BDGiant93 Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 6 minutes ago, Footballking16 said: You could make an argument that David Bell wasn't even the most deserving player on his own TEAM that year. Romeir Elliott rushed for 3100 yards and scored 41 TD's that year. Only one other largest class player has ever rushed for 3,000+ yards in a single season, Shakir Bell who was also snubbed of the award. Bell was the best player. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballking16 Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 19 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said: Bell was the best player. I didn't say best player, I said most deserving. As we've seen with this award, it's usually a best player award on best team. Hard to argue Jack Kiser's worth to Pioneer and what he did on both sides of the ball. That being said, there's only two players in then 5A/now 6A to rush for over 3,000 yards in a single season and Romeir Elliott is one of those players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastpacedO Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 3 hours ago, DumfriesYMCA said: Just thinking about what spegal would have put up playing full games is insanity. He might have put up 15K career yards lol nuts Yes he could have. Darren Evans and Otis Shannon Could have had just as many if not more had they been a starter their Freshman year. Charlie Spegal and Sammy Mireles both started as Freshman, Evan's and Shannon started as Sophomores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screagle Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 1 hour ago, Footballking16 said: I didn't say best player, I said most deserving. As we've seen with this award, it's usually a best player award on best team. Hard to argue Jack Kiser's worth to Pioneer and what he did on both sides of the ball. That being said, there's only two players in then 5A/now 6A to rush for over 3,000 yards in a single season and Romeir Elliott is one of those players. That year finished kizer Bell Lindauer Elliot I think George QB from WC was just outside top 4. 3 players from one team. Wow. Bell wound have been my pick. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballking16 Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 1 hour ago, Screagle said: That year finished kizer Bell Lindauer Elliot I think George QB from WC was just outside top 4. 3 players from one team. Wow. Bell wound have been my pick. Definitely make a case for Bell. Think you could have made a reasonable case for Elliott as well. We saw a 6A back win it last year with far lesser numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grover Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 Russ Yeast should have won in 2016 but the voters went with the QB instead. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bash Riprock Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 3 hours ago, Footballking16 said: You could make an argument that David Bell wasn't even the most deserving player on his own TEAM that year. Romeir Elliott rushed for 3100 yards and scored 41 TD's that year. Only one other largest class player has ever rushed for 3,000+ yards in a single season, Shakir Bell who was also snubbed of the award. How does that support your argument that the Indy metro area is favored by the IndyStar (which according to you influences the vote of the coaches across the state) when not only is David Bell not selected, but his teammate Romeir Elliott didn't even make the list? You further make a true statement about Shakir Bell being snubbed in 2009/10. These examples you provided don't support your claim of the Indy metro bias by the IndyStar...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bash Riprock Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 32 minutes ago, Grover said: Russ Yeast should have won in 2016 but the voters went with the QB instead. Absolutely.....the claim is that the award isn't based upon a career, but it didn't help Yeast that he only played one season in Indiana. Far and away, the best all around player in the state of Indiana (offense, defense and special teams) and won the Indiana Gatorade Player of the Year. Helped his team all the way to the state finals with a crushing OT loss, while the QB that won it played on a team that never won a sectional. (I believe) BTW, congrats to Yeast making 1st Team All Big 12 playing safety for Kansas State this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballking16 Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said: How does that support your argument that the Indy metro area is favored by the IndyStar (which according to you influences the vote of the coaches across the state) when not only is David Bell not selected, but his teammate Romeir Elliott didn't even make the list? You further make a true statement about Shakir Bell being snubbed in 2009/10. These examples you provided don't support your claim of the Indy metro bias by the IndyStar...... Romeir Elliott DID make the list. He was Mr. Football for the Running Back position that year and was one of the finalists. We are talking about one year in the nearly 30 years the award has been given. Perhaps we call 2018 an outlier? Do you know what an outlier is? Bottom line, more than half the award winners have come from central Indiana and 14 of the 29 winners have all come from the largest class. When there are 5 (now 6 classes) and one class has nearly 50% of the winners it's hard not to conclude there is some kind of bias. Just stating facts, don't shoot the messenger. Edited December 7, 2021 by Footballking16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bash Riprock Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 Just now, Footballking16 said: Romeir Elliott DID make the list. He was Mr. Football for the Running Back position that year and was one of the finalist. We are talking about one year in the nearly 30 years the award has been given. Perhaps we call 2018 an outlier? Do you know what an outlier is? Bottom line, more than half the award winners have come from central Indiana and 14 of the 29 winners have all come from the largest class. When there are 5 (now 6 classes) and one class has nearly 50% of the winners its hard not to conclude there is some kind of bias. Just stating facts, don't shoot the messenger. Sorry...I meant the final 2... Do you know what an outlier is? You just provided 2 examples over a relative short period with Warren Central alone. So you understand the concept of populations to include the locations of the best overall football programs in the state churning out not only the largest volume of players but the largest % of the best overall all around players and programs, right? You may not corner the market on statistics....then again, its not really statistics to claim the IndyStar influences the voting coaches across the state....that is more of a conspiracy theory...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballking16 Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 21 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said: So you understand the concept of populations to include the locations of the best overall football programs in the state churning out not only the largest volume of players but the largest % of the best overall all around players and programs, right? Define best? Mr. Football isn't a program award by any means and rarely does the "best football player" win the award. The two highest rated recruits in the state with the best offer sheets (McCullough and Goodwin) didn't even win their position awards this year. And neither reside in Central Indiana, go figure. The award in most years (not every year...hence outliers) typically goes to the best offensive skill position player on the best larger class team. The best large class programs are located in Central Indiana. The award has bias towards it and has for years and frankly don't give a Sh*t if you agree with me or not. That isn't my problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grover Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 (edited) McCullough is a linebacker who got beat by a 5A player from Ft Wayne. Goodwin lost to a 3A player from Lawrenceburg. Edited December 7, 2021 by Grover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballking16 Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 19 minutes ago, Grover said: McCullough is a linebacker who got beat by a 2A player from Andrean. Goodwin lost to a 3A player from Lawrenceburg. The 2A line backer is a junior thus ineligible for the position award and Goodwin has over 50 committable FBS offers and may shun Kentucky for Alabama on signing day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bash Riprock Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Footballking16 said: The award has bias towards it and has for years and frankly don't give a Sh*t if you agree with me or not. That isn't my problem. You absolutely have proved nothing...other than getting triggered as usual when you run into someone that doesn't buy what you are trying to sell. First you blame the IndyStar...and then when called out by me and others for that being false, you evidently believe now the coaches are biased for the Indy area. As if coaches across the state can't think for themselves. Your application of statistics is beyond laughable....you are no expert in that arena. Another approach would be offering up players from outside the Indy region that were worthy of the award and lost out to Indy area players....that would have been a strong start in lieu of making unfounded accusations. You must give a sh*t as to what I think...because you stop yourself from the childish responses. Edited December 7, 2021 by Bash Riprock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan32 Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 3 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said: You absolutely have proved nothing...other than getting triggered as usual when you run into someone that doesn't buy what you are trying to sell. First you blame the IndyStar...and then when called out by me and others for that being false, you evidently believe now the coaches are biased for the Indy area. As if coaches across the state can't think for themselves. Your application of statistics is beyond laughable....you are no expert in that arena. Another approach would be offering up players from outside the Indy region that were worthy of the award and lost out to Indy area players....that would have been a strong start in lieu of making unfounded accusations. You must give a sh*t as to what I think...because you stop yourself from the childish responses. I think the recent change that allowed all coaches to vote .vs when there were only 10 per class has removed the bias that (may or may not) have existed before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballking16 Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 19 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said: You absolutely have proved nothing...other than getting triggered as usual when you run into someone that doesn't buy what you are trying to sell. First you blame the IndyStar...and then when called out by me and others for that being false, you evidently believe now the coaches are biased for the Indy area. As if coaches across the state can't think for themselves. Your application of statistics is beyond laughable....you are no expert in that arena. Another approach would be offering up players from outside the Indy region that were worthy of the award and lost out to Indy area players....that would have been a strong start in lieu of making unfounded accusations. You must give a sh*t as to what I think...because you stop yourself from the childish responses. Lol. You're right I don't need to prove anything, the prior award winners speak for themselves (and parallels everything I've stated). I said the Mr. Football award is usually biased towards players from Central IN and the largest class in my initial post and you have done absolutely nothing to contradict that statement. Knock yourself out though trying to show evidence otherwise. 19 minutes ago, Titan32 said: I think the recent change that allowed all coaches to vote .vs when there were only 10 per class has removed the bias that (may or may not) have existed before. I started taking the award with a grain of salt when Morgan Newton won the award over Nick Zachery in 2008. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballking16 Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 25 minutes ago, Titan32 said: I think the recent change that allowed all coaches to vote .vs when there were only 10 per class has removed the bias that (may or may not) have existed before. And honestly, I think extending votes to every coach in the state is only going to further muddy the award. There's 300+ coaches in the state of Indiana. How many of these coaches have actually seen the person they are voting for play live? Do you think the coach of Angola had ever seen Brady Allen up until the state title game Thanksgiving weekend? Assuming he even watched the broadcast? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonzoron Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 8 minutes ago, Footballking16 said: How many of these coaches have actually seen the person they are voting for play live? Do you think the coach of Angola had ever seen Brady Allen up until the state title game Thanksgiving weekend? Not many of us had seen him. I've often wondered why Gibson Southern doesn't stream at least their home games. There is a huge audience out there willing to watch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballking16 Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 (edited) 27 minutes ago, gonzoron said: Not many of us had seen him. I've often wondered why Gibson Southern doesn't stream at least their home games. There is a huge audience out there willing to watch. And it just furthers my previous insinuation as to why so many guys from Central Indiana playing in the larger classes have won the award so many times. Best offensive player on best Central Indiana team is likely to be the most publicized player in the state. Anyone want to take a guess as to what the largest publication in Indiana is.....that may or may not present the award? I won't name names but some people (because I apparently already rail on him to hard) are too dumb for their own good. Edited December 7, 2021 by Footballking16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan32 Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Footballking16 said: And honestly, I think extending votes to every coach in the state is only going to further muddy the award. There's 300+ coaches in the state of Indiana. How many of these coaches have actually seen the person they are voting for play live? Do you think the coach of Angola had ever seen Brady Allen up until the state title game Thanksgiving weekend? Assuming he even watched the broadcast? I think that is a valid point....but I also think it might be that the muddying may skew away from INDY metro. Even in a tier two city like Evansville, Indy area football might as well not even exist. The causal fan down here thinks that the MIC is something you sing into (hopefully coaches know more). Edited December 7, 2021 by Titan32 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grover Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 58 minutes ago, Footballking16 said: The 2A line backer is a junior thus ineligible for the position award and Goodwin has over 50 committable FBS offers and may shun Kentucky for Alabama on signing day. C’mon man! I edited it on the LB. Just thought it was interesting that neither was 6A and neither from the Indy area. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bash Riprock Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 31 minutes ago, Footballking16 said: Lol. You're right I don't need to prove anything, the prior award winners speak for themselves (and parallels everything I've stated). I said the Mr. Football award is usually biased towards players from Central IN and the largest class in my initial post and you have done absolutely nothing to contradict that statement. Knock yourself out though trying to show evidence otherwise. And I will continue to say that purely looking at numbers from 1992 mean nothing statistically. Especially when the largest populations, overall largest schools and majority of the top programs/players come from central Indiana. You might want to consider basic probability in predicting outcomes. Actually, you do have something to prove. You are the once with the bias theory..not me .I am asking you to list Mr. Football winners from Indy metro area that were undeserving and the recepients should have come from other parts of the state. Instead of making wide generic accusations of bias, I challenge you to be specific and prove your bias theory. When you can start to list examples, then we can start to have meaningful discussions. Ball in your court....your bias theory has been challenged. Take a breath, try not to get triggered, fight off the urge to insult, and provide proof. My challenge is that the coaches across this state are not biased to select winners from the Indy metro area. 6 minutes ago, Grover said: C’mon man! I edited it on the LB. Just thought it was interesting that neither was 6A and neither from the Indy area. that was the point he chose to avoid.......... 18 minutes ago, Footballking16 said: I won't name names but some people (because I apparently already rail on him to hard) are too dumb for their own good. Love it when you get stumped...that is the best you can offer...such a child. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballking16 Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 18 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said: Ball in your court....your bias theory has been challenged. Take a breath, try not to get triggered, fight off the urge to insult, and provide proof. My challenge is that the coaches across this state are not biased to select winners from the Indy metro area. Read my most recent post. Coaches outside of Central Indiana aren't going to get to witness players live in Central Indiana, but they're going to get exposure to the best player on the best team in the state due to the IndyStar being the state's largest publication. A coach from Evansville is going to hear much more about a player from Central Indiana due to the Star's coverage than a player who resides up in South Bend or Fort Wayne as the IndyStar is much more polarizing than either of those regional publications. It's very rare for the IndyStar to denote coverage to a player outside Central Indiana. That's called a bias my friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan32 Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 Also don't discount the power in numbers small school (3A and below) coaches will have. They could very well band together out of some sort of general disdain for the audacity of INDY Metro footballs belief that the sun rises and sets in their proverbial sphincters. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballking16 Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 19 minutes ago, Titan32 said: Also don't discount the power in numbers small school (3A and below) coaches will have. They could very well band together out of some sort of general disdain for the audacity of INDY Metro footballs belief that the sun rises and sets in their proverbial sphincters. It may be headed that way now that everyone has a voice, but to deny that over time the award hasn't been favored towards large class players from Central Indiana is being disingenuous at best. You know that, I know that, everyone knows that. Well except the one elephant in the room who once again is acting pedantic. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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