End of Danville-Brebeuf game

[PHJIrish]

4 hours ago, oldtimeqb said:

Since we have some officials and some armchair officials in this thread, I have to ask about another play. 

Around 40 seconds left, right after Danville takes the lead 36-35, Brebeuf runs a quick out and the receiver steps out of bounds at :36.

The ball is spotter and the white hat winds the clock. Brebeuf then calls a timeout with :29 seconds left, losing 7 seconds in the process. 

 

Can someone explain that to me? 

I can!  The officials had a bad night throughout the game.  I saw the same thing.  I guess the White Hat had no experience in that role.  Seems a tough spot to get that first game experience.  It was a tough game for both teams, imo.

[Boiler Boog]

I’m not a fan of the call on that fourth down play. That being said, you can’t just look at one bad call in a vacuum. Early on in the game the Danville coach got an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty for going out on the field and confronting the refs on an 4th down play. After that, it seems like the refs were trying to regain control. All night Brebeuf was getting calls against them. Brebeuf is a highly disciplined team on offense. All year they probably had less than 10 holding calls during the season. They had several on Friday. That would be a statistical anamoly. They had a long TD run called back in the third quarter, On the same drive they had another penalty that pushed it to 2nd and 30. Meanwhile a power running team like Danville had maybe one holding call. In the fourth quarter Brebeuf had a 43 yd pass play that got called back for a lineman down field….how often does that get called? The lineman downfield had just about as much of an effect on the play as the kids on danvilles sideline who ran out after the 4th down play in OT. If the refs don’t make that call, then Brebeuf has first down around the Danville 20 and can run several plays and run time off the clock for and Danville probably doesn’t have a chance to score with a minute left and overtime isn’t even a thing. All I’m saying is we fixate on one call at the end of the game when there were plenty of other iffy calls throughout the game that went against Brebeuf and effected how they played the game. There was a reason why they were up 35-14 heading into the fourth. They played a good game as well. They made plenty of mistakes but they had a lot of “bad calls” go against them too, they just weren’t the last one.

[Titan32]

33 minutes ago, Boiler Boog said:

I’m not a fan of the call on that fourth down play. That being said, you can’t just look at one bad call in a vacuum. Early on in the game the Danville coach got an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty for going out on the field and confronting the refs on an 4th down play. After that, it seems like the refs were trying to regain control. All night Brebeuf was getting calls against them. Brebeuf is a highly disciplined team on offense. All year they probably had less than 10 holding calls during the season. They had several on Friday. That would be a statistical anamoly. They had a long TD run called back in the third quarter, On the same drive they had another penalty that pushed it to 2nd and 30. Meanwhile a power running team like Danville had maybe one holding call. In the fourth quarter Brebeuf had a 43 yd pass play that got called back for a lineman down field….how often does that get called? The lineman downfield had just about as much of an effect on the play as the kids on danvilles sideline who ran out after the 4th down play in OT. If the refs don’t make that call, then Brebeuf has first down around the Danville 20 and can run several plays and run time off the clock for and Danville probably doesn’t have a chance to score with a minute left and overtime isn’t even a thing. All I’m saying is we fixate on one call at the end of the game when there were plenty of other iffy calls throughout the game that went against Brebeuf and effected how they played the game. There was a reason why they were up 35-14 heading into the fourth. They played a good game as well. They made plenty of mistakes but they had a lot of “bad calls” go against them too, they just weren’t the last one.

We see the lineman downfield call down here in Southwest Indiana ALL THE TIME.

[Boiler Boog]

35 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

We see the lineman downfield call down here in Southwest Indiana ALL THE TIME.

Don’t see it a lot here. What I’m trying to say is it didn’t really effect a 43 yd pass play Brebeuf had but no one talks about that. I’m sure I could rewatch the game and find an instance of a Danville guy being downfield and not being called. There are so many 50/50 calls in any game. Brebeuf had plenty go against them, any single one of those calls not going against them probable leads to Brebeuf being able to run the clock out before Danville has a chance to score with a minute left. Yet all people talk about is the one call at the end of the game but they ignore other calls (or non calls) earlier in the game.

 

Go to 2 hrs 41 minutes and 21 seconds on the broadcast. Here is the link

https://www.ihsaatv.org/?B=1460710

Brebeuf receiver gets called with hold. Where the hold is, I have no clue. Terrible call. Yet no one talks about it. If the don’t call it who knows what effect it has on the game. 
 

All I’m saying is people seem to only fixate on the call at the end of the game and ignore equally bad calls that if not made, probably mean Brebeuf can run out the clock and win the game in regular time without having to deal with overtime.

 

[FastpacedO]

It is a tough loss for Danville to take. Brebeuf Jesuit is officially the winner. Their reward is a rematch with Roncalli whom they lost 37-18 (18 was the lowest amount of points they have scored on the season).

[5GetsYou1]

9 hours ago, Boiler Boog said:

Brebeuf receiver gets called with hold. Where the hold is, I have no clue. Terrible call. Yet no one talks about it. If the don’t call it who knows what effect it has on the game. 

#3 Clearly pulls the defender's jersey. 

[Coach Dowell]

Just took a look at this play this morning.  Not 100% sure but it does appear that the QB knee is down and or the elbow hits the ground as the ball comes out.  Just looking at it looks like he is down prior to any fumble.  another thought can you Franco Harris in HS? (Advance a Fumble by an Offensive player?) If so maybe that rule needs looked at.   I am not a master of mechanics by any means but it does appear that the side judge on Danville's sideline is way ahead of the play.   On the aforementioned concerning using discretion.  Who is watching the sidelines?  All those guys in stripes should be watching the play.  Now this is a learning moment for all the other schools still playing.  Stay off the field until the play is blown dead.  Again tough way to lose a game.  Reminder that officials are not professionals and we currently have no replay system in Indiana..  Most if not all love the game and do their best to get it right.

[miner_35]

11 hours ago, Titan32 said:

We see the lineman downfield call down here in Southwest Indiana ALL THE TIME.

I will die on this hill. The best officiating does not come from I-70 and up. Yet you see a lot more of those crew advancing in the playoffs due to "travel". One of several reasons last year was my last year officiating.

[Bobref]

25 minutes ago, miner_35 said:

I will die on this hill. The best officiating does not come from I-70 and up. Yet you see a lot more of those crew advancing in the playoffs due to "travel". One of several reasons last year was my last year officiating.

I see crews from all over the state. I don’t get whatever point you’re trying to make here. Could you explain your thoughts in a little more detail?

[FastpacedO]

On 10/26/2024 at 7:47 PM, slice60 said:

From an IndyStar article:

“In high school football, it was one of the oddest endings I’ve ever seen. Really disappointing for our kids because the game wasn’t decided on the field unfortunately,” Danville coach Jayme Comer said. “Officials are put in really difficult situations. That crew, their white hat got hurt last week, and they had a new white hat. It was his first game as a white hat all season, and it was definitely a difficult spot for him and for them to be in.

“I don’t know. I wish that we would have won the game, and we all feel we did. They deserve the right to play another week of the season, and unfortunately, that was taken away from them.”

 

I agree with Coach Comer it was one of the oddest endings I've ever seen. I also agree it is disappointing to his kids.

What I will say is that even though there was a bad call in Danville's view and maybe in the officials view. Brebeuf did still have to score and kick a PAT to win the game. Danville still had the opportunity to stop Brebeuf Jesuit again. You will hear coaches tell players all the time "Control what you can control". You can't control an officials call. At that point the only thing Danville could control was the next play. Just food for thought. 

Question for those at the game. Did Danville have any timeouts left? If so might have been a time to call a timeout before that last play and regroup your defense and get them focused back in (of course that is in hindsight).

[1st_and_10]

17 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

I agree with Coach Comer it was one of the oddest endings I've ever seen. I also agree it is disappointing to his kids.

What I will say is that even though there was a bad call in Danville's view and maybe in the officials view. Brebeuf did still have to score and kick a PAT to win the game. Danville still had the opportunity to stop Brebeuf Jesuit again. You will hear coaches tell players all the time "Control what you can control". You can't control an officials call. At that point the only thing Danville could control was the next play. Just food for thought. 

Question for those at the game. Did Danville have any timeouts left? If so might have been a time to call a timeout before that last play and regroup your defense and get them focused back in (of course that is in hindsight).

I wasn't at the game, but watched it online.  Each team gets 1 TO in OT.  Danville used theirs on their offensive series.  Brebeuf used theirs before their "1st" 4th down play.

[FastpacedO]

35 minutes ago, 1st_and_10 said:

I wasn't at the game, but watched it online.  Each team gets 1 TO in OT.  Danville used theirs on their offensive series.  Brebeuf used theirs before their "1st" 4th down play.

Thank you.

[miner_35]

11 minutes ago, Bobref said:

I see crews from all over the state. I don’t get whatever point you’re trying to make here. Could you explain your thoughts in a little more detail?

 

 

I will just put out that I have seen several "state caliber" crews while watching games over the last several years from the Indianapolis area and their mechanics are absolutely terrible. I have also watched/worked "state caliber" white hats that did not know their signals or rules. Mine is not based off much else. Penalties will be missed, but knowing why you call something matters. Relaying the ball to each other without the ball hitting the ground matters. Hustle matters. Location matters. There is one crew in the Terre Haute area, in particular, that has done multiple state finals and they aren't even the best crew in their association. They are 3rd. White hat stood in the wrong location for almost the whole first half of one game I watched. The other crews are just that much better than them. I will say I have only seen crews from Indianapolis and south for the most part. With that being said, almost everyone I have seen from the Indianapolis area, It always seems to be an absolute s*** show. I apologize for saying I-70 &up in my previous post. Mainly just complaining about what I see from a lot of Indianapolis area crews that I hear are great.

As far as the traveling part, I feel like less games are south so less crews move on. It's more sour grapes than anything else.

IT is also a NIGHTMARE to get observed from the south due to the lack of observers in the area. It is not fair to ask you to travel to Tell City or Evansville multiple times a year, but I know you would. We went to Zionsville a few years ago and BAM we got observed. That same year we got observed during Sectional. Both times we had great reviews but still couldn't get past a first round game for the following years. We also had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Faulkens during the season. People give him a hard time, but I really enjoyed all interactions I had with him. 

 

I will say, I left officiating mainly to spend more time with my family. I still watch the game as more of an official than a fan. My wife hates me for it. I miss being on the field. I miss the comradery. I do not miss tourney time due to feeling let down that we didn't advance and seeing crews at later levels in the tourney that I know for a fact other crews I had seen on my off weeks or worked with/saw film of are sitting at home.

[Sledge]

5 hours ago, FastpacedO said:

It is a tough loss for Danville to take. Brebeuf Jesuit is officially the winner. Their reward is a rematch with Roncalli whom they lost 37-18 (18 was the lowest amount of points they have scored on the season).

That game was played in a monsoon, taking all of Brebeuf's strengths away.... I expect a close game and even a Brebeuf win

[bucksfan]

I am a former HS Fb Coach (MS to DIII in my career) a journey man if you will, who turn to the stripes several years ago.  I have officiated both school's JV games over the years and thought why not check out the "Game of the Week".  My observations are purely mine from both an official and coach.

I think most officials would agree, throw the flag early especially in this end of game situation, you can always pick it up.  We officials are always talking about optics, like being in position, being decisive and communicating with each other and the coaches.  I think it is fair to say the long discussion with a very late flag and communication were poor optics for everyone watching the game.  I would have liked to seen a flag then a discussion, and I am sure the crew would agree.   We all make mistakes, but we get it more often than not after a discussion, despite what coaches and fans think because HS, NCAA and NFL rules are not all the same. Illegal participation, I believe was the final call, half the distance to the goal. The call Friday night at the end of OT was the right call, just not timely. 

As I change hats, I wonder about a few things.  Brebeuf has a 14 point, lead momentum seems to be shifting and they throw the ball three times using about 15 secs.   They have a good running back, who is very dangerous in the open field and runs hard between the tackles.  I wonder if running the ball to shorten the game, is a good idea? Even another minute changes everything since there were 2 touchdowns scored in the final minute. 

Danville had self-control issues all night, starting with the HC coach, who was on the field several times to argue calls, which is a big "no no" according to Mr. Faulkins, and this crew night be penalized with just one playoff game for not handling that better.  At the end of regulation Bb was doing laterals to win, an obvious lateral hits the ground, the Danville fans and sideline erupt like the game was over, and it wasn't. Dv kids stopped playing and started celebrating, while a Bb player alertly grabbed the ball and ran to the endzone, leaving just the extra point to send the game to OT. I wonder if being aware of the situation and not listening to the crowd is a good idea?  To be continued...

In OT Dv scored and made the decision to go for 2, gutsy on the road and all. Seems early and extreme, but I was a more conservative as a play caller and game manager. But if going for it, I wonder, why not throw it to #4? He has caught several TD passes already, seems like a sure thing if you are going for the win.

Continued, and on 4th down in OT when Bb gets stopped, and the ball pops out with no whistle to end the play, and it was closer to the Dv sideline than Bb, seems like you would make sure the fumble isn't picked up like at the end of the game.

After the delay and the correct call, Bb still has to score and kick the PAT to tie, oops never mind, and Dv still has a chance to stop them. 

Unlike anything I have ever seen in my 40 + years of football of playing coaching and officiating, from the 2 TDs in under a minute to get to OT, to the end of OT, hats off to both teams for paying their tails off for more than 48 minutes, congratulations to the officials for making the right call, even if it took a minute or more.

Can you imagine if the game ended with 30 Dv players on the field before the fumble was picked up and the Bb player was tackled?.   

That would be CONTROVERSIAL!

[bucksfan]

By rule, if a player goes out of bounds on his accord sideways or backwards, the clock is wound as if he was downed in bounds.  Brebuef did this a couple times to avoid the hit and keep the clock moving.

One would assume the kid was trying to stop the clock, but the covering official clearly saw him go sideways.  That was tough one when I started.

[Bobref]

2 hours ago, miner_35 said:

 

 

I will just put out that I have seen several "state caliber" crews while watching games over the last several years from the Indianapolis area and their mechanics are absolutely terrible. I have also watched/worked "state caliber" white hats that did not know their signals or rules. Mine is not based off much else. Penalties will be missed, but knowing why you call something matters. Relaying the ball to each other without the ball hitting the ground matters. Hustle matters. Location matters. There is one crew in the Terre Haute area, in particular, that has done multiple state finals and they aren't even the best crew in their association. They are 3rd. White hat stood in the wrong location for almost the whole first half of one game I watched. The other crews are just that much better than them. I will say I have only seen crews from Indianapolis and south for the most part. With that being said, almost everyone I have seen from the Indianapolis area, It always seems to be an absolute s*** show. I apologize for saying I-70 &up in my previous post. Mainly just complaining about what I see from a lot of Indianapolis area crews that I hear are great.

As far as the traveling part, I feel like less games are south so less crews move on. It's more sour grapes than anything else.

IT is also a NIGHTMARE to get observed from the south due to the lack of observers in the area. It is not fair to ask you to travel to Tell City or Evansville multiple times a year, but I know you would. We went to Zionsville a few years ago and BAM we got observed. That same year we got observed during Sectional. Both times we had great reviews but still couldn't get past a first round game for the following years. We also had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Faulkens during the season. People give him a hard time, but I really enjoyed all interactions I had with him. 

 

I will say, I left officiating mainly to spend more time with my family. I still watch the game as more of an official than a fan. My wife hates me for it. I miss being on the field. I miss the comradery. I do not miss tourney time due to feeling let down that we didn't advance and seeing crews at later levels in the tourney that I know for a fact other crews I had seen on my off weeks or worked with/saw film of are sitting at home.

Thank you for your very thoughtful explanation. There are a number of significant points you make, but I’ll only address one, or we’ll be here all day. Just my opinion:

Except for a handful of really elite crews, the ratings calculated to determine playoff advancement have only a very loose correlation with officiating proficiency.

Go ahead, change my mind.

[Bobref]

1 hour ago, bucksfan said:

By rule, if a player goes out of bounds on his accord sideways or backwards, the clock is wound as if he was downed in bounds.

That is not accurate. If a player runs backwards or sideways out of bounds, without contact by an opponent, the game clock stops and doesn’t start again until the snap. It’s only when forward progress is stopped inbounds by contact, and the runner then goes backwards or sideways out of bounds, that the clock continues to run.

[oldtimeqb]

2 hours ago, bucksfan said:

By rule, if a player goes out of bounds on his accord sideways or backwards, the clock is wound as if he was downed in bounds.  Brebuef did this a couple times to avoid the hit and keep the clock moving.

One would assume the kid was trying to stop the clock, but the covering official clearly saw him go sideways.  That was tough one when I started.

I think you were referencing my comment. I just went back and re-watched it. So forgive me for my use of amateur descriptions and not official terms.
 

1st and 10 40 seconds left 

pass complete to the right flat Brebeuf player steps out of bounds. Official does not give a windmill motion or stop the clock motion. Only raises a single hand. Clock stops. 

2nd and 4. 36 seconds 

Ball is spotted on the right hash and the white hat gives the wind the clock motion. Clock begins ticking again.

Should the clock have continued to run the entire time since forward progress was in the field of play? Or is the momentarily paused and restart the appropriate mechanic?

Edited October 28, 2024 by oldtimeqb

[Yuccaguy]

6 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

I think you were referencing my comment. I just went back and re-watched it. So forgive me for my use of amateur descriptions and not official terms.
 

1st and 10 40 seconds left 

pass complete to the right flat Brebeuf player steps out of bounds. Official does not give a windmill motion or stop the clock motion. Only raises a single hand. Clock stops. 

2nd and 4. 36 seconds 

Ball is spotted on the right hash and the white hat gives the wind the clock motion. Clock begins ticking again.

Should the clock have continued to run the entire time since forward progress was in the field of play? Or is the momentarily paused and restart the appropriate mechanic?

1. NO,  it should have started on the ensuing snap of the ball.  

2. This has been lobbied for in the ensuing years, so a change may be coming at some point.....

The R, was incorrect in starting the clock in this situation.

 

[WestfieldRocks]

20 hours ago, PHJIrish said:

I can!  The officials had a bad night throughout the game.  I saw the same thing.  I guess the White Hat had no experience in that role.  Seems a tough spot to get that first game experience.  It was a tough game for both teams, imo.

There were a lot of bad times for these officials. The game almost lasted 3 1/2 hours! Lots of them going off and discussing plays. It's too bad that the white hat that was supposed to do the game was injured and they put in what looks to be a last minute replacement that had never been in that role in the past.

[Yuccaguy]

7 minutes ago, WestfieldRocks said:

There were a lot of bad times for these officials. The game almost lasted 3 1/2 hours! Lots of them going off and discussing plays. It's too bad that the white hat that was supposed to do the game was injured and they put in what looks to be a last minute replacement that had never been in that role in the past.

To be up front and honest with you....  Don't show up to a lower level game and expect an "NFL/Collegiate game".  

(we are) Trying to keep the game going, the clock running, and players 'playing'.  Friday nights are...(a)TOTALLY different thang!  More about teaching and telling them what they can/can't do and should/shouldn't do to have them ready for the bright lights to come when its Monday/Thursday and Saturday.  

Edited October 28, 2024 by Yuccaguy

[WestfieldRocks]

On 10/26/2024 at 2:02 PM, Boiler Boog said:

They didn’t announce anything but what appeared to happen was Danville was sacking our QB on the last play. He fumbled (although he was pretty close to being down). Refs didn’t blow the whistle and our lineman picked it up and started to get tackled pretty much right away but during that time a handful of Danville players had run out onto the field. They were probably a good 30 yards from the action but probably 10 yds onto the field. Refs had like a 5 minute conference and threw a flag. I was sitting right by the entrance to the press box and the 3-4 Danville coaches in the box had already left to go down on the field while that was all happening.Gave Brebeuf another shot at 4th down and they punched it in. Right before the second fourth down they made Brebeufa qb come off, I have no idea why but they seemed to say it was something with his equipment, so the last play was with the backup qb. All kinds of weird stuff happened on that last sequence. 

The reason why the QB had to come out for one play was his helmet also came off as a result of the sack. For me, that's another reason why the refs call on this play was incorrect. Helmet off means that the play is automatically dead, fumble or no fumble, correct?  Play dead means game over, Danville wins. 

[Yuccaguy]

5 minutes ago, WestfieldRocks said:

The reason why the QB had to come out for one play was his helmet also came off as a result of the sack. For me, that's another reason why the refs call on this play was incorrect. Helmet off means that the play is automatically dead, fumble or no fumble, correct?  Play dead means game over, Danville wins. 

No the play is not "dead".  But I'd have to see the play again to give a better assessment of THAT (my) answer.  Honestly, that has nothing to do with the eventual call by the officials.  

Again, play is NOT dead.

In every sense, we (officials who have weighed in) all agree that the penalty assessed against Danville was incorrect.  I really don't know what more is being accomplished by continuing this beratement of the crew.  They missed the call in the heat of the moment, these things happen.  

Any player has to leave the field if their helmet comes off during play for one play... So long as it is NOT the result of a penalty committed against them.  It also is not a penalty in HS football to remove your helmet prior to play (or arriving at the sideline)....  It's a rather dumb thing to do though! 

 

[Yuccaguy]

@WestfieldRocks 

Go back to the 2021 State Final vs. Center Grove.  #35 a Defensive player (for Westfield) in the 4th quarter loses his helmet.  Not as the result of a penalty.

He continues to participate in the play.  He is then is assessed a 15 penalty for illegal participation BECAUSE he continued to participate with improper equipment, and participated in the tackle.

Why would the play be whistled "dead"?

Edited October 28, 2024 by Yuccaguy
clarity