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Multiplier Revised to 1.65


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Below are PP enrollments multiplied at a rate of 1.65 to achieve balance between private and public schools.

The SF would remain in place and apply to all schools

Note it has been mentioned several times this year that 4A has been marginalized due to SF movement.  Implementation of the 1.65 multiplier significantly strengthens 4A moving forward.

Under this scenario, there will be be no PPs in Class A, and none multiplied to 6A.  Clearly, the largest PPs will have an opportunity to play up to the highest level at 6A based solely on game performance  As is the case with Columbus East and Cathedral, where we have seen schools play up 2 full classifications, that opportunity remains for the best programs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Roncalli    1188/1827      5A

Cathedral   1099/1690     5A

Dwenger     1015/1561      5A

SB St Joe   857/1318         4A

Brebeuf     791/1216          4A

Guerin        761/1170         4A

Chatard      714/1098        4A

Marian        645/992        4A

Ev Memorial  609/936   4A

Ritter          566/870       4A

Luers         542/833        4A

Mater Dei    497/765        3A

Heritage Christian  462/710    3A

Bishop Noll  460/707     3A  

Scecina       427/657     3A

Andrean      414/636     3A

Covenent Christian   365/561   3A

LCC                287/441         2A

Ind Lutheran    225/346      2A

Traders Point Christian   128/196     2A

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Here is an article that shows how all the states are addressing competitive balance.   Updated in 2019.   Very interesting.   

Not sure I could support a multiplier that has a PP school playing up two classes.   If you had the 1.65 multiplier with teams only having to go up 1 class, you might have more of a chance of gettting by in.    

I believe the Success Factor is still the best solution. 

I do like how some of the states have a reverse multiplier using free and reduced lunch as the driver.   That seems fair as it addresses the heart of the social-economic advantage of P/P schools and schools in well off districts.  

https://www.cleveland.com/highschoolsports/article/ohsaas-competitive-balance-referendum-the-latest-round-in-a-national-fight-between-public-and-private-schools/

Edited by Grandpa B
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30 minutes ago, Grandpa B said:

Here is an article that shows how all the states are addressing competitive balance.   Updated in 2019.   Very interesting.   

Not sure I could support a multiplier that has a PP school playing up two classes.   If you had the 1.65 multiplier with teams only having to go up 1 class, you might have more of a chance of gettting by in.    

I believe the Success Factor is still the best solution. 

I do like how some of the states have a reverse multiplier using free and reduced lunch as the driver.   That seems fair as it addresses the heart of the social-economic advantage of P/P schools and schools in well off districts.  

https://www.cleveland.com/highschoolsports/article/ohsaas-competitive-balance-referendum-the-latest-round-in-a-national-fight-between-public-and-private-schools/

You claim to agree that PPs have several built in advantages, yet you push back on every single proposal that is designed to mitigate those advantages.

Is there no pleasing you?

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Parochials/Private play UP a class. It’s really that simple. I’ve walked the halls of a public school- I’ve walked the halls of private/parochial-  They(P/P) just have a different clientele. It’s really that simple. 

The IHSAA are just cowards when it comes to the subject. 

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2 hours ago, DT said:

You claim to agree that PPs have several built in advantages, yet you push back on every single proposal that is designed to mitigate those advantages.

Is there no pleasing you?

Did I just not say that I believe I could support PP playing up a class.  Yes I did.   Do I think the Success Factor has done its job.   But if there is a mandate for the P/P to play up a class, because of the advantages that I have said are in play, I would support.    and would also like to see a reverse multiplier based upon free and reduced lunches.  Have not seen your take on that yet. 

WIth Cathedral and Roncalli being in Class 5A with the playing up a class, can you support let's say the north/south divding line being I-70?  I have my reasons!  :)

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8 hours ago, jets said:

Parochials/Private play UP a class. It’s really that simple. I’ve walked the halls of a public school- I’ve walked the halls of private/parochial-  They(P/P) just have a different clientele. It’s really that simple. 

The IHSAA are just cowards when it comes to the subject. 

It really IS that simple, yes.  

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6 hours ago, Grandpa B said:

Did I just not say that I believe I could support PP playing up a class.  Yes I did.   Do I think the Success Factor has done its job.   But if there is a mandate for the P/P to play up a class, because of the advantages that I have said are in play, I would support.    and would also like to see a reverse multiplier based upon free and reduced lunches.  Have not seen your take on that yet. 

WIth Cathedral and Roncalli being in Class 5A with the playing up a class, can you support let's say the north/south divding line being I-70?  I have my reasons!  🙂

Im not in favor of any free and reduced lunch mechanism that is brought into this equation.  It simply complicates the matter and will result in endless overanalysis

I would also be in favor of possibly introducing an east-west split vs north -south.  You will likely get better distribution of PPs on both sides of the bracket using this method.

 

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1 hour ago, DT said:

Im not in favor of any free and reduced lunch mechanism that is brought into this equation.  It simply complicates the matter and will result in endless overanalysis

I would also be in favor of possibly introducing an east-west split vs north -south.  You will likely get better distribution of PPs on both sides of the bracket using this method.

 

You know where I stand on this...

Though, if they factored in f/r/l, it’d have to be a very small calculation.

BD (70 percent) and Warren (63 percent) don’t need to be moving anywhere.

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9 hours ago, Grandpa B said:

Did I just not say that I believe I could support PP playing up a class.  Yes I did.   Do I think the Success Factor has done its job.   But if there is a mandate for the P/P to play up a class, because of the advantages that I have said are in play, I would support.    and would also like to see a reverse multiplier based upon free and reduced lunches.  Have not seen your take on that yet. 

WIth Cathedral and Roncalli being in Class 5A with the playing up a class, can you support let's say the north/south divding line being I-70?  I have my reasons!  🙂

I have a pretty narrow focus.  When U look at 3a north over the last 2 yr cycle u see the same 3 teams (Concordia, Marian, Chatard) gobbling up sectional/regional/semi state titles and only Chatard will be affected by the success factor.  Any sort of action that would target PP schools wouldn’t fly.  Unfortunately the success factor is probably as good as we’re going to get despite it falling short of actually leveling the playing field.  
 

Now that Chatard is gone Concordia and Marian will continue to rack up titles.  dominance is just shifted to another PP until Chatard comes back in 2 years.

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East vs West

Zionsville moves up, Snider moves down. 

East: Warren Central, Noblesville, Fishers, Hamilton Southeastern, Homestead, Carroll, Lawrence North, North Central, Columbus East, Columbus North, Warsaw, Carmel, Westfield, Lawrence Central, Franklin Central, Indy Tech

West: Ben Davis, Brownsburg, Zionsville, Center Grove, Lafayette Jeff, Avon, Pike, Chesterton, Portage, Crown Point, Lake Central, Southport, Perry Meridian, Penn, Elkhart, Merrillville

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5 hours ago, temptation said:

It really IS that simple, yes.  

I agree...just bump all PP schools up a class.  CC, LCC should never be a A school.  At least 2A.  Not that these type of schools win championships every single year, but it’s definitely an advantage 

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Just now, Starfire said:

I agree...just bump all PP schools up a class.  CC, LCC should never be a A school.  At least 2A.  Not that these type of schools win championships every single year, but it’s definitely an advantage 

Just for fun and to keep the conversation rolling based on your statement.

1.  Could Covenant Christian beat Luers/WeBo tomorrow?  Sagarin says yes.

2.  Could Luers beat Chatard/Danville tomorrow?  Sagarin says no.

3.  We’ve seen Chatard already beat Roncalli.

4.  Roncalli was throttled by Cathedral but could they beat Zionsville?  Sagarin says yes.

5.  We saw that Cathedral/CG came down to one play.

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12 hours ago, jets said:

Parochials/Private play UP a class. It’s really that simple.

I argued this for weeks with Coach Gallogly in 2012 when the SF was announced (largely because I thought the SF wouldn’t result in what Publics wanted) and was a lone (REALLY LONE) voice.

I believe @Titan32 recalls me tilting at that windmill.

Now, I’m just not so sure.  Let’s be honest, this whole debate is really about a couple of schools who have for the last 25 years shown up at LOS about every couple of years or so: Cathedral and Chatard.  Then add in LCC (who’s success has been relatively recent but pretty dominant for about 10-12 years) and Dwenger and you just about have your “problem” taken care of.  Roncalli used to be one of those “problems” and it looks like they might be again.

A multiplier (or automatic “bump” dings about 30 other P/Ps who actually should not be bumped).  The SF would likely have worked better if the IHSAA had done 3 things at the time:

(1) Originally utilized a 2 point requirement versus a 4 point requirement to stay “up”.

(2) Not be so “cute” about always matching Cathedral, Chatard and Roncalli in the same sectional to get them out of the tournament making it almost impossible to get the needed 2 points to stay up.  Both Chatard and Roncalli would both likely still be “up” a class if this had not been done.  

Also not be “cute” about things like the gerrymandered Sectional 28....which permitted the travesty of Sectional 30 - better called the “Danville/TriWest Expressway to Semistate”.  It’s hard to believe grown@ss adults do shite like that.

(3) Have a “rolling” 2 year points period for the SF.

At this point, I think I like the result of the SF.  I’d never have likely seen the greatest Championship game in my lifetime (2015 Dwenger/New Pal) without it.  Several publics these last 10 years have been every bit as good as those P/Ps mentioned above - Columbus East, New Pal and Pioneer immediately come to mind.

One other side note.  I disagree with RebelDad when he says that only Cathedral could play up 2 classes.  Chatard would likely have run roughshod in 5A pre-SF...as should most anyone.   4A, pre SF, would easily have been the toughest class pound for pound there was the last 10-12 years (Cathedral, New Pal, Columbus East, Reitz, Dwenger, Roncalli...that’s a Murderer’s Row).  5A is “evolution in action” because most of those great 4A teams listed above now reside there.

So despite my earlier dislike of the SF, I’ve come around to it because it is a targeted, thoughtful and surgical approach rather than the slapdash “one size fits all” approach of an automatic bump or multiplier. 

 

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16 minutes ago, Lysander said:

I argued this for weeks with Coach Gallogly in 2012 when the SF was announced (largely because I thought the SF wouldn’t result in what Publics wanted) and was a lone (REALLY LONE) voice.

I believe @Titan32 recalls me tilting at that windmill.

Now, I’m just not so sure.  Let’s be honest, this whole debate is really about a couple of schools who have for the last 25 years shown up at LOS about every couple of years or so: Cathedral and Chatard.  Then add in LCC (who’s success has been relatively recent but pretty dominant for about 10-12 years) and Dwenger and you just about have your “problem” taken care of.  Roncalli used to be one of those “problems” and it looks like they might be again.

A multiplier (or automatic “bump” dings about 30 other P/Ps who actually should not be bumped).  The SF would likely have worked better if the IHSAA had done 3 things at the time:

(1) Originally utilized a 2 point requirement versus a 4 point requirement to stay “up”.

(2) Not be so “cute” about always matching Cathedral, Chatard and Roncalli in the same sectional to get them out of the tournament making it almost impossible to get the needed 2 points to stay up.  Both Chatard and Roncalli would both likely still be “up” a class if this had not been done.  

Also not be “cute” about things like the gerrymandered Sectional 28....which permitted the travesty of Sectional 30 - better called the “Danville/TriWest Expressway to Semistate”.  It’s hard to believe grown@ss adults do shite like that.

(3) Have a “rolling” 2 year points period for the SF.

At this point, I think I like the result of the SF.  I’d never have likely seen the greatest Championship game in my lifetime (2015 Dwenger/New Pal) without it.  Several publics these last 10 years have been every bit as good as those P/Ps mentioned above - Columbus East, New Pal and Pioneer immediately come to mind.

One other side note.  I disagree with RebelDad when he says that only Cathedral could play up 2 classes.  Chatard would likely have run roughshod in 5A pre-SF...as should most anyone.   4A, pre SF, would easily have been the toughest class pound for pound there was the last 10-12 years (Cathedral, New Pal, Columbus East, Reitz, Dwenger, Roncalli...that’s a Murderer’s Row).  5A is “evolution in action” because most of those great 4A teams listed above now reside there.

So despite my earlier dislike of the SF, I’ve come around to it because it is a targeted, thoughtful and surgical approach rather than the slapdash “one size fits all” approach of an automatic bump or multiplier. 

 

Excellent post.   Well thought out.   We will have to agree to disagree about Chatard playing up 2 classes.   While I think there are been short periods of time that Chatard and Roncalli might have been able to play up two classes, I strongly believe that only Cathedral has shown the staying power to play up 2 classes.  From what I understand, Chatard will be "down" the next couple of years and back in 3A in two years.    I like what the SF has accomplished.   Was surprised at how many states have neither a SF or multiplier.   I

https://www.cleveland.com/highschoolsports/article/ohsaas-competitive-balance-referendum-the-latest-round-in-a-national-fight-between-public-and-private-schools/

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54 minutes ago, BTF said:

 

East vs West

Zionsville moves up, Snider moves down. 

East: Warren Central, Noblesville, Fishers, Hamilton Southeastern, Homestead, Carroll, Lawrence North, North Central, Columbus East, Columbus North, Warsaw, Carmel, Westfield, Lawrence Central, Franklin Central, Indy Tech

West: Ben Davis, Brownsburg, Zionsville, Center Grove, Lafayette Jeff, Avon, Pike, Chesterton, Portage, Crown Point, Lake Central, Southport, Perry Meridian, Penn, Elkhart, Merrillville

I have always been intrigued by this and it would actually work at the 6A level because of the lack of sourhwest Indiana teams.  
 

At the five levels below, it would never fly.  A 5A semi-state between Michigan City and Castle would be asinine.  Countless other examples.

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21 minutes ago, temptation said:

I have always been intrigued by this and it would actually work at the 6A level because of the lack of sourhwest Indiana teams.  
 

At the five levels below, it would never fly.  A 5A semi-state between Michigan City and Castle would be asinine.  Countless other examples.

Not if we went neutral site semi state games as they should be

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7 minutes ago, temptation said:

I have always been intrigued by this and it would actually work at the 6A level because of the lack of sourhwest Indiana teams.  
 

At the five levels below, it would never fly.  A 5A semi-state between Michigan City and Castle would be asinine.  Countless other examples.

I would be on board with it. East vs West looks pretty balanced. Only three times in the last sixteen years has the north produced a team that could rumble with Indy's best from within a touchdown. Both Snider and Penn in 2015. Snider in 2004. One could also argue Valpo and Dwenger in 2019, but that was 5a. 

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23 minutes ago, temptation said:

I have always been intrigued by this and it would actually work at the 6A level because of the lack of sourhwest Indiana teams.  
 

At the five levels below, it would never fly.  A 5A semi-state between Michigan City and Castle would be asinine.  Countless other examples.

Agree completely. 6A would be the only class it would work for. 
 

2A - Luers vs WeBo and Mater Dei vs Pioneer

3A - Southridge vs Chatard and Mish Marian vs Danville 

4A - Hobart vs Mooresville and Roncalli vs Marion

Imagine you could have had Evansville Central and Hobart being a semi-state matchup. Crazy.

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30 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

Agree completely. 6A would be the only class it would work for. 
 

2A - Luers vs WeBo and Mater Dei vs Pioneer

3A - Southridge vs Chatard and Mish Marian vs Danville 

4A - Hobart vs Mooresville and Roncalli vs Marion

Imagine you could have had Evansville Central and Hobart being a semi-state matchup. Crazy.

Indiana’s more top to bottom than side to side.

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Then again you could have it like the North Central Conference with Jeff, Harrison, & McCutcheon the the west and Marion, Muncie, & Richmond in the East—alternate Kokomo and Logansport as East and West.

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1 hour ago, Whiting89 said:

Ding ding.  There you go.  Was wondering how long it would take for someone to say but them (P/Ps) in their own tournament.  No SF, No multiplier, No Reverse multiplier, - just exclude them from the rest of us.   Texas is a world apart from Indiana when it comes to High School Football.  

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39 minutes ago, Grandpa B said:

Ding ding.  There you go.  Was wondering how long it would take for someone to say but them (P/Ps) in their own tournament.  No SF, No multiplier, No Reverse multiplier, - just exclude them from the rest of us.   Texas is a world apart from Indiana when it comes to High School Football.  

We are now hours away from P/P’s going 5 for 6 in terms of state championships and you’re still in denial?

I agree that a separate tournament is not the solution but something is not working when over 400 schools start the tournament and these schools are cleaning house despite being in the minority in terms of numbers of schools.

We can go on all day about the “why” but the facts are staring us right in the face.

And as I mentioned above, you could make the argument Cathedral could win 6A, the only school standing between Roncalli and Chatard winning 5A IS Cathedral and Sagarin says Covenant Christian would be favored in 2A and hold their own in 3A despite being in its infancy as a program.

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9 minutes ago, temptation said:

We are now hours away from P/P’s going 5 for 6 in terms of state championships and you’re still in denial?

I agree that a separate tournament is not the solution but something is not working when over 400 schools start the tournament and these schools are cleaning house despite being in the minority in terms of numbers of schools.

We can go on all day about the “why” but the facts are staring us right in the face.

And as I mentioned above, you could make the argument Cathedral could win 6A, the only school standing between Roncalli and Chatard winning 5A IS Cathedral and Sagarin says Covenant Christian would be favored in 2A and hold their own in 3A despite being in its infancy as a program.

Denial?  Have you read any of my post?.  I have said a hundred times on this site that PP have an advantage and i would support the one class bump up.  Would I prefer to see the SF stay in place?  Yes.  Support playing up a class?  Yes.   What part of this puts me in denial.   Try and be specific if that is even possible. 

And I agree with most of your last sentence.   I think Cathedral could take CG this year with a 2nd try.  Would be a great game.   CC might hold their own in 2A but no way in 3A.  No way.  They would get crushed by most of the top teams in 3A.  

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