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Should something be done to fix 6A?


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11 minutes ago, CoachGallogly said:

Actually it's entirely about those three schools, because if they weren't winning at a high level this thread wouldn't exist. 

I mean sure I guess you’re not wrong? But definitely not the point. You are the one on here who is confused, US31 tried to dumb it down for you but I guess it didn’t work. 

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31 minutes ago, CoachGallogly said:

Investment in high school football is incredibly measurable.  From facility investment (weight room, AV capabilities), parent organizations, head coach salary and daily responsibilities, caliber of head coach, size of assistant coaching staff, funding of assistant coaching staff, caliber of assistant coaches, non conference scheduling, youth program organization and development, weight training courses in the daily school schedule 

All of these are crucial if you are doing all of these things at an elite level, then enrollment is like dumping gas on the fire, but if you are not doing all these things, and doing them well then enrollment is like dumping gas down a drain pipe

As I stated before in a separate thread, Nick Saban could take the reins at Tech and it simply would not matter.

Its a numbers/socioeconomic status issue.

Look no farther than the turnover.

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3 hours ago, DT said:

Imagine a Chesterton vs Jeffersonville or Laf Jeff vs Floyd Central 5a title game

Or northrup vs Columbus North 

Its too depressing to imagine......

1 hour ago, DT said:

Don't you think the columbus North or Law Jeff or Chesterton and Merrillville fans would love to see their kids get a shot at a ring at Lucas Oil? 

So would Rock Creek.

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1 hour ago, Lysander said:

Its too depressing to imagine......

So would Rock Creek.

You take the blue ring for granted  You should be more humble  The Indy CYO TRavelling Football All Stars have rendered you into a permanent state of undeniable hubris.

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6 hours ago, CoachGallogly said:

9/14 state finalists in 6A history have been Carmel, Warren, or BD.   That's roughly 2/3 of the participants are from those 3 schools.  Shrinking 6A to 24 teams, or 16 teams doesn't take BD, Carmel, and Warren down.  Investing in your programs like BD, Carmel, and Warren does.  

Just math checking because I'm bored but there have been 8 6A championships so 16 teams.  Warren, Carmel, and BD account for 9 participants.  CG has been in 4.  Only Penn twice and Westfield have made the finals other than those four teams.

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9 minutes ago, Grover said:

Just math checking because I'm bored but there have been 8 6A championships so 16 teams.  Warren, Carmel, and BD account for 9 participants.  CG has been in 4.  Only Penn twice and Westfield have made the finals other than those four teams.

You're correct I didn't add in this year, as I looked at the historical page.  Their "dominance" is less than I mentioned. 

4 hours ago, temptation said:

As I stated before in a separate thread, Nick Saban could take the reins at Tech and it simply would not matter.

Its a numbers/socioeconomic status issue.

Look no farther than the turnover.

Agreed which is why the list I made included a plethora of factors needed.  You know what also won't give Tech a state title...moving them to 5A, which they still wouldn't do under a scenario that drops the bottom 8 or bottom 16.  

Edited by CoachGallogly
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More classes=more rings= more participation =more money..regular season n  solid programs will still help mold our youth..just now they have higher probability for hardware..we keep adding classes, other states will never know ..I always think the 8a contestants would beat 4a contestants in other states title games without doing any homework... watered down Gatorade still quenches thirst..

Edited by Justasportsfan
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I really get tired of the enrollment argument.  CG played football for 40 years without a whiff of the state finals.  Then we hired Eric Moore who stepped up the entire program.  Not the team -- the program.  The investment in the CG facilities has been largely/partly forced by the varsity's success.  Chicken or the egg, right?  But the bottom line is that CG's enrollment is in the bottom half of 6A.  We could have whined about it but we instead chose to get better.  We joined the MIC when pretty much everybody involved thought we were setting ourselves up to go 0-9 every year.  

You can't control your enrollment but you can control how hard you work.

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30 minutes ago, CoachGallogly said:

You're correct I didn't add in this year, as I looked at the historical page.  Their "dominance" is less than I mentioned. 

Agreed which is why the list I made included a plethora of factors needed.  You know what also won't give Tech a state title...moving them to 5A, which they still wouldn't do under a scenario that drops the bottom 8 or bottom 16.  

I’m not trying to give Tech anything more than a competitive chance.

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27 minutes ago, Grover said:

I really get tired of the enrollment argument.  CG played football for 40 years without a whiff of the state finals.  Then we hired Eric Moore who stepped up the entire program.  Not the team -- the program.  The investment in the CG facilities has been largely/partly forced by the varsity's success.  Chicken or the egg, right?  But the bottom line is that CG's enrollment is in the bottom half of 6A.  We could have whined about it but we instead chose to get better.  We joined the MIC when pretty much everybody involved thought we were setting ourselves up to go 0-9 every year.  

You can't control your enrollment but you can control how hard you work.

CG and Tech are nearly identical in terms of enrollment but the comparison ends there.

Does CG outwork Tech?

Does CG have a “huge” facilities advantage over Tech?

In the time Moore has been at CG, Tech has had 10 coaches.

Why do you think this is so?

How in the hell are you supposed to build anything?

Edited by temptation
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5 hours ago, temptation said:

As I stated before in a separate thread, Nick Saban could take the reins at Tech and it simply would not matter.

Its a numbers/socioeconomic status issue.

Look no farther than the turnover.

I thought it was the free lunch factor??

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1 hour ago, Grover said:

I really get tired of the enrollment argument.  CG played football for 40 years without a whiff of the state finals.  Then we hired Eric Moore who stepped up the entire program.  Not the team -- the program.  The investment in the CG facilities has been largely/partly forced by the varsity's success.  Chicken or the egg, right?  But the bottom line is that CG's enrollment is in the bottom half of 6A.  We could have whined about it but we instead chose to get better.  We joined the MIC when pretty much everybody involved thought we were setting ourselves up to go 0-9 every year.  

You can't control your enrollment but you can control how hard you work.

so f#@%*** spot on.........my kid battled CG during border wars and IEFA....won a few and got an ass kicking in a few.....this upcoming season senior season I already know the outcome.....the CG program has kept those kids from moving, transferring etc...their culture is and will be a bitch to overcome for years to come.

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1 hour ago, Grover said:

I really get tired of the enrollment argument.  CG played football for 40 years without a whiff of the state finals.  Then we hired Eric Moore who stepped up the entire program.  Not the team -- the program.  The investment in the CG facilities has been largely/partly forced by the varsity's success.  Chicken or the egg, right?  But the bottom line is that CG's enrollment is in the bottom half of 6A.  We could have whined about it but we instead chose to get better.  We joined the MIC when pretty much everybody involved thought we were setting ourselves up to go 0-9 every year.  

You can't control your enrollment but you can control how hard you work.

Yes, it’s so simple how did no one know? The teams who can’t get to Lucas Oil just need to work harder. Nothing else should be considered a factor. You’d have a hard time convincing me kids from schools like Merrillville or Jeff want to win any less than CG. Or that they don’t work as hard. CG has many advantages over the bottom 8 of 6a. 

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4 minutes ago, Bears62 said:

Yes, it’s so simple how did no one know? The teams who can’t get to Lucas Oil just need to work harder. Nothing else should be considered a factor. You’d have a hard time convincing me kids from schools like Merrillville or Jeff want to win any less than CG. Or that they don’t work as hard. CG has many advantages over the bottom 8 of 6a. 

do you need a tampon anytime soon?

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15 hours ago, temptation said:

Nick Saban could take the reins at Tech and it simply would not matter.

 

I would think that it would. You'd have parents "moving" to the district to be coached by Saban...I mean switching jobs and ending up at Tech or having to help grandma or Aunt Matilda.

Edited by BDGiant93
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11 hours ago, Grover said:

You can't control your enrollment but you can control how hard you work.

This is a slap in the face to the coaches at Tech and schools like it who work darn hard to put a good product on the field yet face an entirely different set of circumstances than Coach Moore does. Heck, the Ben Davis and Warren staffs face entirely different circumstances than Coach Moore. 

What Coach Moore has done has been remarkable and I don't know how he coaches track AND football. Those are two HUGE sports and he's doing both and succeeding in both. He's a great coach for sure, but the idea that because Tech doesn't have a lot of success that those coaches aren't working hard is ridiculous. They do work hard, and their students need them in their lives.

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4 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

This is a slap in the face to the coaches at Tech and schools like it who work darn hard to put a good product on the field yet face an entirely different set of circumstances than Coach Moore does. Heck, the Ben Davis and Warren staffs face entirely different circumstances than Coach Moore. 

What Coach Moore has done has been remarkable and I don't know how he coaches track AND football. Those are two HUGE sports and he's doing both and succeeding in both. He's a great coach for sure, but the idea that because Tech doesn't have a lot of success that those coaches aren't working hard is ridiculous. They do work hard, and their students need them in their lives.

Agreed it's not just a "work harder" solution here.  That may be the case for some of these schools, and may not I'm not going down that path.  But it does require significant district investment to achieve that goal.  That is missing in many many school districts.   Take Brownsburg as an example.  10 years ago you'd never put them in the neighborhood of BD.  But the district has taken many steps from that list I gave earlier to improve the competitiveness of the district.  They may not have the complete investments that BD or Carmel has for their program, but it appears they are putting in great strides to match it sooner rather than later.  Brownsburg has done enough to compete with BD.  Even to the point of a two game winning streak against them.   This can be done at Lafayette Jeff, this can be done at Noblesville, this can be done at Homestead etc.    It's not easy and it's not over night but it can be done.  CG is the model, New Pal is the model, it can be replicated.     It's not about kids working harder alone, let's not simplify it to that.  The CG kids could bust their tails but if they didn't have the other pieces in place they'd have minor success.   

To the dropping 8-16 teams to 5A, we've been down this road before a decade ago.  Then the bottom of the top class was nearly 3 times smaller than the bigger schools, and over 4 times to the outliers.   6A was created to address the issue.  A 32 team 6A allowed for the bottom to be less than the 2x of the bigger schools.  That was a problem, it was addressed.  This "problem" is not in the same neighborhood of having a school of 1300 play at Warren Central, it's just not.  

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2 minutes ago, CoachGallogly said:

Agreed it's not just a "work harder" solution here.  That may be the case for some of these schools, and may not I'm not going down that path.  But it does require significant district investment to achieve that goal.  That is missing in many many school districts.   Take Brownsburg as an example.  10 years ago you'd never put them in the neighborhood of BD.  But the district has taken many steps from that list I gave earlier to improve the competitiveness of the district.  They may not have the complete investments that BD or Carmel has for their program, but it appears they are putting in great strides to match it sooner rather than later.  Brownsburg has done enough to compete with BD.  Even to the point of a two game winning streak against them.   This can be done at Lafayette Jeff, this can be done at Noblesville, this can be done at Homestead etc.    It's not easy and it's not over night but it can be done.  CG is the model, New Pal is the model, it can be replicated.     It's not about kids working harder alone, let's not simplify it to that.  The CG kids could bust their tails but if they didn't have the other pieces in place they'd have minor success.   

This "district investment" is yet another reason why the IHSAA should drop it's primarily enrollment based classification system and go to one of pure promotion/relegation.    Then these factors like socioeconomics, "working hard",  and district investment in a football program would ultimately be in the mix of where a school is classified.  The current enrollment based classification system for the most part (ie. success factor) ignores these factors when it should not. 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

This "district investment" is yet another reason why the IHSAA should drop it's primarily enrollment based classification system and go to one of pure promotion/relegation. 

How would you go about making promotion/relegation decisions? I mean, we can’t even get the IHSAA to seed the tournament.

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