Championships are they all equal

[Trojanmp52]

I had this talk with a few coworkers back during march about the ncaa but it could also apply here.  Do all championships eras have them same weight.  Take team A has won 13state championships but team b has 6.  Say team team A won8 titles say understand cluster system or before and all of team Team B have been since it was an all in tournament.   
Do not get me wrong you can only play what is front of you but looking back know in my opinion the the 6 means more the the 13.

take iu basketball ncaa title they only won one under the current system. So in my opinion the other do mean as much 

[Wildcat1992]

I think its ridiculous to say a teams championships "don't mean as much" based on the era they played in.  The current system will always be the "best".  50 years from now when we have seeded sectionals, will they look back and say the champs from the 2020's don't mean as much because they were in a different system?  Completely ridiculous.

[oldtimeqb]

My only distinction is between titles won on the field/court vs ‘mythical’ titles. 

In 1956 (or pretty much any year prior to the 80’s) Team A was 10-0 and claims a title because of a press vote. That’s not the same as a team that won via tournament. JMHO

[Muda69]

Indiana high school basketball state titles had more weight in the single-class era than in the current multi-class era.

 

[BTF]

At the end of the day, regardless of the era, the two best teams more than likely played for the title. Meaning the best team from the north and the best team from the south. So no, I don't the the argument holds any weight. Center Grove came onto the scene about a decade or two behind the other powers, hence less championships. 

[Trojanmp52]

6 hours ago, BTF said:

At the end of the day, regardless of the era, the two best teams more than likely played for the title. Meaning the best team from the north and the best team from the south. So no, I don't the the argument holds any weight. Center Grove came onto the scene about a decade or two behind the other powers, hence less championships. 

I never said a word about Center Grove. This could about Ben Davis just as much they did not win their first state title until the all in as it is now.  It is more about. The era’s before 85 and after.  This was started first with my coworkers about ncaa and the before and after they went to 64 teams.  

 

7 hours ago, Muda69 said:

Indiana high school basketball state titles had more weight in the single-class era than in the current multi-class era.

 

I Almost never agree with your opinions but  with this i do.

[Daniel_Bragg]

A championship only matters in the year that it is won.  Comparing titles from different decades or systems is just a waste of time mentally.  Serves no purpose.  Much like saying that a basketball state title today doesn't matter as much as before classes.  Every title matters.  Stop trying to create new ways to diminish someone else's accomplishments.

[CoachGallogly]

On 6/6/2024 at 12:21 PM, Muda69 said:

Indiana high school basketball state titles had more weight in the single-class era than in the current multi-class era.

 

Sectional championships had more value in the single class era.  I’m not sold state championships did. 

[Muda69]

1925, 1929, 1936, 1939.

[WestfieldRocks]

On 6/7/2024 at 3:40 PM, CoachGallogly said:

Sectional championships had more value in the single class era.  I’m not sold state championships did. 

Agreed. The old Butler sectional in the 60's was a monster with 14 teams. Southport I believe had 11 teams during that time. All Marion County schools north of Washington St. played at Butler, and south of Washington St. played at Southport. Today teams can win a sectional by just winning two games. In fact, with a bye, a team can win a class tournament by winning only 6 games. That old Butler sectional took 4 wins just to get out of there. Most all other sectionals were 8 teams, thus three wins were required, so 9 wins to win state.

[CoachGallogly]

Since 99% of teams had no shot at a state title in the single class era, it wasn’t really the concern in most communities.  Yea the Milan miracle was a great story, but it wasn’t really an upset story. 
 

For most communities winning the sectional gained your town/school/players a life long bragging rights locally, especially for smaller towns in a way a state title today doesn’t approach. 

[Gipper]

Winning a State Championship albeit in single class or separate classes is a big thing and should not be overlooked.  

[BDGiant93]

On 6/6/2024 at 10:26 AM, Trojanmp52 said:

I had this talk with a few coworkers back during march about the ncaa but it could also apply here.  Do all championships eras have them same weight.  Take team A has won 13state championships but team b has 6.  Say team team A won8 titles say understand cluster system or before and all of team Team B have been since it was an all in tournament.   
Do not get me wrong you can only play what is front of you but looking back know in my opinion the the 6 means more the the 13.

take iu basketball ncaa title they only won one under the current system. So in my opinion the other do mean as much 

I think when you start comparing teams to other teams...yes. For example, the 1991 Ben Davis team vs. the 2017 Ben Davis team. They both were undefeated and won state. They both were dominant. I'd argue the landscape of Indiana High School Football was much tougher in 2017 than 1991. Maybe I'm wrong. They both weight the same because they hung a plaque, but when we start cussing and discussing the strength of each team, I have to think 2017 was better. Does that make sense?

[temptation]

35 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

I think when you start comparing teams to other teams...yes. For example, the 1991 Ben Davis team vs. the 2017 Ben Davis team. They both were undefeated and won state. They both were dominant. I'd argue the landscape of Indiana High School Football was much tougher in 2017 than 1991. Maybe I'm wrong. They both weight the same because they hung a plaque, but when we start cussing and discussing the strength of each team, I have to think 2017 was better. Does that make sense?

Not sure I agree/disagree without you expanding on your statement.

Why, in your opinion, was 2017 harder than 1991?

My thought is that modern day kids are bigger, faster and stronger due to advancements in technology, training, equipment etc…

But on the other end of that, BD was far from a “mega school” in 1991 and did not have a huge enrollment advantage as they boast now.

I know I am talking out of both sides of my mouth here though.

Make sense?

Edited June 18, 2024 by temptation

[BDGiant93]

1 hour ago, temptation said:

Not sure I agree/disagree without you expanding on your statement.

Why, in your opinion, was 2017 harder than 1991?

My thought is that modern day kids are bigger, faster and stronger due to advancements in technology, training, equipment etc…

But on the other end of that, BD was far from a “mega school” in 1991 and did not have a huge enrollment advantage as they boast now.

I know I am talking out of both sides of my mouth here though.

Make sense?

Ben Davis had around 3,000 kids or so in 1991. I believe North Central was the state's largest back then. 

In 1991, no one touched that team. No one. They stepped on the field and you were beaten. The closest game they had was at state vs. Penn, and they led 38-0 before giving up 14.

I think that there were more good teams in 2017. Heck, Warren nearly beat BD in the Sectional. 

[BTF]

I'm not sure kids are any different now than they were in the 80's and 90's. I think the biggest difference is that back then, you had to be better than four teams to win the championship. Now there's 10-15 teams that have the resources to take you out of the tournament. 

[temptation]

1 hour ago, BTF said:

I'm not sure kids are any different now than they were in the 80's and 90's. I think the biggest difference is that back then, you had to be better than four teams to win the championship. Now there's 10-15 teams that have the resources to take you out of the tournament. 

Really though?  Not in 1A, 5A or 6A after a quick glance.  I bet I can pick nearly 60 percent of the eventual sectional champions in those three classes right now on June 19th.

I could probably approach 50% on all classes if you gave me time.

[BTF]

59 minutes ago, temptation said:

Really though?  Not in 1A, 5A or 6A after a quick glance.  I bet I can pick nearly 60 percent of the eventual sectional champions in those three classes right now on June 19th.

I could probably approach 50% on all classes if you gave me time.

I still had 6A on the brain when I posted. Outside of the privates, there's more parity in classes 1A-5A. In 6A, there are ten teams capable of knocking off the best if said team doesn't put their best foot forward. In the 80's and 90's, that wasn't the case. It was the Carmel, Penn, Snder, Ben Davis, and Warren Central show. Now you have Westfield, Brownsburg, Center Grove, HSE, Fishers, Crown Point, Avon, and Carroll (I'm probably missing a few). Hell, Noblesville and Zionsville are capable of knocking anyone off for that matter. Best be prepared. 

[temptation]

31 minutes ago, BTF said:

I still had 6A on the brain when I posted. Outside of the privates, there's more parity in classes 1A-5A. In 6A, there are ten teams capable of knocking off the best if said team doesn't put their best foot forward. In the 80's and 90's, that wasn't the case. It was the Carmel, Penn, Snder, Ben Davis, and Warren Central show. Now you have Westfield, Brownsburg, Center Grove, HSE, Fishers, Crown Point, Avon, and Carroll (I'm probably missing a few). Hell, Noblesville and Zionsville are capable of knocking anyone off for that matter. Best be prepared. 

Then why do we continuously get the same four 6A state champs?

I’d make the argument we simply have 4 BD’s capable of knocking one another off and a couple extra who can sneak up on people on a rare occasion.

Edited June 19, 2024 by temptation

[BTF]

It's not the same four, the dynamic has changed along with the growth of the suburbs, mostly Indy. I still consider Center Grove as the new kid on the block, probably because they were nowhere to found prior to the Eric Moore era. Penn fell off the top of the mountain with the departure of Chris Geesman. Snider dissipated with shrinking enrollment and additional mega schools coming onto the scene. So yeah, you still have the same three largest schools in the state taking the championships, that hasn't changed. Insert Center Grove to replace Penn and you have, almost, the same four. Carmel, Ben Davis, and Warren Central will always be relevant as long as they continue to get good coaching. It's impossible not to be relevant with their enrollment numbers. But the odds of a Snider or Bloomington South slipping in and taking the whole thing in 6A (both were capable at one time) is highly less likely. There are just too many mega schools now to contend with. The million dollar question for me is "which one will step up like Center Grove did?" I'm talking about the schools with 2400-3400 enrollments. 

[temptation]

7 minutes ago, BTF said:

It's not the same four, the dynamic has changed along with the growth of the suburbs, mostly Indy. I still consider Center Grove as the new kid on the block, probably because they were nowhere to found prior to the Eric Moore era. Penn fell off the top of the mountain with the departure of Chris Geesman. Snider dissipated with shrinking enrollment and additional mega schools coming onto the scene. So yeah, you still have the same three largest schools in the state taking the championships, that hasn't changed. Insert Center Grove to replace Penn and you have, almost, the same four. Carmel, Ben Davis, and Warren Central will always be relevant as long as they continue to get good coaching. It's impossible not to be relevant with their enrollment numbers. But the odds of a Snider or Bloomington South slipping in and taking the whole thing in 6A (both were capable at one time) is highly less likely. There are just too many mega schools now to contend with. The million dollar question for me is "which one will step up like Center Grove did?" I'm talking about the schools with 2400-3400 enrollments. 

Lemme save you a million….HSE, Fishers, Westfield, Brownsburg, Carroll and Crown Point.

Eventually but further down the road..Zionsville, Whiteland, New Palestine, Mount Vernon, Franklin Central and Homestead.

[BTF]

17 minutes ago, temptation said:

Lemme save you a million….HSE, Fishers, Westfield, Brownsburg, Carroll and Crown Point.

Eventually but further down the road..Zionsville, Whiteland, New Palestine, Mount Vernon, Franklin Central and Homestead.

New Pal?

[temptation]

3 minutes ago, BTF said:

New Pal?

Yeah.

[BTF]

27 minutes ago, temptation said:

Yeah.

They're enrollment seems to be the same every year I look. 

[BTF]

19 minutes ago, BTF said:

They're enrollment seems to be the same every year I look. 

Their enrollment.