CoachMack219 Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 Just now, hhpatriot04 said: This is horrible. It's like trying to put a bandaid on a bleeding artery. You're right, it's more fun to talk/ whine about solutions (crowning a Champion of Champions) than implement/ try them. You the same grouch running the Champions Network's account? Maybe we should just go back to the Mythical State Championships? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTF Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 16 minutes ago, CoachMack219 said: Arizona began this idea because of a 4A team's (Saguaro HS) dominance of the 4A division in Arizona from 2006 to 2018 where they won 11 out of 13 state championships including a run of 6 in a row from 2013-2018. There was the possibility for the first 2-3 years of "The Open Division" for the "once-in-a-lifetime class" to have to play in the Open but they have since tried to account for that by adding a multiplier to their formula that increases the chances 5 and 6A teams are selected instead of 4A teams who, unlike Saguaro, don't have as much of a chance against the big dogs. This is FAR from the dumbest idea ever. For the record, Saguaro won the Open division in 2021 as well becoming the first 4A to do so in Arizona knocking off some heavy hitters along the way much like some believe East Central can do to some of our heavy hitters. I think this would be a pretty awesome concept to see in Indiana. I do like the idea someone mentioned above about having to "accept" the invite to play in "The Open Division" especially if they're from a class below 5A. And based on final records after the regular season, their current postseason finishes, and the good ole eye test, my Open Division this year if I had a seat on the committee would have been... Thanks for the information. I think we can all appreciate why Arizona went to that format. In my opinion, the only teams that would accept are 6A teams, they have nothing to lose. For levels 1A through 5A, I think financial matters come into play. For the record, as a fan, I would LOVE to watch this play out. I just don't see anyone lower than 6A jumping on board. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 1 hour ago, BTF said: I don't see the point of winning a state championship then putting your team in position to lose a game the following week. That makes absolutely no sense to me. Yep. It was a failed attempt to appease the opponents of the move to class basketball. But it wasn't well-attended and after a few years enough schools expressed that exact sentiment so the IHSAA killed it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachMack219 Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 27 minutes ago, BTF said: Thanks for the information. I think we can all appreciate why Arizona went to that format. In my opinion, the only teams that would accept are 6A teams, they have nothing to lose. For levels 1A through 5A, I think financial matters come into play. For the record, as a fan, I would LOVE to watch this play out. I just don't see anyone lower than 6A jumping on board. I feel like there's a few teams (the heavy hitters of 5A-3A) that would like the opportunity to show they're the best of the best in the state that year. I do see your point that not many teams in 5A on down would be interested but more likely than not, those aren't the folks the Open Division was created for. It's there for the 2023 East Central's, the Cathedral's, great New Pal team's, 2020 Roncalli, and other programs that are interested in competing at an ELITE level doing just that. As a fan of football, I am with you 100% that I would LOVE to watch this play out. With the matchups I gave, the first round of the 2023 Indiana Open Division would've been... Ben Davis vs Westfield Center Grove vs Fort Wayne Snider Brownsburg vs Crown Point East Central vs Indianapolis Chatard Probably plays out to semi final matchups of Ben Davis vs Center Grove and Brownsburg vs the winner of a game EVERYONE would love to see and then there's the chance to prove if the "little guy" belongs. The winner of that beats Brownsburg and you got a shot at BD or CG to be the state's best. By the chatter I've seen on this board throughout the year, there's PLENTY of people on here who think Chatard and East Central can play with the big boys. This would allow that chance to happen, which I guess is what bothers me when this is dismissed as an ignorant solution (like the IHSAA State football tournament is the best of the bunch 🙄). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTF Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 6 minutes ago, CoachMack219 said: Ben Davis vs Westfield Center Grove vs Fort Wayne Snider Brownsburg vs Crown Point East Central vs Indianapolis Chatard Using Snider, East Central, and Chatard as an example. I'm sure all three of those programs and their fans would chomp at the bit to have that opportunity. But think of the financial ramifications. Bowing out in Round 1 or collecting gate money for four more games. It's no fun to think of it that way, but I think it's the unfortunate reality. I will say, that as a fan, I'd love to see a mandatory format like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachMack219 Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 36 minutes ago, BTF said: think of the financial ramifications. Bowing out in Round 1 or collecting gate money for four more games. It's no fun to think of it that way, but I think it's the unfortunate reality. I will say, that as a fan, I'd love to see a mandatory format like that. I'm totally with you on the financial aspect as well as the lack of desire for teams who are not the heavy hitters to partake in the Open endeavor. Definitely a buzz kill to think of it from either of those stand points but solid and fair points for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxbat Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 1 hour ago, hhpatriot04 said: This is horrible. It's like trying to put a bandaid on a bleeding artery. It's easier if you wait until the patient bleeds out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDGiant93 Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 3 hours ago, Obi-Wan said: I also miss the Dunk and Three Point contest. Boy I don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDGiant93 Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 How far back would we push wrestling, basketball and even swimming if there are boys that wish to play those sports that also play football. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obi-Wan Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 28 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said: How far back would we push wrestling, basketball and even swimming if there are boys that wish to play those sports that also play football. How many multi sports athletes are there anymore at the 4,5, and 6A level? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firsttimeformerdad Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Obi-Wan said: How many multi sports athletes are there anymore at the 4,5, and 6A level? I would guess several. Edited November 21, 2023 by Firsttimeformerdad 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxbat Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 48 minutes ago, Firsttimeformerdad said: I would guess several. Baseball's already kicking in and the first snows haven't even come yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDGiant93 Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 1 hour ago, Obi-Wan said: How many multi sports athletes are there anymore at the 4,5, and 6A level? Good point, but there are a few. Mark Zackery IV is one example at BD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiteshoes Posted November 21, 2023 Author Share Posted November 21, 2023 Another thing I am seeing more and more is the seeding of the tournament at the quarterfinal level, that would be our regional level. Kentucky has been doing it for years and just noticed that Maryland is doing it for the first time this season. Any thoughts on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temptation Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 I feel like all this would do is create rematches between 6A schools most years which I am not a fan of. Your Cathedral’s and Chatard’s of the world would sneak in occasionally and a I am not ready to anoint teams like East Central and Snider into the top 8 conversation annually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTF Posted November 22, 2023 Share Posted November 22, 2023 2 hours ago, temptation said: I feel like all this would do is create rematches between 6A schools most years which I am not a fan of. Your Cathedral’s and Chatard’s of the world would sneak in occasionally and a I am not ready to anoint teams like East Central and Snider into the top 8 conversation annually. It's a new era for sure. For three decades they were top 8 annually. As suburbia grows, so does their prominence in athletics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhpatriot04 Posted November 22, 2023 Share Posted November 22, 2023 8 hours ago, CoachMack219 said: I feel like there's a few teams (the heavy hitters of 5A-3A) that would like the opportunity to show they're the best of the best in the state that year. I do see your point that not many teams in 5A on down would be interested but more likely than not, those aren't the folks the Open Division was created for. It's there for the 2023 East Central's, the Cathedral's, great New Pal team's, 2020 Roncalli, and other programs that are interested in competing at an ELITE level doing just that. As a fan of football, I am with you 100% that I would LOVE to watch this play out. With the matchups I gave, the first round of the 2023 Indiana Open Division would've been... Ben Davis vs Westfield Center Grove vs Fort Wayne Snider Brownsburg vs Crown Point East Central vs Indianapolis Chatard Probably plays out to semi final matchups of Ben Davis vs Center Grove and Brownsburg vs the winner of a game EVERYONE would love to see and then there's the chance to prove if the "little guy" belongs. The winner of that beats Brownsburg and you got a shot at BD or CG to be the state's best. By the chatter I've seen on this board throughout the year, there's PLENTY of people on here who think Chatard and East Central can play with the big boys. This would allow that chance to happen, which I guess is what bothers me when this is dismissed as an ignorant solution (like the IHSAA State football tournament is the best of the bunch 🙄). How did you forget New Pal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gindie Posted November 22, 2023 Share Posted November 22, 2023 So, would this Open tournament replace the regular tournament for those 8 teams, or would be after the regular one? If the former, then those 8 teams potentially only have a 3-week postseason, when the others still have 5 or 6. Also, any idea who would pick the teams? The IHSAA won't even seed the sectionals now, let alone pick the best 8 in the state. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temptation Posted November 22, 2023 Share Posted November 22, 2023 1 hour ago, BTF said: It's a new era for sure. For three decades they were top 8 annually. As suburbia grows, so does their prominence in athletics. Yep. Glad you said it. Because we all know if I had, the words would be twisted into a “free lunch/lack of respect for the work ethic of suburban coaches” argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTF Posted November 22, 2023 Share Posted November 22, 2023 3 minutes ago, temptation said: Yep. Glad you said it. Because we all know if I had, the words would be twisted into a “free lunch/lack of respect for the work ethic of suburban coaches” argument. You'd have to be blind, deaf, and dumb to not see the advantages suburbia has over their counterparts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiteshoes Posted November 22, 2023 Author Share Posted November 22, 2023 11 hours ago, gindie said: So, would this Open tournament replace the regular tournament for those 8 teams, or would be after the regular one? If the former, then those 8 teams potentially only have a 3-week postseason, when the others still have 5 or 6. Also, any idea who would pick the teams? The IHSAA won't even seed the sectionals now, let alone pick the best 8 in the state. The Open tournament would replace the regular tournament for teams involved in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACKGOLD2007 Posted November 22, 2023 Share Posted November 22, 2023 21 hours ago, hhpatriot04 said: You were 10 and don't remember the last Indiana High School Single Class Basketball Tournament ever conducted? What type of childhood did you have? Was the abuse really bad? It seems you never recovered (the affiliation with Purdont...) Yikes! I did not pay attention to high school basketball at that time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACKGOLD2007 Posted November 22, 2023 Share Posted November 22, 2023 20 hours ago, RegionFBFan said: Completely agree with you BTF. if you are so determined to identify best team in State, go back to 5 classes by combining 5A and 6A. It would essentially capture the top teams in State 90% + of the time. go back to 5 classes and still have some sort of understandable success factor system. You will see which schools want to compete in the biggest class and which teams don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDB26 Posted November 22, 2023 Share Posted November 22, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said: go back to 5 classes and still have some sort of understandable success factor system. You will see which schools want to compete in the biggest class and which teams don't I suppose this type of thing would be fine in Indiana, but it seems sort of strange. I think @temptation said it, this almost certainly a smaller 6A tournament. I'm trying to clarify whether participation in this tournament would be compulsory or elective. Can see problems with both. What if East Central had never won a state championship before and they were mandatorily entered into this field? OR, what kind of pressure would that put on them if they had the option? Those aren't reasons to not organize a system like AZ's, just the inherent problem that comes to mind especially considering it seems AZ instituted the system to specifically address a competitive issue with one program in one class. Wouldn't a tournament that had: 1) 5 classes, 2) Understandable and reasonably applied success factor system and 3) Seeded regional groups--if not the full field--pretty much address most concerns, outside of those from the neutral sites crew, while capturing almost all of the teams that would be likely to participate in an open tournament? Also, single class ball was fun, and the environment inside Northside gym for a sectional often felt like a state championship kind of weekend. That's what was lost with class basketball. Edited November 22, 2023 by PDB26 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temptation Posted November 22, 2023 Share Posted November 22, 2023 2 minutes ago, PDB26 said: I suppose this type of thing would be fine in Indiana, but it seems sort of strange. I think @temptation said it, this almost certainly a smaller 6A tournament. I'm trying to clarify whether participation in this tournament would be compulsory or elective. Can see problems with both. What if East Central had never won a state championship before and they were mandatorily entered into this field? OR, what kind of pressure would that put on them if they had the option? Those aren't reasons to not organize a system like AZ's, just the inherent problem that comes to mind especially considering it seems AZ instituted the system to specifically address a competitive issue with one program in one class. Wouldn't a tournament that had: 1) 5 classes, 2) Understandable and reasonably applied success factor system and 3) Seeded regional groups--if not the full field--pretty much address most concerns, outside of those from the neutral sites crew, while capturing almost all of the teams that would be likely to participate in an open tournament? Also, single class ball was fun, and the environment inside Northside gym for a sectional often felt like a state championship kind of weekend. That's what was lost with class basketball. My 8 would be: Ben Davis East Central Center Grove Brownsburg Bishop Chatard Cathedral Crown Point Westfield Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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