This topic is closed to whiners and trollers...just football

[HHPatriots]

1 hour ago, Muda69 said:

Ahh, so the passing cognoscenti have had to use rule changes to make their preferred play style viable.   Must be nice to have the OMG! High School Athletes to run such a system year after year after year.  

Control the clock and the number of possessions.  Win the game.

 

For the current GS team it doesn't matter.  They can and have literally scored 60 points in 13 minutes.

[DumfriesYMCA]

3 minutes ago, HHPatriots said:

For the current GS team it doesn't matter.  They can and have literally scored 60 points in 13 minutes.

I would like to point out that it’s more than just GS.  I think it can be applied to most teams…you just need a QB who can make the throw…it can be 5 yards for all it matters or it could be a 40 yard deep ball…getting the ball to an athlete in space where they have to only beat 1-3 guys is just going to be more efficient.  Like all things though it takes practice and discipline to get good at it

[HHPatriots]

4 minutes ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

I would like to point out that it’s more than just GS.  I think it can be applied to most teams…you just need a QB who can make the throw…it can be 5 yards for all it matters or it could be a 40 yard deep ball…getting the ball to an athlete in space where they have to only beat 1-3 guys is just going to be more efficient.  Like all things though it takes practice and discipline to get good at it

Agreed, the problem is that many schools don't develop a QB, often because they don't know how or it is just to hard.  You don't get a Jay Cutler, Brady Allan, Colson Montgomery (he would have been really good if he stayed in football) but once in a generation.  You have to develop the "normal" kids and many programs just find it too hard--those programs will get left behind.

Before our regular season game against GS, a buddy of mine said "we need to do the best we can to keep the ball out of their (GS) hands".  My reply was that it flat out doesn't matter when they drop 60+ on Southridge in 13 minutes!  LEARN TO DEFEND THE PASS!

No longer will a high school program be successful without throwing the ball well with a developed QB.  4 times a game won't cut it.  You can't simply say, "who is the most athletic senior we have?"  Make him the QB!  Set sail to fail.....

Now with that said, we did it in 2019.  In 15 games, Cole probably didn't throw the ball 25 times, but we had one of the best defenses in the state (points allowed).

[DumfriesYMCA]

3 minutes ago, HHPatriots said:

Agreed, the problem is that many schools don't develop a QB, often because they don't know how or it is just to hard.  You don't get a Jay Cutler, Brady Allan, Colson Montgomery (he would have been really good if he stayed in football) but once in a generation.  You have to develop the "normal" kids and many programs just find it too hard--those programs will get left behind.

Before our regular season game against GS, a buddy of mine said "we need to do the best we can to keep the ball out of their (GS) hands".  My reply was that it flat out doesn't matter when they drop 60+ on Southridge in 13 minutes!  LEARN TO DEFEND THE PASS!

No longer will a high school program be successful without throwing the ball well with a developed QB.  4 times a game won't cut it.  You can't simply say, "who is the most athletic senior we have?"  Make him the QB!  Set sail to fail.....

Now with that said, we did it in 2019.  In 15 games, Cole probably didn't throw the ball 25 times, but we had one of the best defenses in the state (points allowed).

Yes yes and yes 

 

you have to defend the pass….keeping your offense on the field longer just means you’re being less efficient with your time of possession.  
 

I don’t think you need to develop a QB a ton though…but some development is needed. 
 

on the side note…I would have loved to see what Montgomery would have done at Southridge if he played beyond his freshman year.  He was going to be great no matter what sport he chose 

[Muda69]

So Jimmies and Joes beats X's and O's.  Got it.

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Muda69

[foxbat]

11 hours ago, Brettlow said:

Here, talk football no whining!

Appreciate the effort ... it was good while it lasted.  Who had 30 on the over/under?

[Muda69]

56 minutes ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

I don’t know why you are trying to play the figure of wise older gentleman like you are inherently smarter than everyone but statistically you’re just wrong and it’s ignorant of you to continue to do so on this topic.  There isn’t much of a correlation between time of possession and winning the game. 
 

 

just under 9 minutes to score 49 points.  I can’t remember the last time GS won the time of possession battle. Honestly it’s more important for other teams because their goal is to keep the offense off the field more to limit the damage…but the passing game is efficient so the longer the offense is out there the less likely it is that they can comeback. 
 

it’s this way in the nfl with many of the top teams going 60/40 pass if not more….in college we seen it with burrow and LSU…even saban has commented saying that you have to pass in today’s game and most of college is catching on to this too….it’s becoming that way for HS.

 

An appropriate comparison is to the advancements in tools/home building….30 years ago sub contractors laughed at the idea of setting up an air compressor and air hoses to use pneumatic staplers/nailers, citing there was a lot of setup work to get it going and thinking it’s less efficient….today you wouldn’t catch a construction company without one if there was a use because of how much more efficient it is once everything is in place…it’s less taxing on the body too…even the Amish use air compressors nowadays 

Then I guess this old fan won't be paying to watch an Indiana High School football game for much longer.

Run The Ball.  Play Defense. Win.

 

[DumfriesYMCA]

31 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Then I guess this old fan won't be paying to watch an Indiana High School football game for much longer.

Run The Ball.  Play Defense. Win.

 

You poor thing.  Miss me with that crap about caring about $6 because Karen didn’t enjoy seeing a team not run the ball for 3/4 yards 40 Times in a row 

Edited October 25, 2021 by DumfriesYMCA

[Muda69]

2 minutes ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

You poor thing.  Miss me with that crap about caring about $6 because Karen didn’t enjoy seeing a team not run the ball for 3/4 yards 40 Times in a row 

Karen? I just don't enjoy seeing a high school team throw the ball 50-75% of their offensive snaps.  And I'll vote with my wallet, thank you very much. It is the American Way.

Glad to know there are other wise coaches out there in this great country:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/09/19/spread-offenses-take-over-football-some-coaches-gain-an-edge-by-going-traditional/

https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/high-school/2019/10/09/old-school-offenses-still-have-place-todays-hs-football-scene-wing-t/3920486002/

 

 

[DumfriesYMCA]

😂😂😂 this isn’t some moral dilemma of great importance like many political issues.
 

you just rather get your way than see your favorite team be the most efficient with their time on offense.  
 

you’re not a martyr, you’re a blockade

[gonzoron]

1 hour ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

it’s this way in the nfl with many of the top teams going 60/40 pass if not more….in college we seen it with burrow and LSU…even saban has commented saying that you have to pass in today’s game and most of college is catching on to this too….it’s becoming that way for HS.

This doesn't apply to Gibson Southern. It's closer to 49/51 pass to run.

[Ballhawk]

3 hours ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

Looking at stats to reference what I’m talking about 

 

Gibson Southern has attempted 212 passes for 2724 yards…good for 12.8 yards per attempt…doesn’t even factor in DPI or Dholding or roughing the QB

 

Gibson Southern has run the ball 215 times for 1698 yards…good for 7.9 per play…..the penalties in play are pretty much horse collar or holding…but nothing different that any person with the ball.  
 

now granted GS has Brady Allen but GS has done this for 10 years and that’s because it works.  
 

the goal is to move usually about 80 yards or less and score….do you want to take 10+ plays to do it or do you want to do it in 6/7? 

How many titles have they won with this philosophy?  I see a lot of run-heavy offenses winning in late October, early November.

[DumfriesYMCA]

19 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

This doesn't apply to Gibson Southern. It's closer to 49/51 pass to run.

It’s lopsided from the running clock….but this isn’t about Gibson Southern anyways…that’s just the easiest example I know of to use outside of the NFL

just the simple premise that passing the ball is more efficient the ball when all things are equal.  Of course if you have Derrick Henry on your HS team and a freshman QB, you’re going to run the ball.  It’s about efficiency 

[DumfriesYMCA]

I would like to add that the best Heritage Hills teams (ya know the team that is King when it comes to running the wishbone)….I would argue that their best teams have been when they had a QB who could make the throws and know how to make the right reads when they did choose to run.  
 

lesser known thing…Jay cutler threw it for like 2500 yards in the wishbone when he was at Heritage Hills some 20 years ago…some of the other great HH teams did the same….they won state on a passing play too lol. 
 

I also think about some of the West Lafayette teams and Memorial as of recently.  Shoot even Chatard was passing the ball more a few years ago (they might still be idk) 
 

this isn’t about any specific team though.  This is just about football like the OP intended for this thread.  
 

and I’ll argue that passing is the more efficient option every day of the week

11 minutes ago, Ballhawk said:

How many titles have they won with this philosophy?  I see a lot of run-heavy offenses winning in late October, early November.

see my comments above.  The Titans might not have but other teams sure have and it’s how many teams these days are winning…and for good reason 

[scarab527]

How many teams have won 6A/5A only running the football? Yeah you can win doing that at the lower levels but when it comes to big boy football you need to be able to have balance. 

[Bobref]

I enjoy abstract discussions. I participate in a lot of them. Let’s all recognize this for what it is: an abstract discussion. Because all offensive systems are designed to succeed. The best one is the one the players you have are best capable of executing against the opponent. And that is not something that can be decided in the abstract.

[DumfriesYMCA]

4 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

How many teams have won 6A/5A only running the football? Yeah you can win doing that at the lower levels but when it comes to big boy football you need to be able to have balance. 

Agreed.  You won’t be able to run your way out of 3rd and long very often and passing on 3rd and 1 is an unnecessary risk if you’re only looking to get a fresh set of downs. 
 

1 minute ago, Bobref said:

I enjoy abstract discussions. I participate in a lot of them. Let’s all recognize this for what it is: an abstract discussion. Because all offensive systems are designed to succeed. The best one is the one the players you have are best capable of executing against the opponent. And that is not something that can be decided in the abstract.

absolutely.  I mean….if every play is run exactly as it’s drawn up to be, it’s a touchdown 

[Footballking16]

25 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

How many teams have won 6A/5A only running the football? Yeah you can win doing that at the lower levels but when it comes to big boy football you need to be able to have balance. 

Warren did it 4 straight years running the Wing T in the mid 2000s and Center Grove today runs it a hell of a lot more than they throw. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, foxbat said:

Appreciate the effort ... it was good while it lasted.  Who had 30 on the over/under?

I missed, I thought it would be much sooner...

 

[scarab527]

6 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Warren did it 4 straight years running the Wing T in the mid 2000s and Center Grove today runs it a hell of a lot more than they throw. 

15 years ago… and CG has a D1 QB and good receivers, their most explosive plays in the state game last year were all passes. Again, not saying you gotta pass every down… balance is key 

Edited October 25, 2021 by scarab527

[Footballking16]

18 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

15 years ago… and CG has a D1 QB and good receivers, they’re most explosive plays in the state game last year were all passes. Again, not saying you gotta pass every down… balance is key 

Wouldn't say Center Grove is balanced. 335 of their 470 offensive plays (assuming MaxPreps is accurate) have been running plays. Guessing if Jackson wasn't a D1 QB capable of pushing the ball downfield that number would be greater. If Center Grove didn't attempt a forward pass for the rest of the year they'd still win every game by 3+ TDs. Center Grove passes out of luxury, not because they have too. 

[DumfriesYMCA]

What I wanna know 

 

which is better 

 

3-4 or 4-3 defense? Lots of variance to these but assuming you have all the talent you could ever dream of to run either…which one does better? 

[scarab527]

Just now, Footballking16 said:

Wouldn't say Center Grove is balanced. 335 of their 470 offensive plays (assuming MaxPreps is accurate) have been running plays. Guessing if Jackson wasn't a D1 QB capable of pushing the ball downfield that number would be greater. If Center Grove didn't attempt a forward pass for the rest of the year they'd still win every game by 3+ TDs. Center Grove passes out of luxury, not because they have too. 

How many of those runs have been after the game is out of reach and they’re just trying to eat the clock? 

Just now, DumfriesYMCA said:

What I wanna know 

 

which is better 

 

3-4 or 4-3 defense? Lots of variance to these but assuming you have all the talent you could ever dream of to run either…which one does better? 

4-3 myself, just hard to get 4 studs on that d-line. Prolly why most hs teams run the 3-4

[DumfriesYMCA]

1 minute ago, scarab527 said:

How many of those runs have been after the game is out of reach and they’re just trying to eat the clock? 

Probably a lot.  Jackson is pretty legit and probably a welcome sight to TN.  

[Footballking16]

17 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

How many of those runs have been after the game is out of reach and they’re just trying to eat the clock? 

Probably a lot of them, but I would not call Center Grove a balanced offensive team. They are a run first team who can throw the ball when needed. Jackson has thrown the ball 126 times in 9 games. That isn't a lot.