Who are the top 10 programs

[temptation]

11 minutes ago, Trojanmp52 said:

I do like the idea of looking back 30 years.   But I disagree with having to have more than one coach.  My reason for that is you can have some coach at one place for more then 30 years.

also before coach Moore got to CG their was a guy named Kevin King as the coach.  he was starting to turn the program in upward direction.  He never won a sectional but that was during the time where Bloomington south a Martsville where still top tier programs

CG also started exploding in population in the late 90s also.

I’m one of the biggest Eric Moore guys on here and he deserves every bit of praise for his accomplishments but the timing of his takeover was perfect and cannot be ignored.

[Grover]

20 minutes ago, temptation said:

CG also started exploding in population in the late 90s also.

False

[temptation]

3 minutes ago, Grover said:

False

Ok wise guy.  Do tell.

CG has nearly doubled in enrollment in the past 25 years.

So even if I am “wrong”, CG exploded DURING the early years of Moore’s tenure which still makes my statement valid.

[Grover]

Just now, temptation said:

Ok wise guy.  Do tell.

CG has nearly doubled in enrollment in the past 25 years.

So even if I am “wrong”, CG exploded DURING the early years of Moore’s tenure which still makes my statement valid.

Whatever makes you feel good.  I graduated in '82 and the school is just now around twice the size it was when I graduated.  In the 12 years I was there it exploded.  Saying it started to explode in the 90s simply isn't accurate.

[temptation]

13 minutes ago, Grover said:

Whatever makes you feel good.  I graduated in '82 and the school is just now around twice the size it was when I graduated.  In the 12 years I was there it exploded.  Saying it started to explode in the 90s simply isn't accurate.

So, roughly 1400 in 1982.

Around 2000 in 2000.

2800 in 2023.

Gained 600 students between 1982-2000, or a 42% increase.

Gained 800 students between 2000-2023, another 40% increase.

Semantics.  My statement regarding Moore’s timing still reigns true. 

 

Edited July 16, 2023 by temptation

[psaboy]

I think my list and ranking is correct. 

[Trojanmp52]

15 hours ago, temptation said:

CG also started exploding in population in the late 90s also.

 

It started in the late 60 early 70 

[temptation]

A quick glance reveals that Center Grove has won 20 team state championships in the history of the school…only one (softball in 1986) came prior to 1990.

I stand by my statement.

[Grover]

Lol

[temptation]

1 hour ago, Grover said:

Lol

A live look @Grover…

[foxbat]

On 7/15/2023 at 12:08 PM, OldschoolFB said:

That’s a great list.  It’s also hard to judge a great program accurately because you have schools move up for success factor recently that could prevent many more schools from winning in their own class level.  Conversely, all 6A schools aren’t subjected to a “success factor” so they can continue to win in their own class level.  
Overall, If you factor in long term success, winning against teams in higher classes(or dominating the 6A level) rarely having an “off” year and produce college athletes, I would say it’s between Cathedral and Carmel with Cathedral edging them out. 
Before anyone gets on my case about 6A not having an option for moving up so it’s irrelevant, it “fairness” was actually the goal(which it’s not at all the case)Carmel, Ben Davis, Warren Central(and probably 10 others) could easily field 2 teams. I mean wouldn’t this provide more opportunity for more kids?  If it was fairness, that would be an option.  Since it’s not, it has to be about rewarding those who don’t want to earn it.  Now I’m off my soap box.  
back to main topic.  It’s Cathedral who has the top program. 

This hasn't been all that much of an issue.  Cathedral's pretty much the only program that moved up a class and kept someone from that new class from winning in their regular class level ... that would be in 5A.  Also, there are teams that moved up via SF that ended up in the new class by enrollment anyway.  Linton and Scecina both ended up in 2A by SF and both remain there because of enrollment.  1A Adams Central may well end up being SF'd, but realistically they are likely to hit enrollment to go to 2A at the same time.  Lutheran would likely be the only 1A school to head to 2A that could, potentially, keep someone in 2A from winning that class.  Chatard could also be in that same position, but last time they were in 4A, IHSAA put them up against Roncalli, so that pretty much made sure that Chatard wasn't going to keep a regular 4A school from taking 4A.  You can certainly argue that Pioneer and LCC, both of whom were SF'd might have won 1A more if they hadn't been SF'd, but also realistically, while LCC has won a couple of state championships in 1A after having returned from 2A, they were also dropped four of six seasons in 1A as well by teams that ended up at LOS in 1A ... and only one of those was close as the rest were losses by four or more TDs including a 70-7 drumming at the hands of Pioneer and 42-9 at the hands of South Adams.  Similarly, Pioneer's return to 1A was pretty anti-climatic with a 2-8 season record and an unceremonious first round bounce from the tourney by Triton 42-6.

[tango]

59 minutes ago, foxbat said:

This hasn't been all that much of an issue. 

How many teams have won state after being bumped up? I can think of 3 - Cathedral, New Pal and Ev. Memorial. 

[foxbat]

16 minutes ago, tango said:

How many teams have won state after being bumped up? I can think of 3 - Cathedral, New Pal and Ev. Memorial. 

Those are the only three that I can think of.  LCC probably came closest of those that didn't; dropping a 17-14 semi-state game on the road to eventual 2A champ RCHS back in 2014.

[BLACKGOLD2007]

On 7/14/2023 at 9:35 AM, psaboy said:

I was going on an all time or at least the last 40 years. Currently I would say they may fall on the 11-20 range, All time they are in the bottom end of top 10 IMO

I guess I am just so tired of the current estate of affairs.  

[BLACKGOLD2007]

On 7/14/2023 at 9:40 PM, BTF said:

You're selling the Kingsman short. A "program", however you define it, is consistently good over a period of time. In my opinion, that period of time is three decades. I was going to eliminate some teams by adding regional and semi-state champions, but only ten teams popped up after the first round of research. 

Being a former player and a fan, it is hard to watch a program that was constantly in the conversation for semi-state and state aspirations go .500.  

In years past I would have been loosing my mind at the thought of Penn not being higher on the list.  I just cant defend it's current state of affairs. 

[BTF]

1 hour ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

Being a former player and a fan, it is hard to watch a program that was constantly in the conversation for semi-state and state aspirations go .500.  

In years past I would have been loosing my mind at the thought of Penn not being higher on the list.  I just cant defend it's current state of affairs. 

Sometimes your better off being a fan of the game itself instead of putting all your eggs in one basket. I get it though, I can see Penn fans getting restless. It's like Notre Dame, fans expect a certain quality of play after decades of prosperity. Penn always had, and probably still does, have one of the best fan bases in the state. They would bring 2500 fans to Spuller Stadium. 

[BLACKGOLD2007]

On 7/17/2023 at 7:25 PM, BTF said:

Sometimes your better off being a fan of the game itself instead of putting all your eggs in one basket. I get it though, I can see Penn fans getting restless. It's like Notre Dame, fans expect a certain quality of play after decades of prosperity. Penn always had, and probably still does, have one of the best fan bases in the state. They would bring 2500 fans to Spuller Stadium. 

It really does depend on the distance of the game, how the season is going and/or if they actually have a chance at winning...those are the three benchmarks that will determine if Penn travels well.  There are home games the students don't even show up for. It could just be a cycle, idk but it is frustrating.

I remember when we went 10-2, in that year we beat Ben Davis, Valpo and Toledo Central Catholic....but lost two games to Mishawaka....then went 7-5 the next season again losing to Mishawaka twice...I thought the sky was falling then...Having 3 seasons of around .500 football had my family considering not getting season tickets anymore. 

I adopted the fan of the game mentality with the NFL, I just cannot care enough with that league.. I am more fluid with college, but I plant my flag in the ND section first.  High School, since we are surrounded by rivals, schools I love to hate, I struggle cheering for them. I find myself paying attention to Snider, the DAC schools and the Indy teams each week. 

[BLACKGOLD2007]

So, I am going to try my hand at this.  I am going by just the last ten seasons.

1. Center Grove (Has been in 6 out of the 10 state title games, 4 wins)

2. Cathedral (Won 4 titles in 5A, and been competitive in 6A)

3. Chatard (4 state title wins in last ten seasons in 3A)

4. Carmel (Has been to 5 state title games in last 10 seasons, winning 2)

5. Westfield (Has been in 4 state title games total, winning 1 in 5A,  2 appearances in 5A and 2 in 6A)

6. New Palestine (Has 4 state appearances, 3 wins and 1 Regional championship)

7. Ben Davis (Has 2 state title wins and 4 Regional championships)

8. Columbus East (Has 3 states, 2 wins and 2 Regional championships, in 4A and 5A)

9. Valparaiso (Has 2 total appearances, 1 win and 2 Regional championships)

10. Evansville Mater Dei (3 state appearances, 2 wins and 1 Regional championship)

               **The notation of Regional Champ is for seasons that ended in Semi-State, the years the teams won or appeared in state is not included in those numbers

[Gipper]

Does it really matter?  Sure, winning is nice and all, but the clear majority of high school football players will not play beyond this level.

[npcougar15]

20 minutes ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

So, I am going to try my hand at this.  I am going by just the last ten seasons.

1. Center Grove (Has been in 6 out of the 10 state title games, 4 wins)

2. Cathedral (Won 4 titles in 5A, and been competitive in 6A)

3. Chatard (4 state title wins in last ten seasons in 3A)

4. Carmel (Has been to 5 state title games in last 10 seasons, winning 2)

5. Westfield (Has been in 4 state title games total, winning 1 in 5A,  2 appearances in 5A and 2 in 6A)

6. New Palestine (Has 4 state appearances, 3 wins and 1 Regional championship)

7. Ben Davis (Has 2 state title wins and 4 Regional championships)

8. Columbus East (Has 3 states, 2 wins and 2 Regional championships, in 4A and 5A)

9. Valparaiso (Has 2 total appearances, 1 win and 2 Regional championships)

10. Evansville Mater Dei (3 state appearances, 2 wins and 1 Regional championship)

               **The notation of Regional Champ is for seasons that ended in Semi-State, the years the teams won or appeared in state is not included in those numbers

Where is the small school love?

Pioneer. 2 state titles. 4 appearances. 5 regional championships. 7 sectionals.

Linton Stockton. 1 state title. 2 appearances. 4 regional championships. 5 sectionals.

Evansville Memorial. 2 titles. 3 appearances. 4 regional championships. 6 sectionals.

Indianapolis Lutheran. 2 titles. 3 appearances. 7 regional championships. 8 sectionals.

Andrean. 2 titles. 4 appearances. 5 regional championships. 6 sectionals.

 

But when you take out the numbers and factor in what they've had to work with; Pioneer, New Palestine, and Center Grove have been the 3 most impressive programs the past 10 years. Period. 

 

 

[BTF]

35 minutes ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

So, I am going to try my hand at this.  I am going by just the last ten seasons.

1. Center Grove (Has been in 6 out of the 10 state title games, 4 wins)

2. Cathedral (Won 4 titles in 5A, and been competitive in 6A)

3. Chatard (4 state title wins in last ten seasons in 3A)

4. Carmel (Has been to 5 state title games in last 10 seasons, winning 2)

5. Westfield (Has been in 4 state title games total, winning 1 in 5A,  2 appearances in 5A and 2 in 6A)

6. New Palestine (Has 4 state appearances, 3 wins and 1 Regional championship)

7. Ben Davis (Has 2 state title wins and 4 Regional championships)

8. Columbus East (Has 3 states, 2 wins and 2 Regional championships, in 4A and 5A)

9. Valparaiso (Has 2 total appearances, 1 win and 2 Regional championships)

10. Evansville Mater Dei (3 state appearances, 2 wins and 1 Regional championship)

               **The notation of Regional Champ is for seasons that ended in Semi-State, the years the teams won or appeared in state is not included in those numbers

I was going to question your #9, but npcouger15 beat me to it. I just don't see Valpo as a Top 10 program. 

It's sad that your top eight are from the Indy area, but it's probably the truth. Indy has been on a different level over the last decade. 

Also sad that a Snider, Dwenger (two state titles compared to Valpo's one), or Luers isn't in the top ten. No representation from Fort Wayne, and probably rightly so. 

[foxbat]

2 minutes ago, npcougar15 said:

Where is the small school love?

Pioneer. 2 state titles. 4 appearances. 5 regional championships. 7 sectionals.

Linton Stockton. 1 state title. 2 appearances. 4 regional championships. 5 sectionals.

Evansville Memorial. 2 titles. 3 appearances. 4 regional championships. 6 sectionals.

Indianapolis Lutheran. 2 titles. 3 appearances. 7 regional championships. 8 sectionals.

Andrean. 2 titles. 4 appearances. 5 regional championships. 6 sectionals.

 

But when you take out the numbers and factor in what they've had to work with; Pioneer, New Palestine, and Center Grove have been the 3 most impressive programs the past 10 years. Period. 

 

 

For small schools, if you are including Linton, Pioneer, and Lutheran, then LCC should be in that mix too.  In last 10 seasons:

• State titles: 2 in 1A ... over Lutheran and Linton
• State appearances: 2 in 1A
• Regionals: 4 ... 3 in 1A and 1 in 2A
• Sectionals: 7 ... 4 in 1A and 3 in 2A

And this is all since the four-peat state run in 1A, 2009-2012, which would tack on an additional 4 state titles, 4 appearances, 4 more regionals, and four more sectional titles.

[BTF]

1 hour ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

There are home games the students don't even show up for. 

High School, since we are surrounded by rivals, schools I love to hate, I struggle cheering for them. I find myself paying attention to Snider, the DAC schools and the Indy teams each week. 

I'm presuming the students show up in full force during big games? If not, that's a serious problem. 

It's hard to not get pumped up for high school football. Too bad more people are interested in universities they have no association with and overpaid NFL franchises. Why not support the kids in their own communities? Hard to beat those Snider/Penn games for $7. Same could be said for rivalries in every area of the state. 

[OldschoolFB]

On 7/15/2023 at 8:04 PM, Trojanmp52 said:

I do like the idea of looking back 30 years.   But I disagree with having to have more than one coach.  My reason for that is you can have some coach at one place for more then 30 years.

also before coach Moore got to CG their was a guy named Kevin King as the coach.  he was starting to turn the program in upward direction.  He never won a sectional but that was during the time where Bloomington south a Martsville where still top tier programs

Agree.  If 1 coach makes you dominant then you’re dominant.  That coach will likely bring a culture that’s going to stay long term anyway 

[OldschoolFB]

On 7/15/2023 at 2:17 PM, Grover said:

Devil’s advocate. The premise is 2nd through 12th grade. Doesn’t Cathedral’s program start in 9th grade?

I guess they don’t have a feeder program.  So if that’s the case, it would have to be Carmel.  And then Chatard and  New Pal and 
center Grove if you don’t go back too deep. 
ir you could add Luers but 2A and recruiting an absurd amount is hard for me to agree with.