IHSAA 8 Man Football Proposal

[JustRules]

1 hour ago, Fan90 said:

Per NFHS rules..8 man modifications...so yes, a lineman COULD go out for a pass..

Not quite. It only says the ends are eligible which is true of 11-man football. What they are saying is the end can be #56 and still be eligible. That's not true in 11-man.

As for the big uglies losing opportunities, from my experience there are players in 1A/2A playing OL who are smaller than skill players at larger schools. 

[wabashalwaysfights]

3 minutes ago, JustRules said:

Not quite. It only says the ends are eligible which is true of 11-man football. What they are saying is the end can be #56 and still be eligible. That's not true in 11-man.

As for the big uglies losing opportunities, from my experience there are players in 1A/2A playing OL who are smaller than skill players at larger schools. 

[Robert]

9 hours ago, Muda69 said:

*cough* soccer *cough*

The bane of small school football programs almost everywhere.

Which is why in the aforementioned list I don't see a small school like Rossville ever having football, 8-man or otherwise.  Their existing soccer program is enough for that community, a place where basketball and to a lesser extent, baseball, is king and always will be.

 

An Attica-Seeger co-op 11-man football team would be a mighty beast.  Just saying..........................

 

I do wish soccer was a spring sport.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Robert

[Muda69]

1 hour ago, Robert said:

I do wish soccer was a spring sport.

Why?  So they would compete against T&F, Baseball, Softball, Boy's Golf, and Girl's Tennis and not all powerful tackle football?

 

[Muda69]

3 hours ago, JustRules said:

As for the big uglies losing opportunities, from my experience there are players in 1A/2A playing OL who are smaller than skill players at larger schools. 

I know of a "4A" school where the starting guards are often no bigger than 5'10", 180lbs.  The center and tackles are often not much larger.

[Fan90]

4 hours ago, JustRules said:

Not quite. It only says the ends are eligible which is true of 11-man football. What they are saying is the end can be #56 and still be eligible. That's not true in 11-man.

As for the big uglies losing opportunities, from my experience there are players in 1A/2A playing OL who are smaller than skill players at larger schools. 

Thank you for that clarification...so, that means that with 8 man only having 3 O-Linemen, in certain formations, they would be eligible, regardless of the number they are wearing.  So, in 8 man, as an o-lineman, I am begging my coach to create a formation that allows me to be eligible! I can hear my lineman now.."please coach, let me go out for a pass, Pleeease!"

[JustRules]

2 hours ago, Muda69 said:

I know of a "4A" school where the starting guards are often no bigger than 5'10", 180lbs.  The center and tackles are often not much larger.

This is true. Occasionally you'll even see that at 6A schools. I remember working a Carmel game and the starting center couldn't have been much more than 5'8" and 200 lb.

1 hour ago, Fan90 said:

Thank you for that clarification...so, that means that with 8 man only having 3 O-Linemen, in certain formations, they would be eligible, regardless of the number they are wearing.  So, in 8 man, as an o-lineman, I am begging my coach to create a formation that allows me to be eligible! I can hear my lineman now.."please coach, let me go out for a pass, Pleeease!"

That's what it says. It's not unusual for 11-man teams to line up in a "tackle over" formation. They will put two eligible numbers on the same side of the line (usually a TE covered by a WR. This leaves a T on the back side with no eligible receiver outside of him. He's eligible by position but not by number. In 8-man that person is now eligible. If the TE lines up on the side now he's no longer an end and isn't eligible.

[DanteEstonia]

3 hours ago, Fan90 said:

I can hear my lineman now.."please coach, let me go out for a pass, Pleeease!"

If you're wearing the right numbers...

[Robert]

14 hours ago, Muda69 said:

Why?  So they would compete against T&F, Baseball, Softball, Boy's Golf, and Girl's Tennis and not all powerful tackle football?

 

Because I'm a fan and attend both.  I see guys at some schools allowed to play both and at some schools not allowed to play both.  I, sometimes, see fields that get chopped up from overuse.  You should know that I teach and I support as many students as I can, in all sports.  

[DanteEstonia]

16 hours ago, Muda69 said:

I know of a "4A" school where the starting guards are often no bigger than 5'10", 180lbs. 

If he's got a strong work ethic, a good coach can work wonders with that kid. 

[wabashalwaysfights]

Some of the best offensive linemen I've played against and coached weren't much bigger than that, regardless of class.

[Fan90]

13 hours ago, DanteEstonia said:

If you're wearing the right numbers...

Not in 8 man...jersey numbers do not matter foe pass eligibility

[wabashalwaysfights]

 

14 hours ago, DanteEstonia said:

If you're wearing the right numbers...

 

17 minutes ago, Fan90 said:

Not in 8 man...jersey numbers do not matter foe pass eligibility

So clearly, without knowing @Fan90's experience with 8 man, is a slight difference in rules. Perhaps linked to state/region?

[Fan90]

My experience is "0".  I have just been reading and watching videos.  I came across the NFHS rules..and think rule 7 is unique

 

[JQWL]

45 minutes ago, Fan90 said:

My experience is "0".  I have just been reading and watching videos.  I came across the NFHS rules..and think rule 7 is unique

 

Is it the 12 yards from the ball portion you find unique?

[Fan90]

No...it is Rule 7 part C....each player (REGARDLESS OF JERSEY NUMBER" is pass eligible if aligned as end man on LOS.

[wabashalwaysfights]

14 hours ago, Fan90 said:

No...it is Rule 7 part C....each player (REGARDLESS OF JERSEY NUMBER" is pass eligible if aligned as end man on LOS.

I see that now... every lineman's dream... except for us centers, we're pretty much out of luck unless you have some wacky unbalanced stuff floating out there.

[Muda69]

On 7/11/2020 at 9:36 AM, Robert said:

Because I'm a fan and attend both.  I see guys at some schools allowed to play both and at some schools not allowed to play both.  I, sometimes, see fields that get chopped up from overuse.

What about the guy who wants to play football and tennis?  Cross county?  Marching Band?

About the only crossover I have seen with playing both football and soccer is the place kicker.  Makes sense.

As for the field, when my child played high school soccer the only fields we encountered where both football and soccer were played were artificial turf fields,  so overuse was not an issue.   The schools with natural grass had separate football and soccer fields.

 

 

 

[JQWL]

I apologize for my ignorance in the matter but how do proposals work? Who has to approve and if it is approved, then what?

[wabashalwaysfights]

12 hours ago, JQWL said:

I apologize for my ignorance in the matter but how do proposals work? Who has to approve and if it is approved, then what?

I'm not entirely sure, but this is a great question. May be best answered by looking at what the last sport the IHSAA added.

[Robert]

On 7/12/2020 at 12:23 PM, Muda69 said:

What about the guy who wants to play football and tennis?  Cross county?  Marching Band?

About the only crossover I have seen with playing both football and soccer is the place kicker.  Makes sense.

As for the field, when my child played high school soccer the only fields we encountered where both football and soccer were played were artificial turf fields,  so overuse was not an issue.   The schools with natural grass had separate football and soccer fields.

 

 

 

I've seen different, but then I watch traditionally soccer/football rich programs around here.  Also, the tide is turning around here to more artificial surfaces and having two surfaces for different sports, but not always.  I've seen a lot of FB and Marching Band.  I've seen the coaches I know bend over backwards to help young men and young women to play whatever they'd like.  I simply threw a wish out there, but you can go contrarian if you'd like. 

[gahoosierfan]

How about how long does it normally take the IHSAA to evaluate proposals like this?

[Bobref]

1 hour ago, gahoosierfan said:

How about how long does it normally take the IHSAA to evaluate proposals like this?

My guess is they’re somewhat preoccupied at the moment. So, I wouldn’t hold my breath.

[foxbat]

On 7/10/2020 at 8:48 PM, Fan90 said:

Thank you for that clarification...so, that means that with 8 man only having 3 O-Linemen, in certain formations, they would be eligible, regardless of the number they are wearing.  So, in 8 man, as an o-lineman, I am begging my coach to create a formation that allows me to be eligible! I can hear my lineman now.."please coach, let me go out for a pass, Pleeease!"

Not any different that 11-man youth ball.  Every season we get some kid who plays the line that once he learns about the idea of being "uncovered" swears that if we have the end step back before the snap, he'll lumber down the field and sneak behind the corner to make the catch.  😀

[Bonecrusher]

On 7/10/2020 at 6:49 AM, wabashalwaysfights said:

I would say this is a fair point.  Ohio is a state known for it's high school football.  Let's look back at the chart @gahoosierfan posted and focus on some other states that are known for their football.  

How many 8 man teams does...

California have?

108

Florida have?

15

Georgia have?

21

Michigan have?

64

Mississippi have?

21

Nebraska have?

113

Texas have?

0

Now let's remember what @DT said early on in this conversation:

So yes, several of those states that are "known for football" have a large rural population, yet 8-man is allowed to exist, and in some cases thrive.  But, you know, these are states who have "generally unsophisticated sports fan(s)."

But wait, you say, Texas has zero 8-man teams and they are the gold standard for rabidness over high school football.  You would be correct.  They have an alternative though....

Let's look at how many 6-man teams those same states have...

California

0

Florida

32

Georgia

0

Michigan

0

Mississippi

0

Nebraska

25

Texas

234

If 8-man is a "neanderthal version of the regular game," I would hate to know what the 6-man version would be.  Yet the 6-man game is incredibly prominent in football rabid Texas.  But sure, alternatives to the 11 man game like 8 and 6 man football are for us "neanderthals."  Why don't you leave this possibility to those of us who are not "modern, sophisticated and educated Hoosiers" and pay attention to more pressing issues for you more intellectual types.

 

P.S.: As a Wabash College graduate, I take offense to the term "neanderthal."  If you must insult my intelligence, please use the term "caveman."

Many here have described 6-man as being like "basketball on a football field".   Scores, especially the winning team's in mis-matched games, gets crazy high. There is a 45-point mercy rule that gets used a fair bit.  Think of the St Louis Rams "greatest show on turf"-style offense, and you have a high school version of that in the 6-man game if your offense is clicking on all cylinders.  Put two well matched 6-man teams together, it's going to be a very fun and interesting evening if you like huge offensive numbers.  Good offenses score basically every time they get the ball.  Some teams play better D than others, but it's more often than not an offensive showdown.  Oh, and the field is slightly smaller.

I'm not against 6-man.  Better that than nothing.  If the kids want to play, I say more power to them.  There is blocking, tackling, running, passing just like 11-man, but as told to me by a 6-man parent "it ain't quite the same game".  Doesn't mean it's inferior, just different.  Those kids train just as hard and long as 11-man players and are asked to do just as much.

I would rather see schools playing 8-man or co-oping than not playing at all.