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Hammond Morton Football Placed on Probation for “Undue Influence”


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Generally, blatantly athletic transfers tend to fall into two categories

*-Trophy-shopping - parents are looking for a place where their kid is most likely to win championships. These parents also tend to be really vocal on community social media groups and will let everyone in town know how superior their chosen school is compared to the local school. 

*-Conflicts with the coach/playing time/et al - you see this a lot. "My kid is a D1 player and they're not getting recruited so it's the coach's fault ... the coach isn't designing the offense around my kid ... the coach is mean to me ... the coach plays favorites." Often, these kids also seem to discover they're not getting recruited at other schools, too, and their kid isn't the focal center of the offense. 

I've seen both - especially in my years coaching and being around basketball. Sometimes, it's worked out and the kids climb the ladder (even though they play less minutes and have less of a role than they might have had they stayed home), sometimes, they sit the end of the bench when they could've been a rotation player. And they generally end up going to the same colleges they probably would've gone to before. 

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1 hour ago, crimsonace1 said:

Generally, blatantly athletic transfers tend to fall into two categories

*-Trophy-shopping - parents are looking for a place where their kid is most likely to win championships. These parents also tend to be really vocal on community social media groups and will let everyone in town know how superior their chosen school is compared to the local school. 

*-Conflicts with the coach/playing time/et al - you see this a lot. "My kid is a D1 player and they're not getting recruited so it's the coach's fault ... the coach isn't designing the offense around my kid ... the coach is mean to me ... the coach plays favorites." Often, these kids also seem to discover they're not getting recruited at other schools, too, and their kid isn't the focal center of the offense. 

I've seen both - especially in my years coaching and being around basketball. Sometimes, it's worked out and the kids climb the ladder (even though they play less minutes and have less of a role than they might have had they stayed home), sometimes, they sit the end of the bench when they could've been a rotation player. And they generally end up going to the same colleges they probably would've gone to before. 

Scenario 2 is the type of transfer that needs to be weeded out. If the IHSAA doesn’t put their foot down, it’s only going to be a matter of time before an athlete transfers after the first game because they either didn’t start or were pulled and will try and force their way into a different roster at a different school in the same season.

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On 8/27/2022 at 1:20 AM, Footballking16 said:

Because what kind of life lesson does that teach? Pack up and move at the first sign of adversity? That’s a terrible thing to allow and if the IHSAA sets a precedent going forward that no transfer will affect varsity eligibility, it’s going to get out of hand. Like it’s already impacted the college game, there will be tons of unintended consequences.

I'm all about fighting through adversity.  But I think you're creating a false choice here:

Option 1:  Fight through the first sign of adversity

Option 2: Transfer to a different program

The way you're saying this, there is no Option 3.  In other words, the *only* explanation for a transfer is an unwillingness to fight through adversity in their current program.  I certainly agree that this is a possible one.  Another possible one is that a school has a lot of players at your position, and you'd like to see the field.  Another possible one is that the academic environment isn't well-suited to a student.  Or maybe the social culture at the current school is unhealthy.

The list of reasons a student might want to transfer schools is large.  And I think it should be OK, even if it's primarily motivated by sports.

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15 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Scenario 2 is the type of transfer that needs to be weeded out. If the IHSAA doesn’t put their foot down, it’s only going to be a matter of time before an athlete transfers after the first game because they either didn’t start or were pulled and will try and force their way into a different roster at a different school in the same season.

Personally, I think the parties best-suited to putting an end to that are the potential receiving-school's coaches, not the IHSAA.  If I'm a coach and I learn that a kid is wanting to transfer into my program, my first phone call is going to be to their current coach to find out what is going on.

If I learn that it's a kid like the one you describe, my second phone call would be to the kid's parent/guardian to them him that he's welcome to transfer but that he shouldn't expect the Red Sea to be parted on his behalf....and that I'm not going to let anybody be a cancer or a distraction because of their ambition or sense of entitlement.

The IHSAA, IMO, has shown time and time again that they're terrible at policing this.  That's really not a knock at them, necessarily.  That's just the nature of being a governing body, distant from the realities on the ground.

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As many have mentioned above, there a many different reasons for transfers and they will continue to happen. What I find appalling is the inconsistency of a school's approach to "releasing" a student and accepting a transfer. 

There is a school (will not name it) that will never "release" a current student thus giving them limited eligibility for that year but at the same time will accept all transfers with no limited eligibility. I find this to be hypocritical.

I've heard it stated that this is their policy to never release a student. Ok, I get it if this is your policy.  However, to not have that policy on the incoming side seems to show a lack of integrity. Am I looking at the wrong?

Transfers is a very interesting topic and I debate in my mind but I generally fall on the side of the student athlete. I don't like seeing kids lose a year from an already short time in high school. I especially don't like seeing a kid lose time because it is being driven by an overzealous parent which makes the kid powerless. 

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1 hour ago, MHSTigerFan said:

If I learn that it's a kid like the one you describe, my second phone call would be to the kid's parent/guardian to them him that he's welcome to transfer but that he shouldn't expect the Red Sea to be parted on his behalf....and that I'm not going to let anybody be a cancer or a distraction because of their ambition or sense of entitlement.

So, your first conversation with a kid/parent is going to have a confrontational tone? Based on what you were told by the coach whose team he is leaving? That sort of approach seems a bit hasty to me. How about giving a kid a chance to start with a clean slate, and judging based on what you see yourself?

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1 hour ago, MHSTigerFan said:

I'm all about fighting through adversity.  But I think you're creating a false choice here:

Option 1:  Fight through the first sign of adversity

Option 2: Transfer to a different program

The way you're saying this, there is no Option 3.  In other words, the *only* explanation for a transfer is an unwillingness to fight through adversity in their current program.  I certainly agree that this is a possible one.  Another possible one is that a school has a lot of players at your position, and you'd like to see the field.  Another possible one is that the academic environment isn't well-suited to a student.  Or maybe the social culture at the current school is unhealthy.

The list of reasons a student might want to transfer schools is large.  And I think it should be OK, even if it's primarily motivated by sports.

I'm talking about kids who jump to 3 or 4 schools in their 4 year career. We're heading that direction, already seeing it on the hardwood. I understand a kid transferring after their freshman year being in an overwhelmed situation, but you're now seeing kids transfer every year. That's not healthy in my opinion. 

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20 minutes ago, Bobref said:

So, your first conversation with a kid/parent is going to have a confrontational tone? Based on what you were told by the coach whose team he is leaving? That sort of approach seems a bit hasty to me. How about giving a kid a chance to start with a clean slate, and judging based on what you see yourself?

Maybe.  But that would probably depend on my opinion of the other coach.

I’m an employer and we do this with key people who are wanting to jump ship from one of our competitors.  Sometimes, people do things just to play competing employers off each other, threaten it for leverage, etc.

If it’s a competitor I know and respect (which is most of them), I’ll place the call to them first.  I’ve done it the other way before, and it’s usually better to talk with the other employer first…even if that pisses the employee off.

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17 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

I'm talking about kids who jump to 3 or 4 schools in their 4 year career. We're heading that direction, already seeing it on the hardwood. I understand a kid transferring after their freshman year being in an overwhelmed situation, but you're now seeing kids transfer every year. That's not healthy in my opinion. 

I don’t necessarily disagree with that.  I’m just saying that it’s probably best for the IHSAA to stay out of it.  If a kid is hurting himself (or at least not helping himself) by jumping around that much, that’s on him and/or his parents.  If that hurts the culture in teams he goes to, that’s on their coach.

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On 8/26/2022 at 8:43 AM, RegionFBFan said:

Morton has been "raided" by Merrillville the last few years so apparently Morton thought it was ok to do the same!!

You mean 1 year? Lol 😂 

and the best part is 2 of the 4 transferred in the January before the season they played. So they were in merrillville. The other 2 came after Morton shit down there program. 

17 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Scenario 2 is the type of transfer that needs to be weeded out. If the IHSAA doesn’t put their foot down, it’s only going to be a matter of time before an athlete transfers after the first game because they either didn’t start or were pulled and will try and force their way into a different roster at a different school in the same season.

That’s already Happened in NWI

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1 minute ago, Piratefan101 said:

You mean 1 year? Lol 😂 

and the best part is 2 of the 4 transferred in the January before the season they played. So they were in merrillville. The other 2 came after Morton shit down there program. 

That’s already Happened in NWI

It's happening everywhere, not just Indiana, and it's mimicking the college transfer portal. Until the IHSAA puts their foot down restricting varsity eligibility, it's going to continue to happen. And it's pretty naïve to not think tampering is going on as well. 

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30 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

It's happening everywhere, not just Indiana, and it's mimicking the college transfer portal. Until the IHSAA puts their foot down restricting varsity eligibility, it's going to continue to happen. And it's pretty naïve to not think tampering is going on as well. 

True. But I don’t see a issue with transfers I actually enjoy them. We have gotten a few and lost some. Heck cathedral took our WR!

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54 minutes ago, Piratefan101 said:

and the best part is 2 of the 4 transferred in the January before the season they played. So they were in merrillville. The other 2 came after Morton shit down there program. 

😲

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On 8/27/2022 at 7:14 AM, Bobref said:

Or perhaps it teaches them to recognize and take advantage of opportunities to better themselves.

 

Agreed. We can’t have all these kids going to school wherever they and their parents think is the best place for them. Athletic competitive balance is much more important.

Society today...."its all about me"  If the going gets tough, why stay and compete, when I can simply look for the path of least resistance.  That's beautiful.

Because meddling parents are always 100% right when it comes to understanding competitive sports.....especially the ones that didn't make it themselves and desire to live through their kids.....

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10 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

Society today...."its all about me"  If the going gets tough, why stay and compete, when I can simply look for the path of least resistance.  That's beautiful.

Because meddling parents are always 100% right when it comes to understanding competitive sports.....especially the ones that didn't make it themselves and desire to live through their kids.....

Couldn't have said it better myself.

There's just nothing in me that would leave me to believe that an individual high school student would voluntarily wake up once a year and think, "hey I'm ready to transfer high schools.....again".

It's all influential. Some due influence from family or family members, but a lot from outside coaching...AAU coaches, individual trainers, handlers, etc.

It's becoming a black eye, 

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I agree that the transferring has gotten a little out of control the past few years, but the question is, do we really want an institution to be meddling this much in the lives of students? Over high school sports? Just seems a little ridiculous to me that there's investigations into kids over this kind of stuff. And the fact that some schools have tried to keep seniors out of their last year of a sport is just shameful, and frankly, downright pathetic. 

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49 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

There's a huge difference between transferring schools due to a family physically moving to a new city and a player transferring between 3 and 4 local school districts. 

There is a huge difference between those two scenarios.  There are also kids who couldn't be described by either one.

  • What about a kid whose family moves to a different location within the same city/county/area?
  • What about a kid who doesn't move, but only transfers once or twice rather than 3 or 4 times?
  • What about a kid who transfers multiples times -- but within the same school district?

In fact, I'd guess that a majority of transfers don't meet either of your scenarios.  What then?  Or are we supposed to keep the IHSAA policing all of it just because of kids who transfer 3 or 4 times?  Would you have them change the rule to accommodate 1 or 2 transfers question free?

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38 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

Society today...."its all about me"  If the going gets tough, why stay and compete, when I can simply look for the path of least resistance.  That's beautiful.

Because meddling parents are always 100% right when it comes to understanding competitive sports.....especially the ones that didn't make it themselves and desire to live through their kids.....

I agree with a lot of this.  So I'm not unsympathetic.

However, each situation is unique enough to not be treated as just being from this or that bucket.  For instance, I can understand a kid who wants to transfer because he sees an opportunity for more playing time elsewhere.  Sometimes you look at the roster of the team you're on and just figure that you're likely to spend a lot of time on the bench...whereas another school has needs and minutes you could fill.  According to the current rule, this doesn't cut it.  So, instead, kids and parents have to go through a charade to explain it some other way.  Why?  Why is it not good enough to just say "I want to play soccer...but the guys who play my position here are better than I am, so I see more opportunity to play somewhere else"?

If this kid's parents agree, are they guilty of looking for the path of least resistance?  Are they guilty of living vicariously through their kids' sports?  I don't think so.  I think it's just as simple as wanting to see the field -- and I see nothing wrong with that.

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19 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

I agree that the transferring has gotten a little out of control the past few years, but the question is, do we really want an institution to be meddling this much in the lives of students? Over high school sports? Just seems a little ridiculous to me that there's investigations into kids over this kind of stuff. And the fact that some schools have tried to keep seniors out of their last year of a sport is just shameful, and frankly, downright pathetic. 

I get the impression from some of the comments here that the IHSAA and its member institutions know and care more about a kid's situation and well-being than his parents.

Don't get me wrong.  I've met some parents that I think are pretty unreasonable, too.  I've met some parents who insist that their kid is better than that kid, that coaches play favorites, that it's all politics, that my kid's entitled, etc.  So I'm not saying that every parent has the right attitudes or motivations.

But, in most cases, I'd still say that parents are better suited to determine what's best for their kids than a coach, an AD, and a principal....and certainly Paul Neidig and his gang.

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On 8/26/2022 at 6:38 AM, MHSTigerFan said:

When we (Ev Memorial) were suspended from post-season play in the early 90s for recruiting, the IHSAA allowed incoming seniors to transfer to another school without any loss of eligibility.  None did.

However, several of them said they were approached by one or more opposing coaches about transferring to their schools.

I thought that kinda summed it up pretty well.  It’s not a question of who’s crooked, it’s a question of who gets targeted and caught.  And I’ve never considered the IHSAA an honest referee for any of that.

Were any of those other schools offering the parents of those kids jobs at their car lots?

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Just now, MHSTigerFan said:

I get the impression from some of the comments here that the IHSAA and its member institutions know and care more about a kid's situation and well-being than his parents.

Don't get me wrong.  I've met some parents that I think are pretty unreasonable, too.  I've met some parents who insist that their kid is better than that kid, that coaches play favorites, that it's all politics, that my kid's entitled, etc.  So I'm not saying that every parent has the right attitudes or motivations.

But, in most cases, I'd still say that parents are better suited to determine what's best for their kids than a coach, an AD, and a principal....and certainly Paul Neidig and his gang.

Exactly. We've all seen those types of parents so no doubt they exist. But at the end of the day, it's their kid. You hit the nail on the head with that last part. 

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Just now, Wildcat1992 said:

Were any of those other schools offering the parents of those kids jobs at their car lots?

Heh.  Well, no, but neither was that the case with any of the kids who had to miss the postseason that year.  As I recall, the one instance where they found that had happened was with a kid who graduated a couple years later and never spent one day at Memorial.  He went to Henderson County in KY.  So a bunch of kids who had nothing to do with it get punished for that.

I think the IHSAA probably could've come up with a more equitable way to punish the school that didn't come down on a bunch of kids who had nothing to do with it.

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10 minutes ago, MHSTigerFan said:

There is a huge difference between those two scenarios.  There are also kids who couldn't be described by either one.

  • What about a kid whose family moves to a different location within the same city/county/area?
  • What about a kid who doesn't move, but only transfers once or twice rather than 3 or 4 times?
  • What about a kid who transfers multiples times -- but within the same school district?

In fact, I'd guess that a majority of transfers don't meet either of your scenarios.  What then?  Or are we supposed to keep the IHSAA policing all of it just because of kids who transfer 3 or 4 times?  Would you have them change the rule to accommodate 1 or 2 transfers question free?

It's obviously a case by case scenario.

A kid whose family lives in Carmel on the North Side of Indy that physically moves to say Greenwood or Whiteland should be eligible to play without any varsity restriction. This unfortunately isn't the common type of transfer though. 

A kid who lives in Fishers, attends Fishers for a year and then transfers to Noblesville 15 miles away is likely an arbitrary case. If both schools sign off on it, then the IHSAA shouldn't get involved as long as it is a one type deal. 

If you transfer a second time your varsity eligibility should be automatically rescinded for a year unless the transfer involves a physical address change that aligns with the school district the player's family is re-locating. 

The vast majority of transfers happening right now, at least in larger metropolitan areas, don't involve a physical address change however. Kid's are simply attending out of district schools and providing their own transportation. 

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4 minutes ago, Wildcat1992 said:

Were any of those other schools offering the parents of those kids jobs at their car lots?

I'd also point out that coaches approaching players from other schools about transferring is just as much against the rules.  I just always found that ironic.

The IHSAA gives us the death penalty for a season...only to result in multiple instances of tampering from coaches from other schools who got away with that scot free.

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