Tournament History Question

[cpg1970]

I was scrolling through some tournament history and noticed that Tippecanoe Valley made it to the State Finals in '77, which they lost to Ritter, and again in '79, which they won against HSE. But I have a question about how they only played three tournament games to get there.  There was a Sectional, Regional, and State game.  Now it takes five or six games to reach the finals.  What were the playoffs like back then?

[TigerFan20]

1 hour ago, cpg1970 said:

I was scrolling through some tournament history and noticed that Tippecanoe Valley made it to the State Finals in '77, which they lost to Ritter, and again in '79, which they won against HSE. But I have a question about how they only played three tournament games to get there.  There was a Sectional, Regional, and State game.  Now it takes five or six games to reach the finals.  What were the playoffs like back then?

I believe teams had to qualify for the tournament back in the 70’s and only 12 teams could qualify in their division

[WCGrad92]

The first playoff format, used in 1973, divided the state into four quadrants and three classes. A total of 12 schools — four in each class and one from each quadrant — were selected for the state playoffs. In that scenario, a team could be undefeated but not voted to compete in the playoffs.

South Bend St. Joseph, after posting consecutive 10-0 seasons under the points system, actually sued the IHSAA after it didn’t qualify. While the school lost in court, changes were coming.

Over the ensuing years, additional teams were added, but some schools continued to be left out.

 

So if your team was voted in, you only had to win 3 games to win State.  In 1979 Monrovia lost to HSE in the 1st Rd on thier way to losing to TV in the State Finals.

[coachkj]

.

Edited September 19, 2024 by coachkj

[coachkj]

7 minutes ago, TigerFan20 said:

I believe teams had to qualify for the tournament back in the 70’s and only 12 teams could qualify in their division

WCGrad beat me to it.   Yes.  It was all based on a point system.  As I understand it some teams knew they couldn't make the playoffs based on their schedule even if they went undefeated. ( I could be wrong about that)  For the 83 and 84 seasons they tried the appropriately named "Cluster" System.  

1985 was the first year of the all in.

[FinePrint]

11 minutes ago, WCGrad92 said:

The first playoff format, used in 1973, divided the state into four quadrants and three classes. A total of 12 schools — four in each class and one from each quadrant — were selected for the state playoffs. In that scenario, a team could be undefeated but not voted to compete in the playoffs.

South Bend St. Joseph, after posting consecutive 10-0 seasons under the points system, actually sued the IHSAA after it didn’t qualify. While the school lost in court, changes were coming.

Over the ensuing years, additional teams were added, but some schools continued to be left out.

 

So if your team was voted in, you only had to win 3 games to win State.  In 1979 Monrovia lost to HSE in the 1st Rd on thier way to losing to TV in the State Finals.

There must have been 8 teams per class that qualified under that format.  I know Bremen lost to North Judson in the first round of 1A in 1979.  Then TV beat Judson in round 2 before winning the state title the third week.  So there had to be 8 teams.  And wasn't it a point system?  Not a vote.  I know Bremen went 7-3 in the regular season that year, but qualified over teams that had better records because Bremen beat several schools from 2A & 3A, which gave them more points.

[oldtimeqb]

9 minutes ago, coachkj said:

WCGrad beat me to it.   Yes.  It was all based on a point system.  As I understand it some teams knew they couldn't make the playoffs based on their schedule even if they went undefeated. ( I could be wrong about that)  For the 83 and 84 seasons they tried the appropriately named "Cluster" System.  

1985 was the first year of the all in.

We lived out of state during the 1980's, so I missed the "Cluster" system.  Although I have heard others mention the "Cluster Buster" format.  Not sure I really heard them right, or my memory has faded since it was explained to me. 

Did two teams really show up to play essentially an overtime - 4 plays from the 10 on offense and defense to determine the Cluster buster? 

[coachkj]

4 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

We lived out of state during the 1980's, so I missed the "Cluster" system.  Although I have heard others mention the "Cluster Buster" format.  Not sure I really heard them right, or my memory has faded since it was explained to me. 

Did two teams really show up to play essentially an overtime - 4 plays from the 10 on offense and defense to determine the Cluster buster? 

It really happened.  I know Warren Central was involved one.  There was one that the "championship" lasted only a few plays.  Team A scored in a few plays and kicked the PAT.  Team B turned it over on the first play from scrimmage.   

[Daniel_Bragg]

51 minutes ago, WCGrad92 said:

The first playoff format, used in 1973, divided the state into four quadrants and three classes. A total of 12 schools — four in each class and one from each quadrant — were selected for the state playoffs. In that scenario, a team could be undefeated but not voted to compete in the playoffs.

South Bend St. Joseph, after posting consecutive 10-0 seasons under the points system, actually sued the IHSAA after it didn’t qualify. While the school lost in court, changes were coming.

Over the ensuing years, additional teams were added, but some schools continued to be left out.

 

So if your team was voted in, you only had to win 3 games to win State.  In 1979 Monrovia lost to HSE in the 1st Rd on thier way to losing to TV in the State Finals.

Growing up in Sheridan, all I have ever heard about was how this system was the most unfair way to do things.  Several top teams from Sheridan were left out, and believe me, they still talk about it.  LOL!!

Edited September 19, 2024 by Daniel_Bragg

[Tippy]

In 1981 and 1982 four teams advancing in each of 12 districts made it on the basis of total rating points accumulated for the season.  In 1983 and 1984 they had the cluster system.  LCC was in a cluster with Attica, Clinton Prairie and Seeger.  They only team LCC could beat in 1983 and 1984 was Seeger.  Lafayette Jeff was in cluster 9 with Anderson, Kokomo, Logansport and Marion.  McCutcheon and Harrison were in a cluster with Brownsburg, Frankfort, Lebanon and North Montgomery.

WL coach Ernie Beck and LCC coach Keith Lehnen liked the idea of the cluster system.  Lafayette Jeff coach Dave Knott did not like the cluster system.

[Tippy]

1 hour ago, oldtimeqb said:

We lived out of state during the 1980's, so I missed the "Cluster" system.  Although I have heard others mention the "Cluster Buster" format.  Not sure I really heard them right, or my memory has faded since it was explained to me. 

Did two teams really show up to play essentially an overtime - 4 plays from the 10 on offense and defense to determine the Cluster buster? 

In the cluster system, if 3 or more teams tied, they participated in a mini playoff the Saturday following the last regular season game.  The IHSAA determined the pairings for the tied teams by a blind draw, and the format for overtime games was used.  Some teams could lose one cluster game finish 9-1 and not make the playoffs.

[Yuccaguy]

Just now, Yuccaguy said:

You can find this on Amazon.  I bought mine about 5 years ago.   GREAT READING....

And BTW....A fantastic GID Member also!   

[Tippy]

It's 1973 and it is the first year for the IN high school football playoffs.  There are 3 classes, AAA, AA, and A.  Lafayette Jeff is AAA, Harrison, West Lafayette, Benton Central AA, and LCC, Southwestern, and Wainwright A.  Classifications are made on the basis of male enrollment.  Any team which defeats an AAA team acquires 12 points toward selection for the football championship playoffs.  A victory over an AA team is worth 8 points, and a win over an A team 4 points.  It appeared that the IHSAA in planning the state football playoffs, made a mistake in "penalzing" large enrollment schools that schedule games with smaller schools.  The big question at Lafayette Jeff in 1973, was should Jeff play LCC, WL, Harrison and Benton Central and enable the Jeff Athletic department to show a sizable profit, or should the Bronchos continue to play the big name teams from distant points, and possibly earn a chance to play in the state championship playoffs, even though receipts from admissions may not be adequate to pay expenses.

[Muda69]

15 minutes ago, Yuccaguy said:

You can find this on Amazon.  I bought mine about 5 years ago.   GREAT READING....

And BTW....A fantastic GID Member also!   

Also a perfect picture of what a high school football playing surface should be. 

 

[FinePrint]

And it had major implications for conferences as well.  Bremen was the only 1A in the NLC at the time, and the 2A & 3A schools wanted Bremen out of the conference because they were penalized for playing that game.  

However, if I remember correctly, each school could choose 1 of their 10 games to eliminate from the playoff point calculation.  So most of the NLC teams would eliminate the Bremen game even though they would be highly favored to win most years.  It truly was a convoluted system!

[Irishman]

1 hour ago, Yuccaguy said:

You can find this on Amazon.  I bought mine about 5 years ago.   GREAT READING....

And BTW....A fantastic GID Member also!   

Not sure I wanna read it; still pissed about the tie breaker with us (WC), LN, and Perry Meridian. 

Sorry Rudy, nothing personal. 🙂

[jakone]

1 hour ago, Tippy said:

It's 1973 and it is the first year for the IN high school football playoffs.  There are 3 classes, AAA, AA, and A.  Lafayette Jeff is AAA, Harrison, West Lafayette, Benton Central AA, and LCC, Southwestern, and Wainwright A.  Classifications are made on the basis of male enrollment.  Any team which defeats an AAA team acquires 12 points toward selection for the football championship playoffs.  A victory over an AA team is worth 8 points, and a win over an A team 4 points.  It appeared that the IHSAA in planning the state football playoffs, made a mistake in "penalzing" large enrollment schools that schedule games with smaller schools.  The big question at Lafayette Jeff in 1973, was should Jeff play LCC, WL, Harrison and Benton Central and enable the Jeff Athletic department to show a sizable profit, or should the Bronchos continue to play the big name teams from distant points, and possibly earn a chance to play in the state championship playoffs, even though receipts from admissions may not be adequate to pay expenses.

Luers was 1a by enrollment but was forced to play in 3a.

[Tippy]

4 hours ago, jakone said:

Luers was 1a by enrollment but was forced to play in 3a.

I guess nobody wanted to play Luers if they were in 1A.  McCutcheon didn't want to play LCC because they were in 1A and wouldn't get as many points.  In 1977 Rensselaer went undefeated, yet didn't get to be in the playoffs because of their schedule-too many class A teams.

[Stoner]

8 hours ago, Tippy said:

It's 1973 and it is the first year for the IN high school football playoffs.  There are 3 classes, AAA, AA, and A.  Lafayette Jeff is AAA, Harrison, West Lafayette, Benton Central AA, and LCC, Southwestern, and Wainwright A.  Classifications are made on the basis of male enrollment.  Any team which defeats an AAA team acquires 12 points toward selection for the football championship playoffs.  A victory over an AA team is worth 8 points, and a win over an A team 4 points.  It appeared that the IHSAA in planning the state football playoffs, made a mistake in "penalzing" large enrollment schools that schedule games with smaller schools.  The big question at Lafayette Jeff in 1973, was should Jeff play LCC, WL, Harrison and Benton Central and enable the Jeff Athletic department to show a sizable profit, or should the Bronchos continue to play the big name teams from distant points, and possibly earn a chance to play in the state championship playoffs, even though receipts from admissions may not be adequate to pay expenses.

That’s not the way it worked. In ‘73, a Class A school got 3 points for beating a Class A opponent, 4 for beating a AA, and 5 for beating a AAA school.

Class AA schools got 2 points for beating an A, 3 for beating a AA, and 4 for beating a AAA.

Class AAA schools got 1 point for beating an A, 2 for beating a AA, and 3 for beating a AAA.

The one team with the best point average in their respective class from each of the four districts made the playoffs. The following year (‘74) a team that played 10 regular-season games could make one of those a scratch game if the opponent was in a higher or lower class. If you won (or lost) you didn’t get the points, but your total point sum was divided by 9.

Edited September 20, 2024 by Stoner

[NorthKnox94]

Here is was North Knox schedule and results from when they made to state championship game...and I believe it was played at Garrett...nothing like playing in state championship at opposing teams home field 3+ hours away...lol 1974 Results 189018911892189318941895189618971898189919001901190219031904190519061907190819091910191119121913191419151916191719181919192019211922192319241925192619271928192919301931193219331934193519361937193819391940194119421943194419451946194719481949195019511952195319541955195619571958195919601961196219631964196519661967196819691970197119721973197419751976197719781979198019811982198319841985198619871988198919901991199219931994199519961997199819992000200120022003200420052006200720082009201020112012201320142015201620172018201920202021202220232024   Date Opponent Score Aug. 30 Wood Memorial Loss 12-14 Sep. 6 Linton-Stockton Win 22-0 Sep. 13 West Washington Win 38-8 Sep. 20 North Central (Farmersburg) Win 27-14 Sep. 27 Washington Loss 8-15 Oct. 4 Mitchell @ Win 26-8 Oct. 11 Princeton Win 32-7 Oct. 18 North Daviess @ Win 51-0 Oct. 25 Sullivan Win 21-20 Nov. 1 Springs Valley @ Win 21-0 Nov. 9 Westfield Win 21-13 Nov. 16 Garrett Loss 6-20 @ - Blue Chip conference game

1 minute ago, NorthKnox94 said:

Here is was North Knox schedule and results from when they made to state championship game...and I believe it was played at Garrett...nothing like playing in state championship at opposing teams home field 3+ hours away...lol 1974 Results 189018911892189318941895189618971898189919001901190219031904190519061907190819091910191119121913191419151916191719181919192019211922192319241925192619271928192919301931193219331934193519361937193819391940194119421943194419451946194719481949195019511952195319541955195619571958195919601961196219631964196519661967196819691970197119721973197419751976197719781979198019811982198319841985198619871988198919901991199219931994199519961997199819992000200120022003200420052006200720082009201020112012201320142015201620172018201920202021202220232024   Date Opponent Score Aug. 30 Wood Memorial Loss 12-14 Sep. 6 Linton-Stockton Win 22-0 Sep. 13 West Washington Win 38-8 Sep. 20 North Central (Farmersburg) Win 27-14 Sep. 27 Washington Loss 8-15 Oct. 4 Mitchell @ Win 26-8 Oct. 11 Princeton Win 32-7 Oct. 18 North Daviess @ Win 51-0 Oct. 25 Sullivan Win 21-20 Nov. 1 Springs Valley @ Win 21-0 Nov. 9 Westfield Win 21-13 Nov. 16 Garrett Loss 6-20 @ - Blue Chip conference game

sorry for the stupid copy and paste...dont know why it did this...lol

[Stoner]

17 hours ago, jakone said:

Luers was 1a by enrollment but was forced to play in 3a.

Looked it up—Luers was a AA by enrollment—moved up to AAA, as did about 20 other schools initially.

[Tippy]

10 hours ago, Stoner said:

That’s not the way it worked. In ‘73, a Class A school got 3 points for beating a Class A opponent, 4 for beating a AA, and 5 for beating a AAA school.

Class AA schools got 2 points for beating an A, 3 for beating a AA, and 4 for beating a AAA.

Class AAA schools got 1 point for beating an A, 2 for beating a AA, and 3 for beating a AAA.

The one team with the best point average in their respective class from each of the four districts made the playoffs. The following year (‘74) a team that played 10 regular-season games could make one of those a scratch game if the opponent was in a higher or lower class. If you won (or lost) you didn’t get the points, but your total point sum was divided by 9.

 

That's the way they were going to do it 1973.  They must have changed it.

[Tippy]

11 hours ago, Stoner said:

That’s not the way it worked. In ‘73, a Class A school got 3 points for beating a Class A opponent, 4 for beating a AA, and 5 for beating a AAA school.

Class AA schools got 2 points for beating an A, 3 for beating a AA, and 4 for beating a AAA.

Class AAA schools got 1 point for beating an A, 2 for beating a AA, and 3 for beating a AAA.

The one team with the best point average in their respective class from each of the four districts made the playoffs. The following year (‘74) a team that played 10 regular-season games could make one of those a scratch game if the opponent was in a higher or lower class. If you won (or lost) you didn’t get the points, but your total point sum was divided by 9.

Sometime after July 1973 they went to point system you are talking about.  In 1974 to allow rivalries between squads of different classes, the IHSAA allowed a team to scratch one game.  Lafayette Jeff scratched Crawfordsville and Noblesville scratched providence.  It was a big mess.

[Gatorguy]

Here's an old example of the points system that used to run in the newspapers in the weeks leading up to the playoffs. 

Edited September 21, 2024 by Gatorguy

[Rudy]

Just to clarify, the teams in the original system weren't voted in, it was strictly on points.

I've thought about doing a prequel to my "What A Cluster" book with it based on the points system...maybe call it "What's the Point?" 🙂

Dan "Rudy" Engler

Edited September 21, 2024 by Rudy