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Should something be done to fix 6A?


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2 minutes ago, temptation said:


So 16 making a class makes you feel uncomfortable but giving 1/3 of a 24 team field a bye based on a random method doesn’t?

Interesting.

You don’t have to give 1/3 a bye. Get creative. If you’re going to make a radical change like creating a separate class to address this so-called problem, you don’t need to lock yourself into the old sectional lineup mentality.

But my real issue is we’re making radical changes to address what, 16 teams (the 16 smallest in a 32 team 6A)? Silly to let the tail wag the dog. 

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9 minutes ago, Bobref said:

You don’t have to give 1/3 a bye. Get creative. If you’re going to make a radical change like creating a separate class to address this so-called problem, you don’t need to lock yourself into the old sectional lineup mentality.

But my real issue is we’re making radical changes to address what, 16 teams (the 16 smallest in a 32 team 6A)? Silly to let the tail wag the dog. 

Eh, I think asking a school of 2400 to play against a school of 5200 is dangerous.  
 

That’s an issue.

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1 hour ago, temptation said:

I like it but with 24 you have to determine scenarios for byes.  How would you do that?

Why not 16?

10 game regular season , bye week and a 4 week tournament.  That way they still play on TG weekend with the other 5 classes

In my view, the new "mega school" moniker applies to schools with 3000 plus enrollment.  Not all of the Top 24 will be at 3000 but they are approaching that number and getting closer every year.  

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Here is your Top 24, with consolidated Elkhart and SF Cathedral included :

1112 Carmel High School 1359 1338 1267 1322 5286 2221 Ben Davis High School 1263 1075 1100 1061 4499 3433 Warren Central High School 961 962 960 938 3821 4344 North Central (Indpls.) High School 973 939 872 943 3727 5 7 9 14 Fishers High School 950 887 862 810 3509 6555 Penn High School 840 856 782 860 3338 7866 Lake Central High School 827 850 795 844 3316 8677 Pike High School 909 825 792 769 3295 9988 Hamilton Southeastern HS 827 803 840 803 3273 10 10 10 12 Avon High School 838 770 724 763 3095 11 11 11 10 Noblesville High School 805 744 750 702 3001 12 12 12 11 Crown Point High School 735 704 697 719 2855 13 14 16 18 Brownsburg High School 726 676 693 715 2810 14 13 13 13 Franklin Central High School 759 719 700 626 2804 15 33 44 16 Indpls. Arsenal Technical High School 614 716 696 582 2608 16 17 19 20 Lawrence North High School 702 607 632 655 2596 17 16 15 17 Center Grove High School 648 640 630 603 2521 18 18 20 23 Perry Meridian High School 626 619 605 595 2445 19 15 14 9 Portage High School 620 586 621 609 2436 20 19 18 21 Homestead Senior High School 678 580 586 580 2424 21 21 24 28 Carroll (F.W.) High School 597 652 598 565 2412 22 25 34 40 Westfield High School 668 573 563 530 2334  Elkhart High School    Cathedral High School

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24 minutes ago, DT said:

Here is your Top 24, with consolidated Elkhart and SF Cathedral included :

1112 Carmel High School 1359 1338 1267 1322 5286 2221 Ben Davis High School 1263 1075 1100 1061 4499 3433 Warren Central High School 961 962 960 938 3821 4344 North Central (Indpls.) High School 973 939 872 943 3727 5 7 9 14 Fishers High School 950 887 862 810 3509 6555 Penn High School 840 856 782 860 3338 7866 Lake Central High School 827 850 795 844 3316 8677 Pike High School 909 825 792 769 3295 9988 Hamilton Southeastern HS 827 803 840 803 3273 10 10 10 12 Avon High School 838 770 724 763 3095 11 11 11 10 Noblesville High School 805 744 750 702 3001 12 12 12 11 Crown Point High School 735 704 697 719 2855 13 14 16 18 Brownsburg High School 726 676 693 715 2810 14 13 13 13 Franklin Central High School 759 719 700 626 2804 15 33 44 16 Indpls. Arsenal Technical High School 614 716 696 582 2608 16 17 19 20 Lawrence North High School 702 607 632 655 2596 17 16 15 17 Center Grove High School 648 640 630 603 2521 18 18 20 23 Perry Meridian High School 626 619 605 595 2445 19 15 14 9 Portage High School 620 586 621 609 2436 20 19 18 21 Homestead Senior High School 678 580 586 580 2424 21 21 24 28 Carroll (F.W.) High School 597 652 598 565 2412 22 25 34 40 Westfield High School 668 573 563 530 2334  Elkhart High School    Cathedral High School

I would go with an East - West bracket to better balance the preponderence of Indy schools in the class :

 

Northwest :  LC/POR/CP/BB/PIKE/NC

Southwest : AV/BD/TECH/CG/PM/FC

NW vs SW semistate

Northeast : PENN/ELK/HOME/CARR/WF/CAR

Southeast : CATH/LN/WC/FISH/HSE/NOB

Northeast vs Southeast semistate

Edited by DT
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1 hour ago, temptation said:

Eh, I think asking a school of 2400 to play against a school of 5200 is dangerous.  

Apparently the educators at, for example, Lawrence Central, who are charged with the responsibility of guarding the safety of their students, don’t feel the same way. They petitioned in 2013 to join the conference where they play that 5200 student school every year.

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24 seeme like a natural break as there are very few schools who appear ready to grow into the new Top 24 enrollment cutoff.  If cathedral were to be relegated back to 5A, Lawrence Central would likley move up.  Southport and Merrillville , the next two in line , are not seeing enrollment growth and are actually both contracting enrollment.  Warsaw is probably 10 years away from meeting the cutoff.

I really like what this new set up does for 5A.  It puts the Duneland Conference right back into the state title hunt with a conference now more weighted with 5A schools.  Columbus North and Laf Jeff become title contenders.  Jeffersonville, Northrup, Harrison , Castle and Whiteland and now firmly in the hunt.  Win - Win for both classes

https://www.ihsaa.org/Portals/0/ihsaa/documents/quick resources/Enrollments & Classifications/Enrollments 19202021.pdf

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25 minutes ago, Bobref said:

It’s been happening for years. Yet, we’ve somehow managed to survive.

Can you provide evidence/data that we’ve “survived?”

Are you in those locker rooms?

Look, when a team can roll fresh bodies in and out of a contest and not be forced to play starters/those in the two deep on special teams, it’s a huge advantage.

Just because we have “survived” thus far doesn’t mean we should wait for an incident to happen before addressing potential changes.

4 minutes ago, Bobref said:

Apparently the educators at, for example, Lawrence Central, who are charged with the responsibility of guarding the safety of their students, don’t feel the same way. They petitioned in 2013 to join the conference where they play that 5200 student school every year.

Color me surprised.

Edited by temptation
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1 hour ago, temptation said:

Eh, I think asking a school of 2400 to play against a school of 5200 is dangerous.  
 

That’s an issue.

Unless you are willing to ask Carmel and BD to secede from the IHSAA, please drop this preposterous notion.  Two of the smaller 6A schools played for the state championship this past season.  They both could very well wind up back there again this year.  

Carmel and BD are good for Indiana high school football.  They set the bar very high and push schools like Center Grove and Westfield to increase their investments in the sport.  

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1 minute ago, DT said:

Unless you are willing to ask Carmel and BD to secede from the IHSAA, please drop this preposterous notion.  Two of the smaller 6A schools played for the state championship this past season.  They both could very well wind up back there again this year.  

Carmel and BD are good for Indiana high school football.  They set the bar very high and push schools like Center Grove and Westfield to increase their investments in the sport.  

You know just as well as I do that geography plays a big role in who plays in the state championship in the current format.

Edited by temptation
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Just now, temptation said:

Can you provide evidence/data that we’ve “survived?”

Are you in those locker rooms?

Look, when a team can roll fresh bodies in and out of a contest And not be forced to play starters/those in the two deep on special teams, it’s a huge advantage.

Just because we have “survived” thus far doesn’t mean we should wait for an incident to happen before addressing potential changes.

Maybe the IHSAA should enact a rule that no teams can play one another when the enrollment disparity is greater than [pick a number]. That way those poor kids from Pioneer (enrollment 233) would not have been subjected to the hazards inherent in playing Chesterton (enrollment 2,063) last year. Oh, wait ...

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2 minutes ago, temptation said:

You know just as well as I do that geography plays a big role in who plays in the state championship in the current format.

Correct.  I have proposed a change to the geography to an east-west alignment for 6A only.  

But lets quit using Carmel and its 5200 students as a crutch to base our arguments on.  Its a moot point.  Carmel is what it is.  Its going nowhere.  No MIC school, including the two Terre Hautes, has ever dropped Carmel from their schedule due to excessive physical beatdowns.  

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28 minutes ago, Bobref said:

Maybe the IHSAA should enact a rule that no teams can play one another when the enrollment disparity is greater than [pick a number]. That way those poor kids from Pioneer (enrollment 233) would not have been subjected to the hazards inherent in playing Chesterton (enrollment 2,063) last year. Oh, wait ...

Way to attempt to cite one isolated example to make your point...well done.

You cited an exception.  Not the norm.

6A “powerhouse” CHESTERTON (20 wins in the last 5 years against a Pioneer program (60 wins in that same time frame) that is experiencing success like never before.

We are talking 6A solely here Robert.  Try to keep up.

Edited by temptation
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34 minutes ago, DT said:

 

I would go with an East - West bracket to better balance the preponderence of Indy schools in the class :

 

Northwest :  LC/POR/CP/BB/PIKE/NC

Southwest : AV/BD/TECH/CG/PM/FC

NW vs SW semistate

Northeast : PENN/ELK/HOME/CARR/WF/CAR

Southeast : CATH/LN/WC/FISH/HSE/NOB

Northeast vs Southeast semistate

I get your point.  I'm gonna use a bad word though... seed it.

The problem with seeding at lower levels are two-fold. 1. Geography 2. Conference imbalance.  Those aren't an issue with the 24 schools you mentioned. 

Using some southern Indiana teams I'm familiar with - it would be tough to seed a 8-1 Reitz (SIAC) and 8-1 Jasper (Big 8 ) in 2014. 

In a condensed 6A, there is enough head-to-head to make seeding possible, IMO. 

 

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Just now, oldtimeqb said:

I get your point.  I'm gonna use a bad word though... seed it.

The problem with seeding at lower levels are two-fold. 1. Geography 2. Conference imbalance.  Those aren't an issue with the 24 schools you mentioned. 

Using some southern Indiana teams I'm familiar with - it would be tough to seed a 8-1 Reitz (SIAC) and 8-1 Jasper (Big 8 ) in 2014. 

In a condensed 6A, there is enough head-to-head to make seeding possible, IMO. 

 

But then wouldn’t you have to cave and do it for every class?

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2 minutes ago, temptation said:

Way to attempt to cite one isolated example to make your point...well done.

You cited an exception.  Not the norm.

Sort of like trying to make your case using Carmel, when it’s the largest school in the state by 800 kids. An aberration, as @DTpointed out.  Sauce for the goose ...

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7 minutes ago, Bobref said:

Sort of like trying to make your case using Carmel, when it’s the largest school in the state by 800 kids. An aberration, as @DTpointed out.  Sauce for the goose ...

Well, BD also boasts a 2/1 advantage in numbers over the bottom 6A schools and two of their worst teams in recent memory rolled to sectional/regional titles over Southport, Perry Meridian, and Zionsville (2019).

Probably just superior coaching though, right?

Do I need to cite Penn’s dominance of the last two decades also?

Simply put:  Numbers matter...A LOT

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1 minute ago, temptation said:

Well, BD also boasts a 2/1 advantage in numbers over the bottom 6A schools and two of their worst teams in recent memory rolled to sectional/regional titles over Southport, Perry Meridian, and Zionsville (2019).

Probably just superior coaching though, right?

Now you’re switching arguments in mid-stream, which is somewhat revealing. Are we talking about competitive balance issues, or trying to protect kids from a potentially unsafe situation? Pick one.  

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2 minutes ago, Bobref said:

Now you’re switching arguments in mid-stream, which is somewhat revealing. Are we talking about competitive balance issues, or trying to protect kids from a potentially unsafe situation? Pick one.  

Both statements can be true at the same time Bobby.

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Yes enrollment can be unfair for 6A, but at some point you can't do anything about it. I mean CG competes and beats Carmel and they have half the amount of students. I feel like at a certain point it does not matter. It is never going to be truly 100% fair. Same can go for anything in life. It won't be changed and it shouldn't be changed. 

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1 minute ago, Indiana Fan said:

Yes enrollment can be unfair for 6A, but at some point you can't do anything about it. I mean CG competes and beats Carmel and they have half the amount of students. I feel like at a certain point it does not matter. It is never going to be truly 100% fair. Same can go for anything in life. It won't be changed and it shouldn't be changed. 

The IHSAA has been tweaking the classes since 1973.  We went from 3 to 4 to 5 to 6 classes.  About one change per decade.  We will soon be due for the next change.  

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