USA Today Network media poll Week 2

[btownqbcoach1]

47 minutes ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

We could go to neutral site games for Semi-State.

Notre Dame will host if the game is between teams from the Region v Fort Wayne or Fort Wayne v Carmel/Westfield.

Due to the central location of the St. Joe and Elkhart County schools, Purdue or Ball State may have to be host to those games. 

Butler or U of Indy can host all indy area school semi-state games.

Purdue can host games from the Region to Northwest Indy to the state line 

IU can handle the southern portion of the state. 

Just spit balling here. This would force both schools to travel giving no one this advantage of not having to get on a bus and drive....

But, then again do we decentralize the state title games? 

I say leave it alone, and let the cards fall where they may. Sometimes you will get blowouts and sometimes you will get amazing football games. 

 

I would prefer not to use the universities. 

In the South--Columbus East, Col North, Seymour, Brownstown, Bloom S, Bloom N, Floyd (they have away bleachers now right?), Southridge, if Jasper would get turf... would all be excellent hosting locations. 

Even Franklin Community would be a solid location-- depending on the teams. 

 

I love the idea of trying neutral site semi-states though. 

[BLACKGOLD2007]

1 hour ago, Boilernation said:

Elkhart feels llike a bigger version of Hammond Morton to me: They'll look good physically and roll out a few D1 recruits, but they're not beating anyone of significance. I would swap them with Merrillville. All jokes aside on the Pirates and how they fit into my first sentence, but they've at least proven at both the 5A and 6A level they can win true North Sectionals and Regionals.

Yes, ignoring the logistical nightmare, that would be an ideal setup. I have a feeling we'll eventually get close to it when the NIC finally folds and the DAC expands east to take Elkhart and Penn. 

I don't think you are going to get Penn or Elkhart to move with out the other at this point. There have been a lot of noticeable changes to games when Penn and Elkhart play in football or Basketball. It feels like they are trying to build up a bigger rivalry between the schools. 

The NIC used to be held up by the Penn Mishawaka rivalry, but now with the NIC being a shell of its former self, the two big schools are coming closer together then they used to be. 

 

1 hour ago, Boilernation said:

Elkhart feels llike a bigger version of Hammond Morton to me: They'll look good physically and roll out a few D1 recruits, but they're not beating anyone of significance. I would swap them with Merrillville. All jokes aside on the Pirates and how they fit into my first sentence, but they've at least proven at both the 5A and 6A level they can win true North Sectionals and Regionals.

Yes, ignoring the logistical nightmare, that would be an ideal setup. I have a feeling we'll eventually get close to it when the NIC finally folds and the DAC expands east to take Elkhart and Penn. 

I don't think you are going to get Penn or Elkhart to move with out the other at this point. There have been a lot of noticeable changes to games when Penn and Elkhart play in football or Basketball. It feels like they are trying to build up a bigger rivalry between the schools. 

The NIC used to be held up by the Penn Mishawaka rivalry, but now with the NIC being a shell of its former self, the two big schools are coming closer together then they used to be. 

 

[tango]

3 minutes ago, btownqbcoach1 said:

I would prefer not to use the universities. 

In the South--Columbus East, Col North, Seymour, Brownstown, Bloom S, Bloom N, Floyd (they have away bleachers now right?), Southridge, if Jasper would get turf... would all be excellent hosting locations. 

Even Franklin Community would be a solid location-- depending on the teams. 

 

I love the idea of trying neutral site semi-states though. 

Who will provide workers at the site? The universities? 

[btownqbcoach1]

Just now, tango said:

Who will provide workers at the site? The universities? 

That's a good point about that in regards to playing on a campus. 

[BLACKGOLD2007]

Sorry I am having issues with my computer. It keeps posting the same thing. I apologize

 

Edited August 28, 2024 by BLACKGOLD2007

[BLACKGOLD2007]

5 minutes ago, tango said:

Who will provide workers at the site? The universities? 

If you do neutral site high schools, you could have the host school provide boosters or teams to work the concessions and gates.

At the universities likely the IHSAA would have to work out a deal with the school to provide staff, and the gate fees will either go up or a larger portion will go to the school itself. The benefit for the schools is they get all concession revenue and they don't have to have more than one or two bays open on each side of the field. Less workers needed more overall revenue.  

In the North Penn or School field would be good hosting sites....depending on the size of the schools. Penn would be better fit for the 4A and larger schools. School field would be a perfect fit for 1A-3A schools. 

[PDB26]

6 minutes ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

I don't think you are going to get Penn or Elkhart to move with out the other at this point. There have been a lot of noticeable changes to games when Penn and Elkhart play in football or Basketball. It feels like they are trying to build up a bigger rivalry between the schools. 

The NIC used to be held up by the Penn Mishawaka rivalry, but now with the NIC being a shell of its former self, the two big schools are coming closer together then they used to be.

Penn erred by not leaving the NIC without Mishawaka in the early 00s and it would be an error to hold out for Elkhart's inclusion should Penn have the opportunity to join the DAC without them. That said, I think the DAC would need to add two schools to give itself some flexibility in scheduling while providing value to all the members.

4 minutes ago, tango said:

Who will provide workers at the site? The universities? 

Depends on the deal, but ND is loathe to rent facilities without also guaranteeing/requiring the presence of its ushers. ND's concessionaire would almost certainly have rights to the event. Certainly, the facility manager would be there. 

[tango]

9 minutes ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

If you do neutral site high schools, you could have the host school provide boosters or teams to work the concessions and gates.

I think it would be a big challenge to get boosters to work gates, concessions, etc. in late November if their school wasn't participating. 

10 minutes ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

At the universities likely the IHSAA would have to work out a deal with the school to provide staff, and the gate fees will either go up or a larger portion will go to the school itself. The benefit for the schools is they get all concession revenue and they don't have to have more than one or two bays open on each side of the field. Less workers needed more overall revenue.  

Those universities also have games in November. Concession revenue for Purdue or IU from a couple thousand people is not going to move the needle enough to make the venture worthwhile. The IHSAA adding the additional costs to the ticket price would drive down attendance even more than having two schools drive to a neutral site.

The reason Lucas Oil works is because the Colts cover the costs of the facility. 

[PDB26]

3 minutes ago, tango said:

Those universities also have games in November. Concession revenue for Purdue or IU from a couple thousand people is not going to move the needle enough to make the venture worthwhile. The IHSAA adding the additional costs to the ticket price would drive down attendance even more than having two schools drive to a neutral site.

The reason Lucas Oil works is because the Colts cover the costs of the facility. 

Agreed, I don't think I'm too far out on a limb when I say ND would not be interested in this deal.

[BLACKGOLD2007]

4 minutes ago, tango said:

I think it would be a big challenge to get boosters to work gates, concessions, etc. in late November if their school wasn't participating. 

Those universities also have games in November. Concession revenue for Purdue or IU from a couple thousand people is not going to move the needle enough to make the venture worthwhile. The IHSAA adding the additional costs to the ticket price would drive down attendance even more than having two schools drive to a neutral site.

The reason Lucas Oil works is because the Colts cover the costs of the facility. 

Like I said in my original post, leave the system alone, because moving it away from a participating schools looks to be too much of a hurdle for either high school sites or university sites. 

[tango]

Just now, PDB26 said:

Agreed, I don't think I'm too far out on a limb when I say ND would not be interested in this deal.

Yes, it's a completely unrealistic proposition for football. I cannot imagine anything worse than watch two schools play a semi-state in front of 3,000 fans in a stadium that can hold 60,000. 

 

1 minute ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

Like I said in my original post, leave the system alone, because moving it away from a participating schools looks to be too much of a hurdle for either high school sites or university sites. 

Agreed. The IHSAA gets all the gate after the first 200 tickets are sold from Regional and Semi-State. They aren't going to change that any time soon.  

[PDB26]

12 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

-Non-Indy area teams in the state finals (North Bracket) have lost by these margins: Valpo 19, Snider 24, Penn 50, Snider 12, Penn 54, Snider 25, Penn 12, Penn 49, Carroll 26, Crown Point 28 for an avg 30ppg 

-Conversely, Indy area teams in the state finals (North bracket) have lost by these margins: HSE 35, Carmel 21, Carmel 3, Carmel 6 (OT), Carmel 1, Carmel 18, Carmel 20, Westfield 24, Westfield 6 for an avg 14ppg 

For the most part, for as good as Carmel and Center Grove have been, I'd say it's BD and WC that have always generated the most lopsided scores. That doesn't change much of the analysis, but I think history bears out that a championship caliber team at either of those schools is more likely than not to run it up at state. This held true before 6A. I think the only difference is offenses are more explosive now––so the margins get way out there sometimes––but Penn was on the wrong end of some ugly beatings at the hands of BD in the 90s even if they were just three score games.

[BLACKGOLD2007]

8 minutes ago, PDB26 said:

Penn erred by not leaving the NIC without Mishawaka in the early 00s and it would be an error to hold out for Elkhart's inclusion should Penn have the opportunity to join the DAC without them. That said, I think the DAC would need to add two schools to give itself some flexibility in scheduling while providing value to all the members.

Penn did drop the ball then, I would not be surprised at all if Penn and Elkhart go different directions. Elkhart is a better fit in the NLC, geographically speaking and culture wise. 

However, based on things I have seen the past couple seasons in two of the big sports, is that Elkhart and Penn are trying to come closer together. 

I would not be surprised if they try a package deal to the DAC. But, if Penn gets the offer and Elkhart doesn't, Penn has to go. 

If Penn goes to the DAC alone, I would not be surprised if MCity or maybe LaPorte drop out of the DAC. I would take the opportunity to see Mville, CP and Valpo each year. If MCity and LaPorte both leave, then I think that is even better. That is two more non-conference games that we can get back on the schedule. 

I would like to see Penn add Westfield, Carmel, Snider, Carroll, Center Grove, Ben Davis, Warren, HSE or Fishers to the schedule. 

[Boilernation]

34 minutes ago, PDB26 said:

Penn erred by not leaving the NIC without Mishawaka in the early 00s and it would be an error to hold out for Elkhart's inclusion should Penn have the opportunity to join the DAC without them. That said, I think the DAC would need to add two schools to give itself some flexibility in scheduling while providing value to all the members.

Agreed regarding early '00's. IIRC, the DAC offered Penn and Mishawaka but they wouldn't go without Elkhart Central, who the DAC wouldn't take. Do Penn fans want to be in the DAC? Or just have a "meh" feeling about it? It seems like we've gotten to the point that Penn is on a majority of schedules in all sports for DAC teams. 

 

[PDB26]

10 minutes ago, Boilernation said:

Agreed regarding early '00's. IIRC, the DAC offered Penn and Mishawaka but they wouldn't go without Elkhart Central, who the DAC wouldn't take. Do Penn fans want to be in the DAC? Or just have a "meh" feeling about it? It seems like we've gotten to the point that Penn is on a majority of schedules in all sports for DAC teams. 

My mistake, I forgot that is the way it went––which makes it even worse given the state of Central's program back then. Penn's teams play so many games against Duneland members that it would seem to be a fairly seamless integration into the conference. Can't really speak to whether there is a consensus among the fans on conference affiliation, but there might be after a 7 game NIC season this year.

[BLACKGOLD2007]

43 minutes ago, Boilernation said:

Agreed regarding early '00's. IIRC, the DAC offered Penn and Mishawaka but they wouldn't go without Elkhart Central, who the DAC wouldn't take. Do Penn fans want to be in the DAC? Or just have a "meh" feeling about it? It seems like we've gotten to the point that Penn is on a majority of schedules in all sports for DAC teams. 

 

The biggest issue right now is that a majority of the fans at Penn home games are 4 year football parents and band parents. They don't care which direction the program goes after they are done. 

I bet if you lay out the pro and con of staying in the NIC or leaving for the DAC the hardcore fans would go with the DAC.

22 minutes ago, PDB26 said:

My mistake, I forgot that is the way it went––which makes it even worse given the state of Central's program back then. Penn's teams play so many games against Duneland members that it would seem to be a fairly seamless integration into the conference. Can't really speak to whether there is a consensus among the fans on conference affiliation, but there might be after a 7 game NIC season this year.

If we drop 500 yards of offense a game this season, I think it is time to level up on the competition. 

[BTF]

8 hours ago, FastpacedO said:

Yes, Absolutely we can say that Avon is terrible. 

Since everyone on here loves Sagarin so much:

Avon ended last season within a field goal of Northwood, Indy Lutheran, Valpo, Franklin Central, Lawrence Central, Carmel, Reitz, and Leo.

Ranked higher than: Carroll, Mishawaka, Adams Central, Merrillville, Heritage Hills, and Warsaw. 

Football in Indiana is in a "terrible" state of affairs apparently.

[Footballking16]

47 minutes ago, BTF said:

Since everyone on here loves Sagarin so much:

Avon ended last season within a field goal of Northwood, Indy Lutheran, Valpo, Franklin Central, Lawrence Central, Carmel, Reitz, and Leo.

Ranked higher than: Carroll, Mishawaka, Adams Central, Merrillville, Heritage Hills, and Warsaw. 

Football in Indiana is in a "terrible" state of affairs apparently.

Avon is a 4th tier big class program in Indianapolis at the moment. They are the whipping boy of the HCC. The loser of Avon/Zionsville might not win a game this year. However, they are still objectively better than all but one or two SAC/DAC 6A programs. Just speaks to depth of football in Central Indiana.

[BTF]

4 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Avon is a 4th tier big class program in Indianapolis at the moment. They are the whipping boy of the HCC. The loser of Avon/Zionsville might not win a game this year. However, they are still objectively better than all but one or two SAC/DAC 6A programs. Just speaks to depth of football in Central Indiana.

So they're not "terrible?" You're not stupid, actually one of the smarter posters on this forum, so I'll use your post as validation that Lafayette Jeff didn't beat a terrible program. 

[FastpacedO]

1 hour ago, BTF said:

Since everyone on here loves Sagarin so much:

Avon ended last season within a field goal of Northwood, Indy Lutheran, Valpo, Franklin Central, Lawrence Central, Carmel, Reitz, and Leo.

Ranked higher than: Carroll, Mishawaka, Adams Central, Merrillville, Heritage Hills, and Warsaw. 

Football in Indiana is in a "terrible" state of affairs apparently.

Where in any of my posts have I mentioned Sagarin? To me Sagarin is flawed because we have teams that play out of state opponents not accounted for in Sagarin.

[BTF]

7 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

Where in any of my posts have I mentioned Sagarin? To me Sagarin is flawed because we have teams that play out of state opponents not accounted for in Sagarin.

I should have stated "many", "most", or "by and large." By stating "everyone", that implied you as well. It does have it's flaws, but I think it gives a as good of a read on our sport as anything. It's just not the 'be all end all' like some think it is. 

I actually think this is a ridiculous conversation. To imply that that Avon is terrible is to imply that over 290 of Indiana's 316 are also "terrible." Indianapolis has dominated football for so long, and for the most part, still do. I hate that Indy posters get so defensive when a team from Indy does lose. Give Jeff some credit for crying out loud. 

[temptation]

41 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Avon is a 4th tier big class program in Indianapolis at the moment. They are the whipping boy of the HCC. The loser of Avon/Zionsville might not win a game this year. However, they are still objectively better than all but one or two SAC/DAC 6A programs. Just speaks to depth of football in Central Indiana.

Gimme Avon 4th in the SAC/DAC FWIW.

[Komets2727]

7 minutes ago, temptation said:

Gimme Avon 4th in the SAC/DAC FWIW.

Until recently, I would say Avon 6th, but now you are probably right 

[Titan32]

7 hours ago, btownqbcoach1 said:

I would prefer not to use the universities. 

In the South--Columbus East, Col North, Seymour, Brownstown, Bloom S, Bloom N, Floyd (they have away bleachers now right?), Southridge, if Jasper would get turf... would all be excellent hosting locations. 

Even Franklin Community would be a solid location-- depending on the teams. 

 

I love the idea of trying neutral site semi-states though. 

No love for the Titans Coach....I thought we had "something" LOL.

[Bears62]

33 minutes ago, BTF said:

I should have stated "many", "most", or "by and large." By stating "everyone", that implied you as well. It does have it's flaws, but I think it gives a as good of a read on our sport as anything. It's just not the 'be all end all' like some think it is. 

I actually think this is a ridiculous conversation. To imply that that Avon is terrible is to imply that over 290 of Indiana's 316 are also "terrible." Indianapolis has dominated football for so long, and for the most part, still do. I hate that Indy posters get so defensive when a team from Indy does lose. Give Jeff some credit for crying out loud. 

Jeff beat Westfield back in 2017 and Noblesville (4-3 in HCC that season) in 2018 in sectionals back-to-back years, yet I'm sure most are unaware. Like someone previously said, they are no slouch, they just rarely get the chance to prove themselves against quality competition due to the NCC being a pretty bad football conference overall.

Jeff also beat undefeated Crown Point 2 seasons ago on the road in Sectionals, before falling at home in Regionals by 1 to Carroll (who then beat HSE). People will come up with all sorts of excuses or reasoning to justify their opinion instead of giving credit where credit is due.

It may be a while until a Northern team gets to the level of beating a CG or BD or whoever the 6a big dog is, but with the volatility of high school football rosters year in and year out, it could happen sooner than a lot think. All it takes is a strong Junior & Senior class at a program that gets better every year to eventually get it done