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Impact of the Success Factor on Indiana HS Football


Impact of the Success Factor on Indiana HS Football  

66 members have voted

  1. 1. Has the Success Factor benefitted INHSFB as a whole?

    • Yes
      35
    • No
      23
    • No change
      8


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2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Lol.

P/P’s make up a fraction of the IHSAA member schools and it’s even a lesser percent when you break it down by each individual class. Using Chatard and Memorial (who make up 2% of 3A) as a reason why classifying schools by enrollment is a horrible idea is about the biggest bad faith argument I’ve heard on here. Most 3A schools have a similar athletic profile across the board and that’s because they’re all liked-sized. It’s why the IHSAA classifies schools by enrollment and why the success factor exists. 

Interesting that you don't present the flip side of that argument.  Have p/p's from 1A-5A won a "fraction" of the state championships over the last 20-25 years?

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15 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

Lol. I shouldn't get into this, but if they make up such a small fraction, then why do they win so much? Maybe because a purely enrollment-based classification benefits the schools with less dead weight? 

Here come the talk of all the things many of them do well related to football....tradition, youth league, feeder, admin...bla bla bla.  Many publics have those same things...it's about a 3A private having about the same number of quality success driven student athletes as a 4A or 5A public.  Agree with you that it equates to more wins when the number of Jimmy's and Joes is stacked in your favor.

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14 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

Lol. I shouldn't get into this, but if they make up such a small fraction, then why do they win so much? Maybe because a purely enrollment-based classification benefits the schools with less dead weight? 

The argument about dead-weight enrollment would hold a ton more weight if the Success Factor didn’t exist. Why should the rest of Chatard’s athletic programs have to suffer as a permanent fixture in 4A at the expense of its football who’s not even a regular 3A school anymore? Why should Park Tudor, a program who’s wallowed in 1A for years, have to suffer even further in 2A football because they have a high percentage of kids who play in the country club sports?

 

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19 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Interesting that you don't present the flip side of that argument.  Have p/p's from 1A-5A won a "fraction" of the state championships over the last 20-25 years?

For every one P/P who wins a football state championship, there’s a dozen more who aren’t competitive in many of their other athletic programs.

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16 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

Lol. I shouldn't get into this, but if they make up such a small fraction, then why do they win so much? Maybe because a purely enrollment-based classification benefits the schools with less dead weight? 

I wish we were, but Memorial is not in the same area code with Chatard in terms of 3A football titles. We were 0 for 2 before the SF came into play. We are 1 for 4 in 3A. Ironically, all 3 losses came after beating Chatard in semi-state.

The SF was not put in place because of Memorial HS.  

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4 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

For every one P/P who wins a football state championship, there’s a dozen more who aren’t competitive in many of their other athletic programs.

Yeah, so?  For every one government school who wins a football state championship, there are hundreds more who aren't competitive in many of their other athletic programs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promotion_and_relegation

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4 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Yeah, so?  For every one government school who wins a football state championship, there are hundreds more who aren't competitive in many of their other athletic programs.

Has anyone ever suggested that a public school needed their enrollment multiplied based on the success of their football program? I didn't think so either therefore your comparison holds zero water. 

 

4 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Not practical for high school athletics. 

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3 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Has anyone ever suggested that a public school needed their enrollment multiplied based on the success of their football program?

Yes, that is in effect what the success factor does when you have an enrollment based classification system.

 

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5 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Yes, that is in effect what the success factor does when you have an enrollment based classification system.

 

That's not at all how the SF works, good Lord.

The SF bumps up a specific athletic program temporarily who has found success in their current class. A multiplier, which most of these posters are advocating, artificially increases a school's enrollment which in turn bumps up every athletic program, regardless of success. There's zero reason why Chatard's basketball team should be playing in the 4A tournament because their football team is a dominant 3A school. That's what a multiplier does.

Not your best day today Muda. 

Edited by Footballking16
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52 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

Here come the talk of all the things many of them do well related to football....tradition, youth league, feeder, admin...bla bla bla.  Many publics have those same things...it's about a 3A private having about the same number of quality success driven student athletes as a 4A or 5A public.  Agree with you that it equates to more wins when the number of Jimmy's and Joes is stacked in your favor.

And it's why the Success Factor exists. It's why the 3A schools you've mentioned (Chatard and Memorial) have spent half their time in 4A since the implementation of the Success Factor. The multiplier in which you've advocated affects enrollment for the entire school. 

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1 hour ago, tango said:

I wish we were, but Memorial is not in the same area code with Chatard in terms of 3A football titles. We were 0 for 2 before the SF came into play. We are 1 for 4 in 3A. Ironically, all 3 losses came after beating Chatard in semi-state.

The SF was not put in place because of Memorial HS.  

Sorry, the 'they' in my original quote was referring to P/P's in general, not specifically Memorial. But they've definitely proven they can hang in 4A nonetheless. 

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On 8/8/2022 at 3:33 PM, tango said:

I wish we were, but Memorial is not in the same area code with Chatard in terms of 3A football titles. We were 0 for 2 before the SF came into play. We are 1 for 4 in 3A. Ironically, all 3 losses came after beating Chatard in semi-state.

The SF was not put in place because of Memorial HS.  

Let's be honest - the primary reasons the Success Factor exists are Cathedral/Chatard football and Muncie Burris volleyball (and to a lesser degree, Providence, which at least once used the voluntary class bump to avoid Burris in VB). I wonder if Heritage Christian/Luers GBB and Park Tudor BBB in the Ferrell/Bleuitt eras might have also been factors. One could argue Burris might have been the primary driver in the SF, although they've lost their luster a bit since Steve Shondell retired. 

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8 hours ago, crimsonace1 said:

Let's be honest - the primary reasons the Success Factor exists are Cathedral/Chatard football and Muncie Burris volleyball (and to a lesser degree, Providence, which at least once used the voluntary class bump to avoid Burris in VB). I wonder if Heritage Christian/Luers GBB and Park Tudor BBB in the Ferrell/Bleuitt eras might have also been factors. One could argue Burris might have been the primary driver in the SF, although they've lost their luster a bit since Steve Shondell retired. 

Irony of ironies

For like 11 of 12 years Brownstown VB loses to Burris in the VB tournament. Depending on the draw, sometimes championship game sometimes not. Brownstown gets bumped to 3A for enrollment and get placed in the Providence sectional and Shondel retires and Burris loses in their sectional. 

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On 8/8/2022 at 3:52 PM, Footballking16 said:

That's not at all how the SF works, good Lord.

The SF bumps up a specific athletic program temporarily who has found success in their current class. A multiplier, which most of these posters are advocating, artificially increases a school's enrollment which in turn bumps up every athletic program, regardless of success. There's zero reason why Chatard's basketball team should be playing in the 4A tournament because their football team is a dominant 3A school. That's what a multiplier does.

Not your best day today Muda. 

The flaws in an enrollment based classification system, of which the SF is just band aid, cannot be fixed.  A true system of promotion & relegation, where grades 9-12 enrollment is taken entirely out of the equation, is the logical step.

 

1 hour ago, Impartial_Observer said:

Irony of ironies

For like 11 of 12 years Brownstown VB loses to Burris in the VB tournament. Depending on the draw, sometimes championship game sometimes not. Brownstown gets bumped to 3A for enrollment and get placed in the Providence sectional and Shondel retires and Burris loses in their sectional. 

Muncie Burris has more in common with a p/p than it does a traditional government school high school.

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14 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

The flaws in an enrollment based classification system, of which the SF is just band aid, cannot be fixed.  A true system of promotion & relegation, where grades 9-12 enrollment is taken entirely out of the equation, is the logical step.

 

Muncie Burris has more in common with a p/p than it does a traditional government school high school.

It’s a lab school for Ball State and when Shondel was there it was IMG for Volleyball. 

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On 8/8/2022 at 10:01 AM, Footballking16 said:

Saw Cathedral's enrollment is under 1100 for the first time in awhile. It was pushing 1300 almost a decade ago. Heard Chatard is hurting as well, had less than 30 freshman football players last year if what I was told is true. 

I've been told that Cathedral is trying to cap enrollment at 1100 or so.  There just isn't much room on the hill.

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1 hour ago, Impartial_Observer said:

It’s a lab school for Ball State and when Shondel was there it was IMG for Volleyball. 

Yep.  Also students from the Indiana Academy for Science, Mathematics, and Humanities take most if not all of their courses in the Burris building. And those students at the Academy who wish to participate in extracurricular  athletics play on Burris teams.

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6 hours ago, Impartial_Observer said:

It’s a lab school for Ball State and when Shondel was there it was IMG for Volleyball. 

In a lot of ways, Burris (and when they existed, Bloomington University and Terre Haute State) were the state's first charter schools. 

Burris says it is a public school whose boundaries are the state borders. 

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22 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Not feasible or practical for high school athletics. 

I wholly agree.  Promotion and relegation works for leagues that pay their players and can trade/recruit the world. 

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On 8/8/2022 at 3:32 PM, Footballking16 said:

For every one P/P who wins a football state championship, there’s a dozen more who aren’t competitive in many of their other athletic programs.

Illinois, which has a multiplier (1.65x) actually has an "anti-success factor" where the multiplier is waived if you haven't won the equivalent of a sectional in something like the last four years. The multiplier is also applied to charter schools, not just p/ps. 

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6 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said:

Illinois, which has a multiplier (1.65x) actually has an "anti-success factor" where the multiplier is waived if you haven't won the equivalent of a sectional in something like the last four years. 

Is it only for the evil Catholic/Christian schools?

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2 hours ago, crimsonace1 said:

Illinois, which has a multiplier (1.65x) actually has an "anti-success factor" where the multiplier is waived if you haven't won the equivalent of a sectional in something like the last four years. The multiplier is also applied to charter schools, not just p/ps. 

This is smart.  I like the idea of the multiplier...and removing it if the school never has any success in a given sport.  

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1 hour ago, crimsonace1 said:

Illinois applies the multiplier to what it terms "non-boundaried schools," so charter schools also. 

With open enrollment, wouldn't most schools in Indiana be considered "non-boundaried" or "semi-boundaried."

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