I promise IU (12)and Purdue (9) ranked big 10 recruiting did not talk these PWO'S into leaving scolarships. These young men made these choices for their future! 2. It is not affecting the fcs,d2 and naia schools. These big ten schools are barley pulling in talent that is netter than those of the smaller schools.i know of one naia school this year alone that has kids coming in from 7 states including florida and California. Again let these young men enjoy their time in college. Some may continue to follow their dream and some may not. They also may decide to pursue only their education. Also some may decide to transfer to one of the smaller schools. Hope all these student athletes nothing but the best! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southend Posted February 28, 2020 Author Share Posted February 28, 2020 On 2/26/2020 at 8:35 PM, OldschoolFB said: Coach Allen is smart to offer PWO to players he has seen on film and knows what kind of player they are and extend his connection to more Indiana HS's Do you think all of these guys would go to Indiana if they weren't offered PWO? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southend Posted February 29, 2020 Author Share Posted February 29, 2020 On 2/27/2020 at 4:02 PM, GV5 said: Again let these young men enjoy their time in college. Some may continue to follow their dream and some may not. They also may decide to pursue only their education. Also some may decide to transfer to one of the smalle You don't get it, this has nothing to do with not allowing these athletes to follow their dreams or enjoy their time in college. It 's about a big time coach luring theses guys with a status that guarantees nothing. Taking them away from possibly enrolling at ISU, Ball State and all the other smaller schools here in the state. If Allen sees so much in these young men, then pony up with the guarantee money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southend Posted February 29, 2020 Author Share Posted February 29, 2020 On 2/27/2020 at 11:14 AM, crimsonace1 said: "I'm sure nobody's going "darn so I better not go to IU" I have no qualms with anyone going to IU. On 2/27/2020 at 11:14 AM, crimsonace1 said: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GV5 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 5 hours ago, southend said: You don't get it, this has nothing to do with not allowing these athletes to follow their dreams or enjoy their time in college. It 's about a big time coach luring theses guys with a status that guarantees nothing. Taking them away from possibly enrolling at ISU, Ball State and all the other smaller schools here in the state. If Allen sees so much in these young men, then pony up with the guarantee money. If he saw so much in them he would have offered them a scholarship! Oh by the way Allen is not a big time Coach! He isn't even upper echelon in the big 10 let alone the ncaa fbs. He is an ok coach who had a mediocre rise due to unforeseen reasons. He is starting to earn his way but has a way to go.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobref Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 10 hours ago, GV5 said: If he saw so much in them he would have offered them a scholarship! You realize there are a finite number of scholarships, right? Allen has one job, and that is to win games for IU. If he thinks expanding his PWO program will help, then he absolutely should do it. He has no obligation whatsoever to “Indiana small college football.” 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldschoolFB Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 16 hours ago, southend said: Do you think all of these guys would go to Indiana if they weren't offered PWO? Your point(lack thereof) of the PWO’s weakening the smaller schools is silly. You don’t have anything to back it up other than you wish Allen wouldn’t do it. As I mentioned, the NAIA unlimited offers hurts the schools you are worried about much more than the extra 3-4 PWO’s per season. Would these extra PWO’s go to Indiana without it? For football? Obviously not. For school alone? Some of them would likely would Do You really think every one of the PWO’s would play football at the D2 or lower level if not offered the PWO? Small school football isn’t for everyone. I personally loved it when I was in school but to play in front of less than 1000 many games is a tough sell for some kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southend Posted February 29, 2020 Author Share Posted February 29, 2020 2 hours ago, OldschoolFB said: Would these extra PWO’s go to Indiana without it? For football? Obviously not Is this a fact? 2 hours ago, OldschoolFB said: Do You really think every one of the PWO’s would play football at the D2 or lower level if not offered the PWO? I think most of them would play at a smaller school, including,but not limited too, Ball St. and Indiana St. Not necessarily Dll or lower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southend Posted February 29, 2020 Author Share Posted February 29, 2020 13 hours ago, GV5 said: Oh by the way Allen is not a big time Coach! He isn't even upper echelon in the big 10 let alone the ncaa fbs. He is an ok coach who had a mediocre rise due to unforeseen reasons. You win, LoL.! I'm having a hard time containing myself here.LoL! HA,HA...... Don't tell Nowlin his team got kicked by a mediocre, at best. coach, LoL . my goodness what a laugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldschoolFB Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 9 hours ago, southend said: Is this a fact? I think most of them would play at a smaller school, including,but not limited too, Ball St. and Indiana St. Not necessarily Dll or lower. You are now arguing for the sake of. Your Entire argument is based on kids are only going to Indiana because they have a PWO and this is hurting small schools. And now you ask me how do I know they won’t play football at Indiana without a PWO. Well if they decided they still wanted to tryout when they arrived at Indiana in the fall, they obviously would not be playing at the smaller schools. Therefore Coach Allen is not at fault for the sudden catastrophic decline in Indiana Small College football. . CONGRATULATIONS!!! You’ve just won the argument..... with yourself. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southend Posted March 1, 2020 Author Share Posted March 1, 2020 17 hours ago, TrojanDad said: Why do you think it is an ounce of your business what any young man and their family thinks is best for them? Why must they prescribe to your line of thought? You have invested nothing in them. I have not once in this thread ever stated it was my business where these athletes attend school. And I will state it again. So now what’s your point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southend Posted March 1, 2020 Author Share Posted March 1, 2020 12 hours ago, OldschoolFB said: You are now arguing for the sake of. Your Entire argument is based on kids are only going to Indiana because they have a PWO and this is hurting small schools. And now you ask me how do I know they won’t play football at Indiana without a PWO. Well if they decided they still wanted to tryout when they arrived at Indiana in the fall, they obviously would not be playing at the smaller schools. Therefore Coach Allen is not at fault for the sudden catastrophic decline in Indiana Small College football. . CONGRATULATIONS!!! You’ve just won the argument..... with yourself. Ok, what ever he said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southend Posted March 1, 2020 Author Share Posted March 1, 2020 On 2/29/2020 at 11:01 AM, Bobref said: You realize there are a finite number of scholarships, right? Allen has one job, and that is to win games for IU. If he thinks expanding his PWO program will help, then he absolutely should do it. He has no obligation whatsoever to “Indiana small college football.” Sure, scholarship caps. Point taken, PWO’s help persuade athletes from going to less fortunate schools, including but not limited to the smaller Dl schools. Completely disagreed, big time coaches have an obligation to the health of football over all. Including small colleges and schools , not just the upper echelon, elite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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