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Multiplier Revised to 1.65


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6 hours ago, temptation said:

Just for fun and to keep the conversation rolling based on your statement.

1.  Could Covenant Christian beat Luers/WeBo tomorrow?  Sagarin says yes.

2.  Could Luers beat Chatard/Danville tomorrow?  Sagarin says no.

3.  We’ve seen Chatard already beat Roncalli.

4.  Roncalli was throttled by Cathedral but could they beat Zionsville?  Sagarin says yes.

5.  We saw that Cathedral/CG came down to one play.

Didn't Sargins also say Cathedral would beat Castle by 50? I've seen a few of these teams play. I'm going to say Sargins is wrong. 

 

I realize Cathedral has a very special team this year and overall a heck of a program, but let's not act like they could compete with 6A, year in/ year out. How'd 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2019 go? Some of those playoff losses weren't close games. Cathedral has a heck of a program and most years are exactly where they belong in 5A. I also don't think we should punish some, because of success of others. 

As far as an individual tournament, what kind of competitive person would want that? You're too good, so go play on your own? As a public school, you finally win a state championship, would you really feel like you're the "best" team? I would love to hear the debates on here about how this public school could beat that PP school, but only if they played. 

 

Edit: To be clear I'm not trying to speak badly of Cathedral. I think they are the standard, that's why I continued to use them as my example.

Edited by vicvinegar
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17 minutes ago, PHJIrish said:

Multiplier is fine at 0.0!

Approximately 20 percent of the P/P schools that started the IHSAA tournament are playing this weekend, lol...and it would be more if it weren’t for them eliminating one another.

Lutheran, LCC, Brebeuf, Guerin Catholic, Concordia, and Mishawaka Marian all lost to fellow P/P schools.

Of course you don’t think there is a problem...though even if your beloved Irish were a permanent 5A fixture, they’d still win the whole thing more often than not.

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5 minutes ago, vicvinegar said:

Didn't Sargins also say Cathedral would beat Castle by 50? I've seen a few of these teams play. I'm going to say Sargins is wrong. 

 

I realize Cathedral has a very special team this year and overall a heck of a program, but let's not act like they could compete with 6A, year in/ year out. How'd 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2019 go? Some of those playoff losses weren't close games. Cathedral has a heck of a program and most years are exactly where they belong in 5A. I also don't think we should punish some, because of success of others. 

As far as an individual tournament, what kind of competitive person would want that? You're too good, so go play on your own? As a public school, you finally win a state championship, would you really feel like you're the "best" team? I would love to hear the debates on here about how this public school could beat that PP school, but only if they played. 

1.  Sagarin must not have called Peebles and told him the spread because from the sound of it, Cathedral went up four possessions in the first half and then put it in cruise control.  
 

Really bizarre example/attempted flex.  I will say that Sagarin has been fairly inaccurate this year compared to most due to Covid unpredictability on a week to week basis.

2.  Cathedral would not be asked to compete in 6A with the automatic bump.  They are 4A by enrollment so they’d be a permanent fixture in 5A.

Edited by temptation
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I have an alternative,   why don't we set up another organization for schools who need interference and interjection in order to feel competitive?  Muda and DT could be the directors of said organization and the rest of us could keep playing in the big boys league.

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7 hours ago, Lysander said:

I argued this for weeks with Coach Gallogly in 2012 when the SF was announced (largely because I thought the SF wouldn’t result in what Publics wanted) and was a lone (REALLY LONE) voice.

I believe @Titan32 recalls me tilting at that windmill.

Now, I’m just not so sure.  Let’s be honest, this whole debate is really about a couple of schools who have for the last 25 years shown up at LOS about every couple of years or so: Cathedral and Chatard.  Then add in LCC (who’s success has been relatively recent but pretty dominant for about 10-12 years) and Dwenger and you just about have your “problem” taken care of.  Roncalli used to be one of those “problems” and it looks like they might be again.

A multiplier (or automatic “bump” dings about 30 other P/Ps who actually should not be bumped).  The SF would likely have worked better if the IHSAA had done 3 things at the time:

(1) Originally utilized a 2 point requirement versus a 4 point requirement to stay “up”.

(2) Not be so “cute” about always matching Cathedral, Chatard and Roncalli in the same sectional to get them out of the tournament making it almost impossible to get the needed 2 points to stay up.  Both Chatard and Roncalli would both likely still be “up” a class if this had not been done.  

Also not be “cute” about things like the gerrymandered Sectional 28....which permitted the travesty of Sectional 30 - better called the “Danville/TriWest Expressway to Semistate”.  It’s hard to believe grown@ss adults do shite like that.

(3) Have a “rolling” 2 year points period for the SF.

At this point, I think I like the result of the SF.  I’d never have likely seen the greatest Championship game in my lifetime (2015 Dwenger/New Pal) without it.  Several publics these last 10 years have been every bit as good as those P/Ps mentioned above - Columbus East, New Pal and Pioneer immediately come to mind.

One other side note.  I disagree with RebelDad when he says that only Cathedral could play up 2 classes.  Chatard would likely have run roughshod in 5A pre-SF...as should most anyone.   4A, pre SF, would easily have been the toughest class pound for pound there was the last 10-12 years (Cathedral, New Pal, Columbus East, Reitz, Dwenger, Roncalli...that’s a Murderer’s Row).  5A is “evolution in action” because most of those great 4A teams listed above now reside there.

So despite my earlier dislike of the SF, I’ve come around to it because it is a targeted, thoughtful and surgical approach rather than the slapdash “one size fits all” approach of an automatic bump or multiplier. 

 

I will also admit that my buddy Don Quixote and I think that SF isn't all that bad.  I agree on the rolling two year adjustment.  It's just nuts that the degree to which a team is governed relies on which year of the two year cycle they had success...that is really really dumb.

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1 hour ago, temptation said:

Outside of the fan bases involved, I am not sure I can remember less excitement state wide about a November Thanksgiving weekend in Indy.

Part of that is due to the fact that most view at least 4/6 games as a formality.

This is true, if it was for the DT haters the site would be still!

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1 hour ago, temptation said:

Outside of the fan bases involved, I am not sure I can remember less excitement state wide about a November Thanksgiving weekend in Indy.

Part of that is due to the fact that most view at least 4/6 games as a formality.

Yeah from afar it seems like the northwest Indiana media is barely covering Hobart because they know they have no chance 

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8 hours ago, Lysander said:

I argued this for weeks with Coach Gallogly in 2012 when the SF was announced (largely because I thought the SF wouldn’t result in what Publics wanted) and was a lone (REALLY LONE) voice.

I believe @Titan32 recalls me tilting at that windmill.

Now, I’m just not so sure.  Let’s be honest, this whole debate is really about a couple of schools who have for the last 25 years shown up at LOS about every couple of years or so: Cathedral and Chatard.  Then add in LCC (who’s success has been relatively recent but pretty dominant for about 10-12 years) and Dwenger and you just about have your “problem” taken care of.  Roncalli used to be one of those “problems” and it looks like they might be again.

A multiplier (or automatic “bump” dings about 30 other P/Ps who actually should not be bumped).  The SF would likely have worked better if the IHSAA had done 3 things at the time:

(1) Originally utilized a 2 point requirement versus a 4 point requirement to stay “up”.

(2) Not be so “cute” about always matching Cathedral, Chatard and Roncalli in the same sectional to get them out of the tournament making it almost impossible to get the needed 2 points to stay up.  Both Chatard and Roncalli would both likely still be “up” a class if this had not been done.  

Also not be “cute” about things like the gerrymandered Sectional 28....which permitted the travesty of Sectional 30 - better called the “Danville/TriWest Expressway to Semistate”.  It’s hard to believe grown@ss adults do shite like that.

(3) Have a “rolling” 2 year points period for the SF.

At this point, I think I like the result of the SF.  I’d never have likely seen the greatest Championship game in my lifetime (2015 Dwenger/New Pal) without it.  Several publics these last 10 years have been every bit as good as those P/Ps mentioned above - Columbus East, New Pal and Pioneer immediately come to mind.

One other side note.  I disagree with RebelDad when he says that only Cathedral could play up 2 classes.  Chatard would likely have run roughshod in 5A pre-SF...as should most anyone.   4A, pre SF, would easily have been the toughest class pound for pound there was the last 10-12 years (Cathedral, New Pal, Columbus East, Reitz, Dwenger, Roncalli...that’s a Murderer’s Row).  5A is “evolution in action” because most of those great 4A teams listed above now reside there.

So despite my earlier dislike of the SF, I’ve come around to it because it is a targeted, thoughtful and surgical approach rather than the slapdash “one size fits all” approach of an automatic bump or multiplier. 

 

While good in theory, the SF publishes PUBLIC schools who, like it or not, do not have the inherent advantages that P/P's do. Again, it's really that simple.

While I agree with your premise in that really the SF rose with the Cathedral's and Chatards and Luers of the world, it has conversely affected classes in PUBLIC schools who really, had no impact on the success of their previous classmates. Your approach I believe is a little to "narrow" in scope- focused solely on the "big dogs"  of the football world so-to-speak. 

There are Mater Dei's of the world...the Memorial's...the Guernin Catholics, etc...that are still playing with a "loaded deck of cards" in comparison to their public school counterparts. It is just the facts of the matter. 

Playing up a class is the simplest and easiest solution - but as stated previously - the IHSAA will never/doesn't have the guts to pull that trigger. 

 

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7 hours ago, Whiting89 said:

There are also 26 PP schools in 6A alone in Texas and another 35 in 5A alone.  Indiana doesn't have a single school that qualifies as 5A / 6A.  As a matter of fact, compared to Indiana, Texas PP schools number more than 50% of Indiana's total numbers with public and PP combined.

4 hours ago, temptation said:

Automatic one class bump sounds good.  I know it would punish some schools but they’d figure a way step their game up.

That's an interesting idea.  So what we are saying is that PPs will figure a way to step their game up, but if you are a public school, you are incapable of being able to step up your game?

4 hours ago, Grandpa B said:

Denial?  Have you read any of my post?.  I have said a hundred times on this site that PP have an advantage and i would support the one class bump up.  Would I prefer to see the SF stay in place?  Yes.  Support playing up a class?  Yes.   What part of this puts me in denial.   Try and be specific if that is even possible. 

And I agree with most of your last sentence.   I think Cathedral could take CG this year with a 2nd try.  Would be a great game.   CC might hold their own in 2A but no way in 3A.  No way.  They would get crushed by most of the top teams in 3A.  

Based on this year and last year, perhaps, but based on their history, I'm not sure that this year is indicative of where they will be long-term.  after all, we are only talking about six seasons worth of data points.  Folks said the same thing last season after TPCH showed up in its 2nd sectional championship game in two years.  They've been around for 8 seasons now and their records are:

  • 2020
  • 2019 9-2
  • 2018 10-2
  • 2017 5-4
  • 2016 4-5
  • 2015 3-6
  • 2014 0-9
  • 2013 0-8

Incidentally, by comparison, TPCS all-time record compared to a couple of different 1A programs:

  • Frontier: 2-3
  • Edinburgh: 2-2
  • Indiana Deaf: 1-5
  • Clinton Prairie: 1-1
  • Dugger Union: 3-2
  • Oldenberg Academy: 0-2
  • Park Tudor: 2-1

 

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13 hours ago, DT said:

Im not in favor of any free and reduced lunch mechanism that is brought into this equation.  It simply complicates the matter and will result in endless overanalysis

I would also be in favor of possibly introducing an east-west split vs north -south.  You will likely get better distribution of PPs on both sides of the bracket using this method.

 

I'm not really seeing this as being legit.  Look, you are making a claim about the advantages of PP based on socio-economic reasons and plenty of qualitative things that can't accurately be measured even if inferences might point in a direction.  If there's anything that has a pretty good set of metrics attached to it, including success rates in schools, likely drug addiction, ability to get admissions to college, etc. the free/reduced lunch numbers would be one of the items.  They are also a metric that tends to be easily applied, in set form, across ALL schools.  Myself, I like imposing something tied to performance, but if we are going to instead hit folks with something to bump them up as a "predictive item," would it make more sense to tie it to a fairly easily-measurable item? 

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3 hours ago, temptation said:

Approximately 20 percent of the P/P schools that started the IHSAA tournament are playing this weekend, lol...and it would be more if it weren’t for them eliminating one another.

Lutheran, LCC, Brebeuf, Guerin Catholic, Concordia, and Mishawaka Marian all lost to fellow P/P schools.

Of course you don’t think there is a problem...though even if your beloved Irish were a permanent 5A fixture, they’d still win the whole thing more often than not.

LCC lost to SouthAdams.  I know they are in Amish Country, but I don't think South Adams considers themselves private.  By the way, LCC didn't just lose to South Adams, they were BEAT by SouthAdams.  Some folks go to jail for that kind of beating.

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3 hours ago, Brettlow said:

I have an alternative,   why don't we set up another organization for schools who need interference and interjection in order to feel competitive?  Muda and DT could be the directors of said organization and the rest of us could keep playing in the big boys league.

In all seriousness, that's not a bad idea.  It'd be like having a rec league and a travel league.  If you want to be in the competitive league, then you sign up in that one.  if you just want to play without the "pressures" of competition, then you sign up for the other one.  That way there's no "forcing" anyone up, out, or to be in a league of just a small group.  The deicision would be made by the program itself which would be the ultimate level of self-determination.

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9 hours ago, jets said:

While good in theory, the SF publishes PUBLIC schools who, like it or not, do not have the inherent advantages that P/P's do. Again, it's really that simple.

Playing up a class is the simplest and easiest solution - but as stated previously - the IHSAA will never/doesn't have the guts to pull that trigger. 

“Simple” and “easy” are great ... if you’re talking about puzzles. But that doesn’t mean they are “best.” The “best” solution is one that can be implemented easily, sure, but it also should address the problem, and fix it with the fewest negative consequences, i. e., collateral damage. 

The SF doesn’t “punish” anyone (I think that’s the word you meant to use.). But I understand how using loaded words like that serves your agenda.

The SF is an attempt to go right to the “problem” and fix it at the root, not use a broad, non-specific remedy that accomplishes the purpose, in part, but throws out a lot of babies with the bathwater..

The complaint people have about the PPs is that the playing field is not level. But even the most rabid anti-PPers have to admit that some PPs do not use their inherent advantages to achieve football success. If the objective of the class system is for like opponents to be matched (within reason), then only those who use advantages, and are therefore not “like” their other class members should be targeted. That’s what the SF does, and that’s what a multiplier doesn’t do.

And logically, there is no justification for not using the SF on publics as well. No one would seriously argue that publics like Munster & Carmel don’t have a significant socioeconomic advantage over fellow publics that translates to higher extracurricular participation rates, better facilities, and if you want to dig deeper, probably better nutrition and health care. Those that utilize these advantages to excell over the long term in football are no more “like” their fellow publics than are the PPs. If they show that they have had disproportionate success relative to their class competition, then obviously they have tilted the playing field. If the goal is “like” vs. “like,” they also should be affected by whatever tool you are using to level the playing field.

If your goal is to “level the playing field” as much as possible, then the SF is a far superior solution. On the other hand, if your goal is simply to slap down the damn Catholics, the multiplier is for you. Just adjust the multiplier till you get to the point where the PPs are winning championships at the same rate as the publics, regardless of the consequences to those PPs like Bishop Noll and Park Tudor.  Simple and easy, sure. But fair? I don’t think so.

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8 hours ago, foxbat said:

LCC lost to SouthAdams.  I know they are in Amish Country, but I don't think South Adams considers themselves private.  By the way, LCC didn't just lose to South Adams, they were BEAT by SouthAdams.  Some folks go to jail for that kind of beating.

Oops, good call.  

9 hours ago, foxbat said:

There are also 26 PP schools in 6A alone in Texas and another 35 in 5A alone.  Indiana doesn't have a single school that qualifies as 5A / 6A.  As a matter of fact, compared to Indiana, Texas PP schools number more than 50% of Indiana's total numbers with public and PP combined.

That's an interesting idea.  So what we are saying is that PPs will figure a way to step their game up, but if you are a public school, you are incapable of being able to step up your game?

Based on this year and last year, perhaps, but based on their history, I'm not sure that this year is indicative of where they will be long-term.  after all, we are only talking about six seasons worth of data points.  Folks said the same thing last season after TPCH showed up in its 2nd sectional championship game in two years.  They've been around for 8 seasons now and their records are:

  • 2020
  • 2019 9-2
  • 2018 10-2
  • 2017 5-4
  • 2016 4-5
  • 2015 3-6
  • 2014 0-9
  • 2013 0-8

Incidentally, by comparison, TPCS all-time record compared to a couple of different 1A programs:

  • Frontier: 2-3
  • Edinburgh: 2-2
  • Indiana Deaf: 1-5
  • Clinton Prairie: 1-1
  • Dugger Union: 3-2
  • Oldenberg Academy: 0-2
  • Park Tudor: 2-1

 

Oh, public schools “can” also up their game but it’s a much steeper hill.

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Thanks @Bobref You saved me about an hour of typing and I would have only said it half as well.  

“Simplicity” implies simple-mindedness to me and an inability to hold more than 1 concept/idea in one’s head at the same time.  The “problem” is a lot more nuanced than the solution proffered.

The only additional thought I have is that excluding successful Publics from the scenario seems well...to be polite....self-serving.  

Dare I say hypocritical?  

Some want all of the benefits with no view toward fairness.  Again, I will mention Columbus East and New Pal who have shown they “should” be moved up and have thrived....and seem to have taken pride in their success.  Alternately, I’ve noted specifically one or so posters from Southridge this year who have constantly lamented (at almost every instance) that they are 2A in size yet playing in 3A....but the reality of that team making it to the final 4 in 3A makes it clear that the SF ACTUALLY WORKED in the case of Southridge and they are exactly where they belonged this year.

Some of the foibles (and a failing) of the SF such as WeBo playing for 3 straight Championships because of how the “cycles” fell is easily fixable per “rolling” cycles.

Per my own wishes, I WANT Chatard in 4A (and have said so for MANY years here).  But to move everyone else up simply because I want Chatard to move up (or think they should be in 4A) is unfair to all those teams that have no business being moved up.  I also like the fact that the opportunity to move up even further than 1 class exists currently via the SF.

Its also been mentioned here recently that there is somehow a lack of fervor for the championships this year...because of the P/Ps.  First, the only evidence offered is solely anecdotal or simply opinion.  Second, just how can any definitive statement be made about this in the year of COVID?  Unless things have changed in the last month or so, most sports viewership have been in the tank these last 6 months.  Finally, if there truly IS a measurable lack of fervor, just why is it laid at the feet of P/Ps?   I thought football was dying in general per some here via their almost gleeful pronouncements as to the health of the game.

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13 hours ago, temptation said:

Cathedral would not be asked to compete in 6A with the automatic bump.  They are 4A by enrollment so they’d be a permanent fixture in 5A.

Haven't they been a permanent fixture in 5A/6A since the start of the SF? So why would punish St. Joseph because of the success of others? 

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1 hour ago, Lysander said:

Thanks @Bobref You saved me about an hour of typing and I would have only said it half as well.  

“Simplicity” implies simple-mindedness to me and an inability to hold more than 1 concept/idea in one’s head at the same time.  The “problem” is a lot more nuanced than the solution proffered.

The only additional thought I have is that excluding successful Publics from the scenario seems well...to be polite....self-serving.  

Dare I say hypocritical?  

Some want all of the benefits with no view toward fairness.  Again, I will mention Columbus East and New Pal who have shown they “should” be moved up and have thrived....and seem to have taken pride in their success.  Alternately, I’ve noted specifically one or so posters from Southridge this year who have constantly lamented (at almost every instance) that they are 2A in size yet playing in 3A....but the reality of that team making it to the final 4 in 3A makes it clear that the SF ACTUALLY WORKED in the case of Southridge and they are exactly where they belonged this year.

Some of the foibles (and a failing) of the SF such as WeBo playing for 3 straight Championships because of how the “cycles” fell is easily fixable per “rolling” cycles.

Per my own wishes, I WANT Chatard in 4A (and have said so for MANY years here).  But to move everyone else up simply because I want Chatard to move up (or think they should be in 4A) is unfair to all those teams that have no business being moved up.  I also like the fact that the opportunity to move up even further than 1 class exists currently via the SF.

Its also been mentioned here recently that there is somehow a lack of fervor for the championships this year...because of the P/Ps.  First, the only evidence offered is solely anecdotal or simply opinion.  Second, just how can any definitive statement be made about this in the year of COVID?  Unless things have changed in the last month or so, most sports viewership have been in the tank these last 6 months.  Finally, if there truly IS a measurable lack of fervor, just why is it laid at the feet of P/Ps?   I thought football was dying in general per some here via their almost gleeful pronouncements as to the health of the game.

1.  We must have differing definitions of “thriving.”  I’m sure that the term “thriving” was the last thing on the minds of the Columbus East folks in the second quarter of the sectional title game at Center Grove.

2.  The suggestion that P/P’s being asked to   play up may seem a bit hypocritical but, especially at the small school level, their ability to “reload” quickly compared to their public school counterparts cannot be ignored.  There are exceptions such as Pioneer and WeBo but they are the exception and not the rule.

3.  Southridge is a good example but I’m not sure that a three possession beat down at the hands of the team most expect to TAKE a three possession beat down in the 3A title game this weekend is the evidence you want to cite.  I think Southridge vs WeBo would be one hell of a matchup this weekend...especially when you use Danville as a common opponent to compare them.  I’m sure those Southridge posters will be watching the 3A game tomorrow with their heads held high...🙄

4.  Yes, Covid is the great unknown.  There is no way to statistically measure its impact on interest and the P/P’s should not have to apologize for anything.  They are simply using the system in place to their advantage.  I’ve made my stance on their advantages known and it’s not “recruiting.”  I guess we can take a look at the streaming numbers and cable viewers to get a better outlook.  I’d expect those numbers to be higher with the in person limitations placed on ticket sales.

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1 hour ago, vicvinegar said:

Haven't they been a permanent fixture in 5A/6A since the start of the SF? So why would punish St. Joseph because of the success of others? 

Agreed.  I think this goes to some of the stuff that others have been saying as well about SF eventually shaking things out assuming that:

  • It gets a longer time window ... say four years compared to two.  The longer time window would serve a purpose two ways.
    • It would make it less likely that a class would push a team up as opposed to program success being the catalyst.  I think this would go a long way toward dampening the complaints of some folks that don't like SF because the class-after feels the brunt of the class-before's success.  In a sense you would get rid of some of the "false positives" that might push a team.
    • It would have less yo-yo effect for teams going up and down and there would be more opportunity for permanency.  This would be the opposite of the class-after bearing the brunt of the class-before, but would be more focused on the classification group.  That is, the lack of performance from a school's class is much less impactful in moving a school back down with a four-year window than with a two-year.
  • It's done on a rolling basis as opposed to a fixed cycle.  This would get rid of situations like WeBo where a team could win two back-to-back titles in consecutive years. 
  • Folks don't get "cute" with scheduling teams.  Matter of fact, I think it would highly behoove the IHSAA to have an add-on to the way that they implement SF in that, when teams move up, they ARE NOT assigned to a section which has another team with SF implications.  We've discussed in another thread that. with LCC moving up to 2A, there's potentially a chance for Pioneer and LCC to meet again, but in 2A.  If the IHSAA gets cute and assigns LCC and Pioneer to the same sectional they are GUARANTEEING that one or both could be back down in 1A by the next cycle via the following scenarios:
    • Pioneer wins sectional in first year, LCC in the next.  Both lose regional both years.  At end of the cycle, both move down to 1A.
    • LCC wins sectional in first year, Pioneer in the next.  Both lose regional both years.  At end of the cycle, both move down to 1A.
    • LCC wins sectional in both years and Pioneer moves down to 1A.
    • Pioneer wins section both years and LCC moves down to 1A.
  • Implications for not getting cute and doing the more sensible/though-out thing of putting LCC and Pioneer in different regions gives both an opportunity to win back-to-back sections and both to stay up or both to lose a sectional and win a regional and both stay up ... that's what will happen to Pioneer this cycle.  This scenario though CAN'T happen if you get cute and put LCC and Pioneer in the same sectional.  This would also be the case if Roncalli and Cathedral both end up in 5A together or a situation where Chatard and Roncalli end up in the same class together.  Being cute plays well in the current, but it short-circuits the long-term, more desired results.
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Lysander’s first post really ended this discussion. The Success Factor is the most practical way of solving “competitive balance”. Bumping Park Tudor and Bishop Noll up a class because Cathedral and Chatard are good at football doesn’t make any sense. Let Cathedral and Chatard bump up (because they’re good) due to the success factor and let Noll and Park Tudor continue to try and compete in their enrollment based class. 

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1 hour ago, temptation said:

1.  We must have differing definitions of “thriving.”  I’m sure that the term “thriving” was the last thing on the minds of the Columbus East folks in the second quarter of the sectional title game at Center Grove.

2.  The suggestion that P/P’s being asked to   play up may seem a bit hypocritical but, especially at the small school level, their ability to “reload” quickly compared to their public school counterparts cannot be ignored.  There are exceptions such as Pioneer and WeBo but they are the exception and not the rule.

3.  Southridge is a good example but I’m not sure that a three possession beat down at the hands of the team most expect to TAKE a three possession beat down in the 3A title game this weekend is the evidence you want to cite.  I think Southridge vs WeBo would be one hell of a matchup this weekend...especially when you use Danville as a common opponent to compare them.  I’m sure those Southridge posters will be watching the 3A game tomorrow with their heads held high...🙄

4.  Yes, Covid is the great unknown.  There is no way to statistically measure its impact on interest and the P/P’s should not have to apologize for anything.  They are simply using the system in place to their advantage.  I’ve made my stance on their advantages known and it’s not “recruiting.”  I guess we can take a look at the streaming numbers and cable viewers to get a better outlook.  I’d expect those numbers to be higher with the in person limitations placed on ticket sales.

This statement has been echoed over and over, but I'm interested in the "operational" aspect of this. 

A team like LCC, e.g., missed out on playing four games this season due to its own COVID struggles.  TPCS lost an opportunity to play for a sectional championship due directly or indirectly to COVID.  I'm assuming that Rock Creek Academy is either a charter or PP based on the name, but they had to pull out of sectionals too.  Indiana Deaf and SouthSideHomeschool had their game cancelled because of COVID ... I believe the school hit was Indiana Deaf because Southside rescheduled that same week.  Northwest HomeSchool at Lake Station also had their game cancelled.  AndersonPrepAcademy had its game cancelled with WesDel ... WesDel rescheduled the same week, so the school hit was likely AndsersonPrep.  Central Christian Academy at Anderson Prep Academy.  Phalen Academy at Park Tudor.  Union (Dugger) at Indiana Deaf.  Anderson Prep Academy at Traders Point Christian.Indiana Deaf at Anderson Prep Academy.  Phalen Academy at Indianapolis Scecina. Traders Point Christian at South Newton. Rock Creek Academy at Indiana Deaf.  Center Christian at Park Tudor.  Union (Dugger) at Anderson Prep Academy.  Indiana Deaf at North Central (Farmersburg).  Union (Dugger) at Southside HomeSchool.  Covenant Christian at Traders Point Christian.  Indiana Deaf at South Decatur.  Park Tudor at Anderson Prep Academy.  Park Tudor at Madison-Grant.  Union (Dugger) at Rock Creek Academy.  Anderson Prep Academy at Frontier.  Noblesville HomeSchool at Traders Point Christian.  Purdue Poly at Indiana Deaf. 

 

And these are all just 1A ... with the exception of when Phalen cancelled with 2A Scecina.  One other fairly glaring item that I notice in this list as well.  There's A LOT of teams in this list that I'm pretty sure most folks didn't even know existed in 1A and, even if they knew existed in 1A have NEVER been in the conversation about SF, championships, "unfair advantage," etc. who would all be swept up in a multiplier. 

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22 minutes ago, foxbat said:

This statement has been echoed over and over, but I'm interested in the "operational" aspect of this. 

A team like LCC, e.g., missed out on playing four games this season due to its own COVID struggles.  TPCS lost an opportunity to play for a sectional championship due directly or indirectly to COVID.  I'm assuming that Rock Creek Academy is either a charter or PP based on the name, but they had to pull out of sectionals too.  Indiana Deaf and SouthSideHomeschool had their game cancelled because of COVID ... I believe the school hit was Indiana Deaf because Southside rescheduled that same week.  Northwest HomeSchool at Lake Station also had their game cancelled.  AndersonPrepAcademy had its game cancelled with WesDel ... WesDel rescheduled the same week, so the school hit was likely AndsersonPrep.  Central Christian Academy at Anderson Prep Academy.  Phalen Academy at Park Tudor.  Union (Dugger) at Indiana Deaf.  Anderson Prep Academy at Traders Point Christian.Indiana Deaf at Anderson Prep Academy.  Phalen Academy at Indianapolis Scecina. Traders Point Christian at South Newton. Rock Creek Academy at Indiana Deaf.  Center Christian at Park Tudor.  Union (Dugger) at Anderson Prep Academy.  Indiana Deaf at North Central (Farmersburg).  Union (Dugger) at Southside HomeSchool.  Covenant Christian at Traders Point Christian.  Indiana Deaf at South Decatur.  Park Tudor at Anderson Prep Academy.  Park Tudor at Madison-Grant.  Union (Dugger) at Rock Creek Academy.  Anderson Prep Academy at Frontier.  Noblesville HomeSchool at Traders Point Christian.  Purdue Poly at Indiana Deaf. 

 

And these are all just 1A ... with the exception of when Phalen cancelled with 2A Scecina.  One other fairly glaring item that I notice in this list as well.  There's A LOT of teams in this list that I'm pretty sure most folks didn't even know existed in 1A and, even if they knew existed in 1A have NEVER been in the conversation about SF, championships, "unfair advantage," etc. who would all be swept up in a multiplier. 

Ok, now do the number of public schools at the small school level (as a percentage of the TOTAL number of public schools) that never get a fair chance

Attendance at a P/P is a CHOICE made by families and I’d assume very rarely (especially at the 1A/2A level) are athletics the top/deciding factor in that choice.

Those 1A/2A kids who attend the public school in their area and can not afford a private education don’t get that choice.

If athletic success trumps the private school academic “advantages” I keep hearing about then that’s fine.  You’ve always got the option to save some cash and just attend the school district in which you live.

DT is right.  Many of these 1A schools in particular have no business fielding a football team.

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15 hours ago, Whiting89 said:

Yeah from afar it seems like the northwest Indiana media is barely covering Hobart because they know they have no chance 

I have seen HUDL film of Hobart this year.  To say they have "no chance" is just wrong and I would argue disrespectful to the kids who battled to get to Indianapolis this weekend.  

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