Who are the top 10 programs

[Bobref]

3 hours ago, Rodney said:

Your grammatical prowess is something to be in awe of

In which case he’ll be after for ending a sentence with a preposition. 🤣

[Rodney]

3 hours ago, Bobref said:

In which case he’ll be after for ending a sentence with a preposition. 🤣

there is nothing grammatically incorrect about ending a sentence with a preposition.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/prepositions-ending-a-sentence-with in case you were wondering.

[Bobref]

4 hours ago, Rodney said:

there is nothing grammatically incorrect about ending a sentence with a preposition.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/prepositions-ending-a-sentence-with in case you were wondering.

My 5th grade teacher begs to differ. 🤣😂

[Muda69]

29 minutes ago, Bobref said:

My 5th grade teacher begs to differ. 🤣😂

Yeah, but wasn't your 5th grade teacher teaching Ye Olde English, not the New English?  🙂

 

 

[BTF]

On 7/10/2023 at 10:32 PM, Titan32 said:

 Is Fort Wayne technically even in Indiana? LOL

That's debatable. You see more Ohio State shirts than any other college. There are a lot of Ohio transplants in FW being just 15 minutes away. 

[BTF]

Back on topic. Being that it was started from someone from Center Grove, let's start there. I'd like to see how Center Grove sustains itself after Eric Moore leaves. Center Grove has only ever been about one coach. A good program succeeds from one coach to the next. That being said, Moore has been there two decades now, and the level of play he has the Trojans playing at definitely puts them into the conversation. 

It's kind of a shame that these conversations always center around the schools with the most resources. It's not really a fair fight. Teams at the lower levels rarely are given credit as Top 10 programs. 

[Bash Riprock]

3 hours ago, Muda69 said:

Yeah, but wasn't your 5th grade teacher teaching Ye Olde English, not the New English?  🙂

 

 

I was thinking the exact same thing Muda.  Perhaps Bob and I had the same English teacher....or maybe our teachers were related!!!  😁

[Justasportsfan]

1 hour ago, BTF said:

 

It's kind of a shame that these conversations always center around the schools with the most resources. It's not really a fair fight. Teams at the lower levels rarely are given credit as Top 10 programs. 

True..most would say all top 10 should be in or around the doughnut..maybe breaking it up geographically would allow the Gibson southerns and Adam centrals of the state their due credit..

[kingtut]

Looking back at the records of the last two coaches covering 23 years, the Linton Miners have averaged 10+ wins per season with only one losing season, a 5-6 record a few years ago.  Going back even further to 1980, the Miners have averaged 8+ wins per season.  True, not much post-season success since the move to 2A, but I would say that's a pretty good program. 

[BTF]

These ten programs have sustained a high level of success spanning three decades. They are the only ones who have at least five sectional titles in each of the past three decades:

Ben Davis, Carmel, Eastbrook, Mater Dei, Dwenger, Luers, Snider, Cathedral, Chatard, and Penn. 

[BLACKGOLD2007]

On 7/9/2023 at 6:44 PM, psaboy said:

I would say all time would contain; Carmel, Ben Davis, Warren Central, Indianapolis Cathedral, Penn, Center Grove, Bishop Luers, Indianapolis Chatard. Spots 9 & 10, maybe Roncalli, Hobart, Dwenger, Snider???

 

I am sorry we cannot keep Penn in this group anymore....at least not in Football.

[BLACKGOLD2007]

On 7/11/2023 at 8:46 AM, Ballhawk said:

Historically, these are the top 5 in all-time wins in Indiana:

1.  Cathedral  774

2.  Evansville Reitz  725

3.  Sheridan  704

4.  West Lafayette. 677

5. (tie) Linton-Stockton 666; Mishawaka 666

The next 10:  6. Hobart 654; 7. Culver Academy 650; 8. Elkhart Central (Elkhart) 648; 9. Bloomington South 647; 10. Hammond (Hammond Central) 633; 11. Rensselaer 620; 12. Carmel 614; 13. Lafayette Jefferson 607; 14. Evansville Memorial 604

Doesn't mean a lot as far as the top programs now, but interesting to see some schools on this list are still doing very well.

 

Going by all time wins, is not always the route to judge by sustained success.  There are schools that have been around a lot longer than others, but have not accomplished the things the younger schools have.  Mishawaka much older than Penn.  Penn has 5 states titles since the 80's Mishawaka has 0, this can also measure against a few of those other schools on that list.

But, the history is interesting to see. Thank you for sharing. 

[psaboy]

1 hour ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

I am sorry we cannot keep Penn in this group anymore....at least not in Football.

I was going on an all time or at least the last 40 years. Currently I would say they may fall on the 11-20 range, All time they are in the bottom end of top 10 IMO

[roaringthunderdlr]

Center Grove, Lutheran, Adams Central, East Central, Cathedral, Bishop Chatard, Roncalli, Mater Dei, Westfield, New Palestine are my 10. Don’t worry about order

[BTF]

13 hours ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

I am sorry we cannot keep Penn in this group anymore....at least not in Football.

You're selling the Kingsman short. A "program", however you define it, is consistently good over a period of time. In my opinion, that period of time is three decades. I was going to eliminate some teams by adding regional and semi-state champions, but only ten teams popped up after the first round of research. 

5 hours ago, roaringthunderdlr said:

Center Grove, Lutheran, Adams Central, East Central, Cathedral, Bishop Chatard, Roncalli, Mater Dei, Westfield, New Palestine are my 10. Don’t worry about order

What exactly is your criteria? Westfield over Carmel? That's a head scratcher for sure. 

[roaringthunderdlr]

1 hour ago, BTF said:

You're selling the Kingsman short. A "program", however you define it, is consistently good over a period of time. In my opinion, that period of time is three decades. I was going to eliminate some teams by adding regional and semi-state champions, but only ten teams popped up after the first round of research. 

What exactly is your criteria? Westfield over Carmel? That's a head scratcher for sure. 

A lot of it is past 2 years. But in that time Westfield with about 2800 students has done much more than Carmel with around 5400.

A school of 5400 or 4500 (BD) should constantly be in state contention every single year, yet there were multiple 6A’s (CG, Cathedral, Burg, HSE, Westfield, Carroll) that were better than both this year. So yes, Westfield currently has a better program than Carmel. And Penn has fallen recently. Undoubtedly a top 10 program of all time but far from top 10 currently.

Edited July 15, 2023 by roaringthunderdlr
Update

[BTF]

12 hours ago, roaringthunderdlr said:

A lot of it is past 2 years. But in that time Westfield with about 2800 students has done much more than Carmel with around 5400.

A school of 5400 or 4500 (BD) should constantly be in state contention every single year, yet there were multiple 6A’s (CG, Cathedral, Burg, HSE, Westfield, Carroll) that were better than both this year. So yes, Westfield currently has a better program than Carmel. And Penn has fallen recently. Undoubtedly a top 10 program of all time but far from top 10 currently.

Fair enough, everyone's opinion on what defines a program is different. This is a difficult topic every time it's posted. Do you think "2 years" is a long enough period of time to qualify a program? A two year run on talent doesn't mean you have one of the top ten programs in the state. 

[roaringthunderdlr]

5 minutes ago, BTF said:

Fair enough, everyone's opinion on what defines a program is different. This is a difficult topic every time it's posted. Do you think "2 years" is a long enough period of time to qualify a program? A two year run on talent doesn't mean you have one of the top ten programs in the state. 

In some aspects, if you compare the previous few years before that but emphasize the past two

[OldschoolFB]

On 7/13/2023 at 9:05 PM, BTF said:

These ten programs have sustained a high level of success spanning three decades. They are the only ones who have at least five sectional titles in each of the past three decades:

Ben Davis, Carmel, Eastbrook, Mater Dei, Dwenger, Luers, Snider, Cathedral, Chatard, and Penn. 

That’s a great list.  It’s also hard to judge a great program accurately because you have schools move up for success factor recently that could prevent many more schools from winning in their own class level.  Conversely, all 6A schools aren’t subjected to a “success factor” so they can continue to win in their own class level.  
Overall, If you factor in long term success, winning against teams in higher classes(or dominating the 6A level) rarely having an “off” year and produce college athletes, I would say it’s between Cathedral and Carmel with Cathedral edging them out. 
Before anyone gets on my case about 6A not having an option for moving up so it’s irrelevant, it “fairness” was actually the goal(which it’s not at all the case)Carmel, Ben Davis, Warren Central(and probably 10 others) could easily field 2 teams. I mean wouldn’t this provide more opportunity for more kids?  If it was fairness, that would be an option.  Since it’s not, it has to be about rewarding those who don’t want to earn it.  Now I’m off my soap box.  
back to main topic.  It’s Cathedral who has the top program. 

[Grover]

Devil’s advocate. The premise is 2nd through 12th grade. Doesn’t Cathedral’s program start in 9th grade?

[temptation]

14 hours ago, roaringthunderdlr said:

A lot of it is past 2 years. But in that time Westfield with about 2800 students has done much more than Carmel with around 5400.

A school of 5400 or 4500 (BD) should constantly be in state contention every single year, yet there were multiple 6A’s (CG, Cathedral, Burg, HSE, Westfield, Carroll) that were better than both this year. So yes, Westfield currently has a better program than Carmel. And Penn has fallen recently. Undoubtedly a top 10 program of all time but far from top 10 currently.

Nah, 2500-3k plus is negligible.  You can only put 11 on the field at a time.

There’s little difference between 2800-5400 in football.

 

[BTF]

2 hours ago, OldschoolFB said:

That’s a great list.  It’s also hard to judge a great program accurately because you have schools move up for success factor recently that could prevent many more schools from winning in their own class level.  Conversely, all 6A schools aren’t subjected to a “success factor” so they can continue to win in their own class level.  
Overall, If you factor in long term success, winning against teams in higher classes(or dominating the 6A level) rarely having an “off” year and produce college athletes, I would say it’s between Cathedral and Carmel with Cathedral edging them out. 
Before anyone gets on my case about 6A not having an option for moving up so it’s irrelevant, it “fairness” was actually the goal(which it’s not at all the case)Carmel, Ben Davis, Warren Central(and probably 10 others) could easily field 2 teams. I mean wouldn’t this provide more opportunity for more kids?  If it was fairness, that would be an option.  Since it’s not, it has to be about rewarding those who don’t want to earn it.  Now I’m off my soap box.  
back to main topic.  It’s Cathedral who has the top program. 

Good post. It's hard to debate any of that. It's all opinionated as to what makes a team a "program" and everyone differs in that. I agree that it's unfair to the 6A schools, especially those who beat each other up in some of the most rigorous sectionals in the state. But we all have to admit, that the smaller schools get slighted every time this topic comes up. It always comes down to the schools with the most resources. Although I feel that the ten teams I came up with are a pretty good list, there are 30 programs out there that could make a claim for Top 10. My list goes back three decades though. Is that fair? Accurate? In my opinion, a program sustains itself through multiple coaching changes. 

[temptation]

1 hour ago, Grover said:

Devil’s advocate. The premise is 2nd through 12th grade. Doesn’t Cathedral’s program start in 9th grade?

Yeah, sorry.  Not including any P/P’s in the “program” hierarchy.

[Trojanmp52]

On 7/13/2023 at 9:05 PM, BTF said:

These ten programs have sustained a high level of success spanning three decades. They are the only ones who have at least five sectional titles in each of the past three decades:

Ben Davis, Carmel, Eastbrook, Mater Dei, Dwenger, Luers, Snider, Cathedral, Chatard, and Penn. 

I do like the idea of looking back 30 years.   But I disagree with having to have more than one coach.  My reason for that is you can have some coach at one place for more then 30 years.

also before coach Moore got to CG their was a guy named Kevin King as the coach.  he was starting to turn the program in upward direction.  He never won a sectional but that was during the time where Bloomington south a Martsville where still top tier programs

Edited July 16, 2023 by Trojanmp52

[BTF]

1 minute ago, Trojanmp52 said:

I do like the idea of looking back 30 years.   But I disagree with having to have more than one coach.  My reason for is that you have some one coach at one place for more then 30 years.

also before coach Moore got to CG their was a guy named Kevin King as the coach he was starting to turn the program in upward direction.  

That's valid. I'll be honest, when I started with the criteria that I did, I wasn't expecting only ten programs to pop up. I thought there would be an elimination process. We've been doing this for a long time now, I'm not sure there's a good formula out there to make everyone happy. Center Grove is one of those programs that could certainly stake their claim in the Top 10.