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Hahahahaha....you wanna talk about "EGO!?!?" How much of an ego do you need to have to just honestly believe "we win because we just WORK HARDER, have a better FEEDER SYSTEM and it is our CULTURE." Like no one else has figured out those things. That, sir, is an EGO.

So I'm not sure I qualify as the guy you are looking to answer. My parents both had Catholic education all of their life with my mom finishing from a Catholic college and my dad leaving Catholic college for the military and then finishing from a public university. I went to Catholic school through 6th grade and then did public school for everything else through college. Two of my kids have attended Catholic school, but all have also been homeschooled and attended public schools ... my three girls from Jeff and my oldest son finishing at Harrison this year and the youngest probably attending Harrison part-time for high school. Nonetheless, I've been thinking about this issue for a bit and frankly, haven't yet been able to come up with a set of items that works for the argument as to why p/ps, in general win, that can then be applied across the board. What I have been leaning toward though is something akin to the idea that it's less categories and more programs. When I look at the issue in short timeframes, like this thread does every season, it's fairly easy to generalize. Even when several short-terms are pieced together, that generalization is easy, but some things don't seem to specifically match up with the general premise. With that said, I'm coming at this very much so from an Indiana perspective with some additional insights from Texas and Louisiana; but mainly Indiana. The premise has often been, if there isn't some advantage, then how does x percentage win y percent of the time? @Bobref has pretty much trademarked on GID that correlation doesn't necessarily indicate causation. That got me to thinking through some things that, rather than focusing on the generalities and trying to make an all-encompassing theory, I'd look at some case studies and try to work from there. Also, and I don't recall who it was that asked the question in another thread, but what got me thinking about this was a general question that was asked about 6A ... which was never really fully answered or even really solidified. The question was, and is very similar to the question first posited in the thread, "Why is it that only four teams/programs have ever won 6A?" It went on to, and rightly so, point out that there weren't similarities between the schools as there are differences in size, FRL items, communities, offenses/defenses, etc. It just kind of ended up as a mystery. Four teams out of roughly 40 teams that have been in and out of 6A since its inception 11 years ago, roughly 10%, have not only won SOME of the titles, but ALL of the titles in that class. What is the categorization that defines that four programs that you could "bottle" or is it something much more complex that can't fit on a bumper sticker? So let me start and see if the idea can perhaps be expanded by others with some real discussion on things. The program that I'm most familiar with is LCC. A couple of my kids attended Catholic school until the 3rd and 5th grade, but I coached in a youth program there for 18 seasons. LCC first started playing ball back in 1958. As seen in a couple of other threads currently in play, while LCC has a mystique about it that has it mentioned as a storied p/p powerhouse, it's really been about the last 15 years or so that LCC has probably earned that mystique. It entered into a storied four-peat era back in 2009-2012, but prior to that, it was pretty much feast or famine according to season outcomes on Harrell's. So I'll ask the first question that catches my eye with LCC and the statements often made about p/p in general. If p/p have the automatic advantage, why did LCC have such gaps between its pre-four-peat timeframe? Starting from 1976, until 2009 ... a 34-year period ... LCC got out of sectionals four times with gaps of 13, 10, and 6 years between each. Incidentally, in every season for LCC, until 2021, when their season ended without a state title, it came at the hands of public schools ... only the last three seasons, in 2A, has LCC's season been ended by another p/p. BTW, not just one p/p-killer public school, although Pioneer has a storied tradition for jousting with LCC, but over a dozen public schools have delivered deathblows to LCC's post season. So if the idea that there's an inherent p/p advantage that LCC has, then why was it not there in force in the 34-year period and, probably more importantly, what were the MANY public schools doing that was causing LCC seasons to end really early in that timeframe? Of course, Noll is always mentioned. Noll has a very storied past in that it never seemed to have any p/p mojo outside of 1989 when it won 3A. Outside of that, according to Harrell's, Noll made it to a sectional championship only three times, never making it out of the sectional, and has been ousted in the first game of sectionals for the last decade ... all by public teams. Ritter has an amazing past. Five state titles with three in 1A and two in 2A. For a long time, they were one of the poster children for p/p dominance, but now, closing in on a decade, no one whispers their name anymore. Their last state title was in 2016; however, since then, they haven't made it out of a sectional. They've also not even been close oustings. The closest they got was this year's 23-point second sectional game loss to Eastern Hancock. Maybe they have a string of "bad classes" ... the opposite of those "good classes" that public school lament might SF them unfairly into the next higher class ... but, for all of the talk about p/p mojo, four losing seasons in the last seven and three of the last four would seem to indicate that reloading, which is fairly automatic for p/p schools as I've been told, would seem worrisome and not in line with the meme. Heritage Christian ... an often forgotten p/p ... maybe because they aren't Catholic. Only has around a two-decade history history according to Harrell's. Has back-to-back state appearances in 2007-2008 with one blue ring. Outside of that, two sectional titles in 2019-2020. Has a mix of being ousted by both public and private schools. Fairly good records, but not really drawing any of the p/p ire directed at the categorization as a whole. Culver Academy has been around since the mid-1980s, yet only has a pair of sectional titles spaced a decade and a half apart ... 2000 and 2015. Again, almost never referred to or draws the ire of the p/p category and I've NEVER in over two decades of being in Indiana ever once heard anyone talk about the unfair advantage that Culver Academy has, not only as a p/p, but a p/p that has had students on its rosters from foreign countries! Wanna talk about recruiting or being outside of a youth program circle? Also, Culver Academy used to be Culver Military Academies, so I'm pretty sure that their lack of state titles wasn't due to not being competitive. Again, I don't have a specific answer to your question because the general answer that folks hope is given doesn't fit with all of the categorization. Just the subset above actually refutes the generalized statements that tend to be made. Also, I see the issue as being more complex than many of the bumper-sticker takes that have been bantered around. I think there's something to be said for focused, driven groups in a school, but similarly, I would contend that Noll, LCC, and others have been equally focused, driven, etc., if the narratives are to be fully-embraced, but the outcomes don't seem similar. With that said, what I think MAY be an issue is that there may be advantages that come from said make-ups, but that they aren't uniformly autonomous and that what's actually happening, which dovetails back into the 6A questions is that programs, and not necessarily categories, have figured out how to wield/harness the power as opposed to demographics. I also believe that, and Ritter and LCC look like interesting cases for this, that while a program may be able to leverage some type of advantage, it isn't necessarily something that's inherent and automatic by birthright of categorization and, for example in the case of Ritter, it may be something that isn't eternal.

That’s because there is no “across the board.” That’s why the success factor is the best solution. A multiplier or a class bump treats all P/Ps the same, and that does not reflect reality. In what universe are Chatard and Bishop Noll to be treated alike in order to level the playing field? The success factor (at least, conceptually) identifies those programs that traditionally punch above their weight class and moves them into the class where history says they belong.

Our conference is about to go back to 4 private schools, 4 public schools. We dont have time to complain about any advantages there may be against us. We play who is in front of us. The names on the front of they jersey mean absolutely nothing on the football field. It is still 11 on 11 football. Our schedule this coming year... Greencastle and Linton OOC, and then Ritter/Scecina/Covenant Christan/Lutheran as well as Triton Central/Speedway and Beech Grove. We believe this schedule gets us ready to play anyone in our tournament.

Well, did you say you wanted to transfer him for athletic purposes, or that you wanted to better prepare him for college? Those are two entirely different things. If this was our AD, then I would say he handled it exactly as we would want - put the prospective family in touch with the Enrollment Director.

Perhaps.....but the weekly competition might have also taken its toll. Hard to predict. But he does seem like a talented young man. I think sometimes being from a big school and a top program at the 6A level doesn't always help. I think some prefer the awards go elsewhere......Also being from the same area can also hurt....candidates can cancel each other out.

Agreed. That sums it up for the most part. People have forgotten that 4A New Pal AND 4A Columbus East both had teams during that period that were operating at the level of this year’s East Central team….not just for 1 year but several years. It was almost impossible to run the 4A gamut and earn the needed 4 points to stay up during that time….let alone beat Roncalli in Sectional year after year. I, too, think the IHSAA went the wrong direction in raising it to 3 points from 2 points (I really would like to know their reasoning for this change). Frankly, they should lower it to 1 point. If you can win a Sectional in a bumped up class 50% of the time that seems pretty definitive that you can compete effectively in that class and indicative that you truly belong in that class. I’m pretty certain that if it had only required 1 point to stay “up” in 2013, Chatard would STILL be in 4A starting then…..and that’s with them sharing a Sectional with Roncalli (which I will contend is a bad pairing if the IHSAA really was committed to the intent of the SF). I think everybody here that’s paid attention knows I’ve LONG wanted to see Chatard a fixture in 4A (but with the ability to potentially move up even more via the Success Factor). I think that an improved SF remains the way v. automatic bumps or multipliers. If anyone remembers, I was strongly opposed to the SF back in the day and advocated an automatic bump. I’ve had a lot of years to reconsider and have come around that the automatic bump for EVERY P/P school in EVERY sport (boys and girls) because a handful of schools have extraordinary football success simply isn’t the right or fair approach. Bump schools in the sport tge punch above class in but leave everything else alone. The SF seems the only way to get this right.

I'm not insinuating anything. Just curious as East Central had a 43 point average margin of victory this year. I'd assume the kid could have put up even more yards and TD's if they were involved in close contests in the second half. I've already stated he is my winner and it should be a slam dunk.

Technically and under the old "1 point to stay up" - SR is STILL SF'd up from our original class from 2017 & 2018 season. Believe we might be the longest tenured public school (maybe New Pal) that was SF'd up and stay up. 2017 - State Champ .....2018- Semi-State (bumped up to 3A) 2019-HH bounced during sectional (no points) ...2020 made it semi state (stay up in 3A) 2021- bounced in sectional (no points)....2022 Sectional champs (stay up in 3A) 2023 - bounced in sectional by HH....

I thought the officiating was pretty good in the state game with the one glaring miss. I'm sure that official knows he missed it and probably feels worse than most. It happens. He's human.

New Palestine

A couple of things to be careful of with Chatard is that the reason that they aren't still in 4A has little to do with the IDEA of SF not working and much more to do with anomalies. As such, I'm not all that worried about Chatard in the long run having an impact on the landscape. Realize that Chatard has been in 4A twice under SF: In 2013, they ran into New Pal in its ascendancy toward a 2014 state title. Likely half a dozen other sectionals and they would have gotten more points. In 2014, they dropped a post-season game to Roncalli. The problem with the 2013-2014 SF cycle is that it required 4 POINTS to stay up. Cathedral is the only team that I recall that was part of the inaugural SF crowd that actually remained on POINTS ... a couple of others went for SF and stayed for enrollment. Even without running into New Pal in 2013, I think the chances of most teams garnering 4 points would be hard to see happening. Even LCC, who headed to semi-state and dropped a 3-point game with the eventual 2A winner in 2014, RCHS, only picked up a total of 2 points on the cycle. I would not count the 2013-2014 SF cycle as an indicator for any data points because the 4-point stay requirement was high-flawed and basically made the first SF cycle more like a beta test, at best, than anything else. In 2021, they went up again, but only stayed for a single season due to the "COVID factor" and the IHSAA sticking them in a sectional with Roncalli. That year, LCC had 1 point in 2A and stayed up and Chatard had 0 points in 4A and dropped back down. The two-year cycle problem was even worse as a one-year cycle. In essence, I wouldn't necessarily say that Chatard not staying up in 4A is something that will require them figuring out "how to get better" or weather 4A. The two times that they ended up in 4A were both not what I would consider regular cycles for figuring potential/trends given the stay-point flaw and the COVID anomaly treatment. Incidentally, I think the IHSAA is making a mistake moving from a 2-point stay requirement to a 3-point stay requirement. Pretty much that means if you don't make it out of sectionals in any year of the cycle, you need a ring the next year to stay ... and that's getting into anomaly territory again.

It just means he is too attached to his narrative.

Thank you for posting this. When looking at your LCC paragraph I'm not sure what the answer was prior to the four-peat. Just a little bit before my time. Obviously the game of football has changed just a little bit since then, so the style of play could have factored into that possibly. My dad has always told me at the end of the day, no matter how good of a coach you are, if you don't have some dudes on your team, making a deep run in the tournament is difficult. The stars and sectionals can all aline, because we are in Indiana, for you to get a good draw and make a deep run with an average team and really good coaching. But eventually you are gonna run into a team with better dudes than you have. My only argument and frustration comes from the rate at which some of these p/p's, not all of them which you did a great job of pointing out and going into detail about, are reloading year after year. Can public schools do it to an extent? Yes but it doesn't seem to always happen as quickly as the p/p's. When an off year for a team is a sectional and regional championship, I'd say that ain't too bad. I agree. We shouldn't just throw all the p/p's in their own division because I stated this in another thread early in the season when in the right class they make the class as a whole and the football in it better. Example, take a look at Rochester over the past four years. Started 0-10 four years ago. Every year the mindset is we have to beat LCC, everything that is done is to beat them. Haven't been able to do it, but we have reaped the rewards in the regular season by winning a lot more games because of what the mindset is leading up to the season and the work put in. Chatard in 3A a little different. Unlike LCC, Chatard hasn't been able to stay up in 4A, so they come back down right when things seem to be looking up and rattle off two more state championships and then its back to 4A. So how do we fix this? I think we have to realign sectionals and classes every year. Put the SF on a 4 year cycle like many have said, but the one adjustment is if a team wins a state championship move them up into the next class the following year. Where it gets hairy is how to determine keeping the team up or down and for how long in that remaining 3 or less years. This is something I wouldn't be good at determining but maybe someone could help me out with this part. I think this would help with those 2 peat public teams that have a good class that wins two state championships and then dips for the classes under them to get beat up on for two straight years. It also gives a Chatard more time to see if they can break through that 4A wall they can't seem to get through. It also gets a team out of a class faster after winning a state championship. Again not perfect, put it's a suggestion to this problem we think we have that can move the stronger p/p's around easier while not punishing those that aren't the strongest football programs.

I've said this before, and David Bell was AWESOME, but you could seriously make a case that Romeir Elliott was the best player on that Warren team. At least the most impactful. He rushed for ~3100 yards, 38 TD's and had another 200 receiving yards and 3 TDs. You won't find many 6A backs who play on an undefeated state championship team with those kind of stats who didn't win Mr. Football. I'm not even sure he was considered.

https://www.pdclarion.com/sports/2023-all-county-football-team-is-a-power-packed-squad/article_fee184f6-2b68-59b8-9499-cf706a22fe72.html

LCC Football Captains for the 1971 Football Season! Rob Reuzenaar Mark Stodgell Chico Hatke Mitch Clayton rushed for 2473 yards and scored 49 td's to help LCC win state in 1999. Eric Anthrop was the QB on that 1999 team. Central Catholic dropped out of the Hoosier Conference after the 1975 season, and rejoined the Hoosier in 1980. The Knights severed ties with the conference due to the fact the other schools were all Class AA in football and wanted the Knights to declare as Class AA

Appreciate it!

I enjoy the discussion. I have no problem admitting that overall, our student population at Memorial has a much higher percentage of motivated students than the typical public school our size. But the larger percentage of those motivated kids participate in extra-curriculars other than football too. I think we had 23 on the freshman team this season. We usually have decent retention from year to year, so a combined V/JV roster of 60 or so is about the norm. To me, the difference between a Chatard and others is that Chatard has a deep football culture. Much in the way Mater Dei has a deep wrestling culture. I have no problem with a system that could accurately account for the differences between public and p/p schools, but I have little confidence it can be done objectively and accurately, and even less confidence it could be implemented by the IHSAA. I can't speak for any other areas of the state, but Memorial and MD are not pulling kids from a large geographic area. Most of our kids are products of the feeder schools, with a few kids sprinkled in whose parents want more than what our neighboring public schools can provide and the voucher makes it attainable. But it isn't a big number.

IHSAA:

See @foxbat. They are easy to find.