You Make the Call - 12 on Defense

[Bobref]

Saw this one last night. Pretend you’re the back judge. What do you do?
 

3rd and 4 from the A 38 yd. line. Both teams come to the line ready for the snap. B12 realized he shouldn’t be on the field, and sprints for the sideline. The snap is imminent. You’re the back judge, primarily responsible for counting the number of defensive players on every play. What do you do?
 

1. Blow the whistle, kill the clock, throw a flag for illegal substitution, a 5 yd. dead ball foul.
2. Let it go to see if B12 makes it off the field before the snap. If he doesn’t, throw a flag for illegal substitution, a 5 yd. live ball foul.
3. Let it go to see if B12 makes it off the field before the snap. If he doesn’t, throw a flag for illegal participation, a 15 yd. live ball foul.

 

[refabee]

On 9/25/2021 at 8:20 AM, Bobref said:

Saw this one last night. Pretend you’re the back judge. What do you do?
 

3rd and 4 from the A 38 yd. line. Both teams come to the line ready for the snap. B12 realized he shouldn’t be on the field, and sprints for the sideline. The snap is imminent. You’re the back judge, primarily responsible for counting the number of defensive players on every play. What do you do?
 

1. Blow the whistle, kill the clock, throw a flag for illegal substitution, a 5 yd. dead ball foul.
2. Let it go to see if B12 makes it off the field before the snap. If he doesn’t, throw a flag for illegal substitution, a 5 yd. live ball foul.
3. Let it go to see if B12 makes it off the field before the snap. If he doesn’t, throw a flag for illegal participation, a 15 yd. live ball foul.

 

As Back Judge, if B12 has a chance to make it off the field before the snap, then #2, if I know B12 will not make it off the field before the snap, then #1. My reasoning is if B12 doesn't make it off the field, B12 may then decide to participate in the play & I want to avoid that penalty if at all possible.

[gonzoron]

40 minutes ago, Bobref said:

Saw this one last night. Pretend you’re the back judge. What do you do?
 

3rd and 4 from the A 38 yd. line. Both teams come to the line ready for the snap. B12 realized he shouldn’t be on the field, and sprints for the sideline. The snap is imminent. You’re the back judge, primarily responsible for counting the number of defensive players on every play. What do you do?
 

1. Blow the whistle, kill the clock, throw a flag for illegal substitution, a 5 yd. dead ball foul.
2. Let it go to see if B12 makes it off the field before the snap. If he doesn’t, throw a flag for illegal substitution, a 5 yd. live ball foul.
3. Let it go to see if B12 makes it off the field before the snap. If he doesn’t, throw a flag for illegal participation, a 15 yd. live ball foul.

 

Without looking anything up, I'm going to guess #1. It was illegal substitution when they had 12 in the huddle.

[Bobref]

7 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

Without looking anything up, I'm going to guess #1. It was illegal substitution when they had 12 in the huddle.

12 in the huddle is not a foul under the NF code.

[gonzoron]

1 minute ago, Bobref said:

12 in the huddle is not a foul under the NF code.

Fair enough. It is in NCAA though correct? I saw it called in a game last week. Can't remember if it was College or NFL.

[Bobref]

15 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

Fair enough. It is in NCAA though correct? I saw it called in a game last week. Can't remember if it was College or NFL.

@JustRulesknows a lot more about the NCAA code than I do, but I believe that is correct.

[gonzoron]

31 minutes ago, Bobref said:

12 in the huddle is not a foul under the NF code.

Officiating is hard.

[Irishman]

I am guessing number 2. For it to rise to number 3, he would have to participate in the play, right? Rather than just running off the field? I will defer to @Yuccaguy on the 12 man rules though. 
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[gonzoron]

3 minutes ago, Irishman said:

I am guessing number 2. For it to rise to number 3, he would have to participate in the play, right? Rather than just running off the field? I will defer to @Yuccaguy on the 12 man rules though. 
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

That 12th man wears the white hat, correct???

[Yuccaguy]

#2.  As he was making a legitimate attempt to exit the field and NOT participate in the on-field play.  

[Yuccaguy]

13 minutes ago, Irishman said:

I am guessing number 2. For it to rise to number 3, he would have to participate in the play, right? Rather than just running off the field? I will defer to @Yuccaguy on the 12 man rules though. 
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

I completely UNDERSTAND this sentiment...🤪  

[JustRules]

On 9/25/2021 at 9:28 AM, Bobref said:

@JustRulesknows a lot more about the NCAA code than I do, but I believe that is correct.

Breaking the huddle with 12 if a foul in NCAA. Having 12 in the huddle is not. Unless they were there for more than 3 seconds without the 12th player leaving the field. It's not something to be overly technical about unless a team is getting a major advantage by doing it. If you have 12 participate in the play you definitely get it. If the defense is running off the field with the 12th player and they are not near the sideline call it. We had a play last week where the offense came from the sideline with 12. When I was getting my 2nd and 3rd counts I realized they were confused and trying to figure who had to leave. They did while doing my 3rd count and that player had to run from the other side of the field. It technically probably met the criteria of an illegal substitution but thanks to the substitution rule the umpire is able to stand over the ball to allow the defense to match up. And if the play clock expired during that time too bad for the offense.

[5GetsYou1]

1 hour ago, refabee said:

As Back Judge, if B12 has a chance to make it off the field before the snap, then #2, if I know B12 will not make it off the field before the snap, then #1. My reasoning is if B12 doesn't make it off the field, B12 may then decide to participate in the play & I want to avoid that penalty if at all possible.

This is a great answer, just wanted to add if the player has a chance to make it off before the snap we will announce over the radio that he has to get off so the wing official knows if he doesn't it's illegal. 

You might be surprised how many times the 11th player runs off the field thinking he makes 12 and the defense plays with 10. 

[Bobref]

14 minutes ago, 5GetsYou1 said:

You might be surprised how many times the 11th player runs off the field thinking he makes 12 and the defense plays with 10.

So true. I’ve seen some pretty hilarious substitution situations. Looked like the Keystone Cops … if anyone out there is old enough to remember that.

[foxbat]

On 9/25/2021 at 8:20 AM, Bobref said:

Saw this one last night. Pretend you’re the back judge. What do you do?
 

3rd and 4 from the A 38 yd. line. Both teams come to the line ready for the snap. B12 realized he shouldn’t be on the field, and sprints for the sideline. The snap is imminent. You’re the back judge, primarily responsible for counting the number of defensive players on every play. What do you do?
 

1. Blow the whistle, kill the clock, throw a flag for illegal substitution, a 5 yd. dead ball foul.
2. Let it go to see if B12 makes it off the field before the snap. If he doesn’t, throw a flag for illegal substitution, a 5 yd. live ball foul.
3. Let it go to see if B12 makes it off the field before the snap. If he doesn’t, throw a flag for illegal participation, a 15 yd. live ball foul.

 

Which one's most likely to get you a date in the parking lot after the game with the fan who had a couple before the game and brought in his own flask?

[oldtimeqb]

10 hours ago, JustRules said:

Breaking the huddle with 12 if a foul in NCAA. Having 12 in the huddle is not. Unless they were there for more than 3 seconds without the 12th player leaving the field. It's not something to be overly technical about unless a team is getting a major advantage by doing it. 

There's the rub. Your definition of major advantage and a coach's definition might be two different things.  

An organized coaching staff can be put at a disadvantage.  In Bob's original question he mentioned it's 3rd and 4. The offense sends in a bigger RB/FB type and he joins the huddle. Is he replacing the current RB or are they taking a WR out and going to play with 2 backs?  The offense breaks the huddle and the two backs remain in the backfield. Two receivers run left and two receivers run right.   Out of the huddle, the defense is trying to align to cover a 12 man formation - until one of those receivers running left continues jogging all the way to his sideline. 

I really hope the defense wasn't going to play man to man, or now the DB running with the guy who continued to his sideline suddenly realizes he is wrong no one and there is another man uncovered... the ball is snapped. 

Yes. I know "Can't break the huddle with 12" isn't a penalty but I think the defense would be completely justified in complaining about it. 

 

[snrmike]

The OP mentions that the Defense had 12 on the field.  In rule-book-speak "B" (as in B12), was running off the field.  In HS rules, if the snap is imminent the whistle can blow before the snap.  In all of the aforementioned scenarios, a penalty was assessed on the "B" team because one team does have an advantage over the other.  It was just a matter of whether a 15-yarder or a 5-yarder.

If this occurs on the offense, or if the 12th man doesn't leave the A huddle within 3 seconds, there should still be a foul flagged for Illegal Sub for 5-yards. If A12 was running off, but not "participating" it would still be 5.  We had the situation on the "A" (Offense) on Friday night.  Twice.  Each time a foul was called because the A player couldn't make it to the sideline (not even close).

BTW - a pretty good number of officials either played the game or coached it.  They know the ramifications of the advantages/disadvantages.  

Good discussion!!!!