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Ben Mussolini

What are these advantages that private schools supposedly have?

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In the 1A championship game topic, it was stated that private schools should not be allowed to compete in 1A as they have too many "advantages"?  What are these advantages? 

Private schools have to compete not just for football players but for literally their entire student body.  The parents of these students all make sacrifices in time and money that public school parents simply do not have to make.   The parents always have the option of deciding that these sacrifices are too much and simply walking away.   There is always a public alternative that the parents have already paid for anyway with their own tax money.

The facilities at private schools are often not their own.  Covenant Christian HS uses the Zionsville West Middle School field as its home field.  In 2016, Lutheran had to move its regional game against Fountain Central to Beech Grove's field as Lutheran's old home field was simply not that good of a field.  How is playing on a field that's not your own an advantage? 

I will grant that many 1A public schools have stretched resources.  They are at least guaranteed a student body from year to year and have their own facilities rather than borrowing someone else's.  Once again, what advantages do private schools supposedly have?

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Ben Mussolini said:

In the 1A championship game topic, it was stated that private schools should not be allowed to compete in 1A as they have too many "advantages"?  What are these advantages? 

Private schools have to compete not just for football players but for literally their entire student body.  The parents of these students all make sacrifices in time and money that public school parents simply do not have to make.   The parents always have the option of deciding that these sacrifices are too much and simply walking away.   There is always a public alternative that the parents have already paid for anyway with their own tax money.

The facilities at private schools are often not their own.  Covenant Christian HS uses the Zionsville West Middle School field as its home field.  In 2016, Lutheran had to move its regional game against Fountain Central to Beech Grove's field as Lutheran's old home field was simply not that good of a field.  How is playing on a field that's not your own an advantage? 

I will grant that many 1A public schools have stretched resources.  They are at least guaranteed a student body from year to year and have their own facilities rather than borrowing someone else's.  Once again, what advantages do private schools supposedly have?

 

 

 

Private schools can recruit kids to go to school there for sports. They also don’t require a certain zone to live in for kids that want to go there, ANYBODY can go there if they wanted to.

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5 minutes ago, cg_holmeaid said:

Private schools can recruit kids to go to school there for sports. They also don’t require a certain zone to live in for kids that want to go there, ANYBODY can go there if they wanted to.

Public School can also accept out of boundary students if Family pays tuition.   Most Public schools are open I believe.   

So is it really an advantage?   

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6 minutes ago, Coach Nowlin said:

Public School can also accept out of boundary students if Family pays tuition.   Most Public schools are open I believe.   

So is it really an advantage?   

Open enrollment changed the game, right on the money @Coach Nowlin

Really the only (non location) advantage a private school COULD possibly have anymore is if the church affiliated with the school were helping them out behind the scenes....BUT this doesn't really happen. Especially in this day and age, nothing is a secret. Even if they wanted to "cheat" or "have advantages" or whatever you wanna whine about, it wouldn't go unnoticed. 

The fact is people don't like watching the Yankees, win the title. It can feel a little like that when you see an LCC or a Chatard win again. But constantly accusing them of cheating is just robbing the kids of the credit they deserve. Football is still played on the same field with the same rules.

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I feel like the greater the advantage lies in the smaller classes. It's apparent when there 3 private school state champions in Classes 1A through 4A. Most of the smaller schools lie in rural areas where, yes open enrollment exists but schools are spaced out enough that you just get the kids that are in your boundaries. Private schools typically have more money, more coaches, more players than a public school of equal classification.

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I wouldn’t call it cheating.  It’s an advantage though.  Private school parents do make a sacrifice, it’s a different level of commitment.  That translates down through the kids.  Not everyone is in a position to make that sacrifice. Also would all public school kids qualify academically? Special needs kids? These all would count towards enrollment at public schools. 

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5 minutes ago, JQWL said:

I feel like the greater the advantage lies in the smaller classes. It's apparent when there 3 private school state champions in Classes 1A through 4A. Most of the smaller schools lie in rural areas where, yes open enrollment exists but schools are spaced out enough that you just get the kids that are in your boundaries. Private schools typically have more money, more coaches, more players than a public school of equal classification.

This is the "advantage". The P/P schools that win big are in the states most populated cities: Indy, Lafayette, Evansville, Ft Wayne...... It doesn't guarantee you'll win, but the resources are there, that draw the families.

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12 minutes ago, Titan54 said:

I wouldn’t call it cheating.  It’s an advantage though.  Private school parents do make a sacrifice, it’s a different level of commitment.  That translates down through the kids.  Not everyone is in a position to make that sacrifice. Also would all public school kids qualify academically? Special needs kids? These all would count towards enrollment at public schools. 

I've always argued that special needs kids, or more specifically those that are unable to participate, should not be counted against any schools', public or private, enrollment numbers for a sport.  I'd also be fine having something in place that looks at academic qualifications and adjust for those.  If a school has a 20% academic rate that would prohibit kids from participating in sports, then I don't see a specific reason why, for sports purposes, the enrollment shouldn't reflect the number of eligible kids.  The devil would be in the implementation though that, like Success Factor, it would have to be determined at the time that enrollments were set for the two-year period.  With that said, I'm saying this for a 40,000-foot level.  As an educator, I'm not exactly happy with any situation that might "reward" for academic deficiency and I realize that a system could be potentially gamed, but I also wonder to what extent a school would flunk their students just to move down a class.  Have to think that one out a bit more.

Edited by foxbat
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21 minutes ago, Titan54 said:

If private isn’t an advantage why would parents sacrifice to send their kids there?

I’m not going to argue if it provides an advantage with sports, but I would have to assume many parents do it for the education.  Especially if they live in areas of cities that fall short on academic excellence.  When my son went to Cathedral for a non-affiliated sports club, I remember seeing a poster that said the avg GPA of all their student athletes was crazy high.  If they attract good students who are also good athletes, win-win for them.  Others might go for religious reasons.  Another group might be the ones that live in a 5/6A school district with extracurricular programs that are ultra competitive and/or they just don’t like the big school feel.  My heathen kids all went the public route.  

Edited by BigTimeDB

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23 minutes ago, Titan54 said:

If private isn’t an advantage why would parents sacrifice to send their kids there?

You're equating advantage in sports with advantages in general.  Faith Christian is a private school, yet doesn't field a football team for IHSAA.  Don't know the reasoning behind it although size and other things might be a consideration.  Nonetheless, parents send their kids there.  Some parents do it solely for the religious implications.  Some may well do it for sports.  Some might do it for smaller class sizes.  Some may do it for college prep.  Some do it because of the state of the public school system in some areas.  I recall growing up in New Orleans that over a third of the schools were private schools and that was tied heavily to, at the time, a problematic public school system.  When I moved to Texas, my parents, who are both products of Catholic school education into college, I went from attending Catholic schools to attending public schools ... the junior high right close to our house was a nationally recognized junior high. 

Their are also not set reasons either.  There are some families that are split between the public schools and Catholic schools within their own kids based on the desires/needs of the kids.  I've coached a few that started in the Catholic schools and then ended up at the public schools with their siblings or, in some cases, while their siblings still attended LCC.  I know of one family whose oldest son is in a gifted-and-talented program in the public schools, because that isn't an options in LCSS, and his two siblings attend LCSS schools.  The problem with the private/public debate, especially when it's wrapped up in discussion on a football message board, is that it's not nearly as black and white or cut-and-dry as folks would like to make seem.

BTW, for general disclosure:

  • My parents both graduated from Catholic elementary and high schools.  My mom graduated from a Catholic university.  My dad attended Catholic University in DC before leaving for the Air Force and then finished up at a public university on the GI Bill.
  • My siblings and I attended Catholic grade school until we moved to Texas when I was in junior high.  Then we attended public schools through high school.  We are also all products of public universities ... land grant schools.
  • Two of my kids attended Catholic schools until we started homeschooling them ... around 5th grade ... and their younger siblings.  I have two that are currently homeschooled, but will likely attend a public high school.  I have one who is currently full-time at at a different public high school than my youngest two will likely attend.  My oldest two attended the local public high school part-time while being homeschooled and also attending the local community college for high school. 
  • I still coach in the youth program at a private school and have for just under two decades.
Edited by foxbat

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1 hour ago, Coach Nowlin said:

Public School can also accept out of boundary students if Family pays tuition.   Most Public schools are open I believe.   

So is it really an advantage?   

Can’t schools cap their out of district students?  

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Not to be misunderstood, I’m not an anti private school person.  All the reasons listed above are valid. In our rural area it’s 40 minutes one way to the nearest private school, not much of an option unless the family moves. In the end, for whatever reason, I believe it’s an advantageous option to go private. 

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1 hour ago, Coach Nowlin said:

Public School can also accept out of boundary students if Family pays tuition.   Most Public schools are open I believe.   

So is it really an advantage?   

Not every public school accepts out of boundary kids (was told Zionsville is an example), however many do.  Webo as an example is open enrollment and actively advertises positive qualities of the school. Do they do it for sports recruiting?  No, they do it because of state funding.  Moving from 3A to 2A might be a nice benefit for sports, but administrators know exactly what each headcount is worth.  

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1 minute ago, DannEllenwood said:

Can’t schools cap their out of district students?  

Yes. Chesterton did this year. 

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I believe @Muda69 (and if I’m incorrect, I apologize) has mentioned, “how are public schools advertising/promoting themselves” to attract students?

I believe he is correct with this question. 

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34 minutes ago, Titan54 said:

If private isn’t an advantage why would parents sacrifice to send their kids there?

You think they’re shelling out this money...because of sports?

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1 minute ago, MHSTigerFan said:

You think they’re shelling out this money...because of sports?

No, I think the average private schools kids have inherent advantages.  

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1 hour ago, cg_holmeaid said:

Private schools can recruit kids to go to school there for sports. They also don’t require a certain zone to live in for kids that want to go there, ANYBODY can go there if they wanted to.

With open enrollment, any school that has open-enrollment can do so ... and more and more schools in Indiana are opting for open enrollment.  As a matter of fact, let's say that the idea of recruitment was indeed something huge going on, open-enrollment basically knocks down the advantage that would be likely for a private school.  Any public school with open enrollment would be able to tout that you could attend their school basically for "free" as opposed to, even if you could be recruited b6y a private school, they'd have to pay your entire tuition ... which isn't a good business proposition given that the vast majority of them get little external money outside of their own constituencies ... with the exclusion of vouchers.  Even in the case of vouchers, the amount is tied to what the "sending school" spends per student and is typically a percentage that doesn't cover full tuition.  The average kid across a system like LCSS would likely see, at best, and assuming only half get some type of student aid, about half of what it costs to attend the junior high and less than half what it costs to attend the high school.

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15 minutes ago, Titan54 said:

No, I think the average private schools kids have inherent advantages.  

I agree that there is potential here.  If you are a parent that is willing to send your child to a private school, I would assume that your willingness to spend time and money on out of season club sports or individual lessons might be higher than average.  That is unless you’re a volleyball parent in Delaware Co because that is the bar over in the volleyball hot-bed.  

Edited by BigTimeDB

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I think the biggest advantage comes from being able to control enrollment and not having your hallways filled with kids who don't participate in extra-curriculars.

 

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Pretty simple really.

Socioeconomic factors. Walk down the hallways at a place like Chatard and/or Memorial or any P/P,  then walk down the halls of a public school with a high free/reduced and other factors that may not be ideal for extra-curricular participation. 

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1 hour ago, Titan54 said:

No, I think the average private schools kids have inherent advantages.  

Well, that’s probably true.  But I’m not sure what it has to do with athletics.

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