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MIC & HCC realignment


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2 minutes ago, temptation said:

Man, your hatred of Carmel is palpable.

(I will give you credit on your Snider/Homestead basketball prediction however.)

I don't hate Carmel. I just get defensive when at comments like "going through the north without breaking a sweat." Or claims that their program is superior to their counterparts without disclosing that they have an unfair advantage. Better team? Yes. Better program? Absolutely not.

Yesterdays game at Homestead was a doubleheader. The Lady Spartans #1, defeated Snider #9, by 5 points. Heard the gymnasium was a sellout. Turns out both fan bases were able to leave the gym proud of their teams performance. 

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26 minutes ago, BTF said:

I don't hate Carmel. I just get defensive when at comments like "going through the north without breaking a sweat." Or claims that their program is superior to their counterparts without disclosing that they have an unfair advantage. Better team? Yes. Better program? Absolutely not.

Yesterdays game at Homestead was a doubleheader. The Lady Spartans #1, defeated Snider #9, by 5 points. Heard the gymnasium was a sellout. Turns out both fan bases were able to leave the gym proud of their teams performance. 

So, do you also hold those same standards to SEC football?

Huge unfair advantage in the southeast.

In other words, can I walk around claiming Michigan has a better “program” than Bama/Georgia despite the recent on the field results indicating otherwise?

(I may get that put on a t-shirt.)

Edited by temptation
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1 hour ago, temptation said:

So, do you also hold those same standards to SEC football?

Huge unfair advantage in the southeast.

In other words, can I walk around claiming Michigan has a better “program” than Bama/Georgia despite the recent on the field results indicating otherwise?

(I may get that put on a t-shirt.)

I think you're comparing apples to oranges. It's more of a recruiting thing than an SEC thing. High schools, most of them anyway, don't have the opportunity to recruit over a widespread area like Alabama, Ohio State, Clemson, and Georgia do. Part of what makes a good program at the college level is your ability to recruit..........at any cost. At the high school level, you're at the mercy of the kids residing in your district. 

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1 hour ago, BTF said:

I think you're comparing apples to oranges. It's more of a recruiting thing than an SEC thing. High schools, most of them anyway, don't have the opportunity to recruit over a widespread area like Alabama, Ohio State, Clemson, and Georgia do. Part of what makes a good program at the college level is your ability to recruit..........at any cost. At the high school level, you're at the mercy of the kids residing in your district. 

“At any cost” is your telling point…some kids that are offered by those programs can’t even be recruited by Michigan.

Doesn’t have as much to do with geography as you are implying.

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4 hours ago, BTF said:

They were north in 2020/2021

2019     Won state

2018     State Runner-up

2017     Third best team in the north. Never made it Lucas

2016     Won state 

2015     Didn't make it, lost to Penn. Wouldn't have made it past regional if Snider didn't get bumped down.

2014     Escaped Penn by one point before losing to Ben Davis at Lucas

 

 

Thank you. 

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I look at it like this, CG and Carmel have the option to create a new conference in the near future (I am talking 2,3,4 years from now). From what I have heard and sources that have shared, there are some HCC schools who would be willing to go with these schools. Possibly some MIC schools as well. You could see a small conference look like this...

Carmel, Center Grove, Fishers, HSE, Brownsburg, Avon, Cathedral (Maybe).

On the other hand, maybe CG is better off finding a conference to join or trying to avoid connection with Carmel. Carmel seems to be at the culprit of this entire thing. If CG stays away from them, they might have a better opportunity of joining a conference or possibly creating one on their own. Carmel is dominant in all sports and the school is so big it does intimidate programs. HCC obviously was.

It sure will be hard to find football games for both of these schools when the big schools of the Indy Metro area won't even schedule them or put them in their conference.

 

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1 hour ago, Indiana Fan said:

I look at it like this, CG and Carmel have the option to create a new conference in the near future (I am talking 2,3,4 years from now). From what I have heard and sources that have shared, there are some HCC schools who would be willing to go with these schools. Possibly some MIC schools as well. You could see a small conference look like this...

Carmel, Center Grove, Fishers, HSE, Brownsburg, Avon, Cathedral (Maybe).

On the other hand, maybe CG is better off finding a conference to join or trying to avoid connection with Carmel. Carmel seems to be at the culprit of this entire thing. If CG stays away from them, they might have a better opportunity of joining a conference or possibly creating one on their own. Carmel is dominant in all sports and the school is so big it does intimidate programs. HCC obviously was.

It sure will be hard to find football games for both of these schools when the big schools of the Indy Metro area won't even schedule them or put them in their conference.

 

Im looking for CG to make another solo run at The HCC, and get accepted.

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4 minutes ago, temptation said:

I’m also keeping an eye on this but wouldn’t expect it soon.

I just dont buy the silly argument that they are too far away.  LOL  Give me a break.  

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16 hours ago, Indiana Fan said:

It sure will be hard to find football games for both of these schools when the big schools of the Indy Metro area won't even schedule them or put them in their conference.

 

It may be more hard for one than the other.

 

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On 1/20/2022 at 2:46 PM, Indiana Fan said:

I look at it like this, CG and Carmel have the option to create a new conference in the near future (I am talking 2,3,4 years from now). From what I have heard and sources that have shared, there are some HCC schools who would be willing to go with these schools. Possibly some MIC schools as well. You could see a small conference look like this...

Carmel, Center Grove, Fishers, HSE, Brownsburg, Avon, Cathedral (Maybe).

On the other hand, maybe CG is better off finding a conference to join or trying to avoid connection with Carmel. Carmel seems to be at the culprit of this entire thing. If CG stays away from them, they might have a better opportunity of joining a conference or possibly creating one on their own. Carmel is dominant in all sports and the school is so big it does intimidate programs. HCC obviously was.

It sure will be hard to find football games for both of these schools when the big schools of the Indy Metro area won't even schedule them or put them in their conference.

 

The MIC would have some major egg on it's face if a few members tried joining Center Grove/Carmel in a new Conference. Remember, the MIC is "culturally aligned."

I can't see any conference other than the HCC willing to take on Center Grove. They would  dominate in most sports with teams from Conference Indiana or Mid State. That won't be the case in the HCC. 

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9 minutes ago, Boilernation said:

The MIC would have some major egg on it's face if a few members tried joining Center Grove/Carmel in a new Conference. Remember, the MIC is "culturally aligned."

I can't see any conference other than the HCC willing to take on Center Grove. They would  dominate in most sports with teams from Conference Indiana or Mid State. That won't be the case in the HCC. 

HCC did not want them in. I guess that conference did not want to better itself. I would be willing to guess that CG is not that dominant in any other sport. Softball would be about the only one. 

Keep in mind that it is high school sports. CG will not always have the dominant teams it had the past 2 seasons in football. 

Also, as much as I enjoy the MIC, I am still not buying the culturally aligned statement put out by the remaining 6 schools. It was a money and competition thing.

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I think it will be very interesting to see what happens with that HCC alliance now. Center Grove and Carmel may have some pull away power. I know Kyle Neddenriep has mentioned this a couple of times in articles about the possibility that some in the HCC wanted Carmel and Center Grove. It must not have been half the conference or else they would have been in. If it was three, Carmel and CG would make five. If they could talk someone like Cathedral in that would be six. Then, what happens to the rest of the HCC at that point.

Much to watch!!

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6 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

I think it will be very interesting to see what happens with that HCC alliance now. Center Grove and Carmel may have some pull away power. I know Kyle Neddenriep has mentioned this a couple of times in articles about the possibility that some in the HCC wanted Carmel and Center Grove. It must not have been half the conference or else they would have been in. If it was three, Carmel and CG would make five. If they could talk someone like Cathedral in that would be six. Then, what happens to the rest of the HCC at that point.

Much to watch!!

Is Cathedral looking for a conference?  I've always gotten the impression that Cathedral, whether they say it out loud or not, likes being independent.  I know the most comment argument against being independence, or conversely being in a conference, is the scheduling.  In some cases that's true, but it looks like Cathedral is a unique entity that the scheduling is much less of an issue for them and being independent actually provides a wanted flexibility that other programs might see as problematic.

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5 minutes ago, foxbat said:

Is Cathedral looking for a conference?  I've always gotten the impression that Cathedral, whether they say it out loud or not, likes being independent.  I know the most comment argument against being independence, or conversely being in a conference, is the scheduling.  In some cases that's true, but it looks like Cathedral is a unique entity that the scheduling is much less of an issue for them and being independent actually provides a wanted flexibility that other programs might see as problematic.

Maybe. It's my understanding that they've attempted to join conferences a few times over the years. Other Cathedral folks might know better.

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41 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

I think it will be very interesting to see what happens with that HCC alliance now. Center Grove and Carmel may have some pull away power. I know Kyle Neddenriep has mentioned this a couple of times in articles about the possibility that some in the HCC wanted Carmel and Center Grove. It must not have been half the conference or else they would have been in. If it was three, Carmel and CG would make five. If they could talk someone like Cathedral in that would be six. Then, what happens to the rest of the HCC at that point.

Much to watch!!

Just wait. It will happen. An above post might have a few of those schools that would like to break away with CG and Carmel.

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19 hours ago, BDGiant93 said:

Maybe. It's my understanding that they've attempted to join conferences a few times over the years. Other Cathedral folks might know better.

10-15 years ago it made sense as Cathedral still struggled filling a schedule and were forced to play IPS schools more times than not, but that has since changed. I do know that Cathedral has enjoyed the flexibility of being able to schedule whom they wish in that time frame. They've played as far east as Cleveland, as far south as Chattanooga, as well as Detroit, Chicago, Louisville, and all over Ohio. It's a unique situation for them and has really helped evolved their football program the last decade plus. 

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1 hour ago, Footballking16 said:

10-15 years ago it made sense as Cathedral still struggled filling a schedule and were forced to play IPS schools more times than not, but that has since changed. I do know that Cathedral has enjoyed the flexibility of being able to schedule whom they wish in that time frame. They've played as far east as Cleveland, as far south as Chattanooga, as well as Detroit, Chicago, Louisville, and all over Ohio. It's a unique situation for them and has really helped evolved their football program the last decade plus. 

They could do a Notre Dame type arrangement I'm sure where football stays independent but maybe they associate with a conference to allow them flexibility. Just spitballing. I'm sure that those convos will occur potentially IF and ONLY IF Cathedral would jump into a conference. I was speculating on Cathedral.

Edited by BDGiant93
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On 1/24/2022 at 12:51 PM, Indiana Fan said:

Just wait. It will happen. An above post might have a few of those schools that would like to break away with CG and Carmel.

Just an outsider’s view, but what this situation really needs is a novel approach. If I was an AD/coach, I want to know what weeks I’m at home and what weeks I’m on the road. I also want a schedule that is competitive for my team. It’s not useful to get your teeth kicked in and it’s not useful to do the kicking either. There are some good tournament pairing procedures brainiacs in chess and bridge use that could be modified slightly to assemble a 16 team HCC/MIC (as of last season) joint schedule. These two conferences have a lot of early season crossover, so base ratings limited to these schools are solid. 
 

Basically what it could do is give schools week 1-3 to schedule at their discretion. Ratings from post week 2 would pair teams for week 4 to give teams a bit of lead time. Over the remainder of the season, some distance is created between the top and bottom of the 16 team pool. 
 

Example:  Noblesville would have had an easier schedule last year dropping a 2-3 of Westfield, HSE, Brownsburg and replacing them with NC, LC, and Pike. Basically trading 2-3 opponents with a CG or Carmel. Same type of “trade” with Westfield/HSE/Brownsburg and the bottom three of the MIC. Mid tier teams would end up with a more even distribution. 
 

There are still chances to “fix” rivalry games in weeks 1-3 or a single random week 5-9, but the SoS self corrects so teams can “find their level” which can obviously change year to year due to class strength.
 

There is literally no reason this could not be implemented for a HS football season and I see a lot of benefits for fans, players, coaches and ADs. 
 

 

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I’m still curious to see how the vote broke down.

While my sources said it wasn’t particularly close, the Indy Star claimed it was nearly split.

If the latter is true I could see an above scenario playing itself out.

Of course I also heard that the HCC schools said, “don’t even approach us again until at least 2024”…which could be interpreted two ways…

Edited by temptation
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2 hours ago, temptation said:

I’m still curious to see how the vote broke down.

While my sources said it wasn’t particularly close, the Indy Star claimed it was nearly split.

If the latter is true I could see an above scenario playing itself out.

Of course I also heard that the HCC schools said, “don’t even approach us again until at least 2024”…which could be interpreted two ways…

From what I have heard from out in the  world is that is was a 4/4 slit.  Now what other info I have come across is that the night before it was 6/2 in favor they both get in.  Not sure what might have happen over night to change 2 yes to no’s.

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2 hours ago, Trojanmp52 said:

From what I have heard from out in the  world is that is was a 4/4 slit.  Now what other info I have come across is that the night before it was 6/2 in favor they both get in.  Not sure what might have happen over night to change 2 yes to no’s.

If I were a betting man, I would guess Noblesville and Westfield were the two against.  

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5 hours ago, Trojanmp52 said:

From what I have heard from out in the  world is that is was a 4/4 slit.  Now what other info I have come across is that the night before it was 6/2 in favor they both get in.  Not sure what might have happen over night to change 2 yes to no’s.

Complete speculation, but if the late shift is true then there are a couple of possibilities:
1) a couple of additional schools shying away from the possibility acceptance could lead to the perception that the HCC raided the MIC.  
2) 2 more voters could have generally been supportive but had some reservations.  From the HCC's perspective, there is no huge rush here.  They have all sports covered extremely well within the current structure.  Saying no now doesn't preclude them from accepting or even pursuing either or both schools in the nearish future.  There aren't other suitable conference options for CG/Carmel.  Not that either really need a conference affiliation to schedule quality opposition.  

 

 

 

 


 

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