Guest DT Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 Elkhart Memorial, Hammond Clark and Hammond Gavit are soon to join the contraction scrap heap The march to 280 football schools continues What other schools are sitting on the contraction bubble? Any programs being dropped due to poor numbers, poor results or general lack of interest? Any other school closings or consolidations? Appreciate any updates you can provide Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTF Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 I'd like to see Northrop's football program fold. Let those kids join forces with Snider (they share Spuller stadium anyway) to create a mega-school out of The Fort. Just wishful thinking.........won't ever happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimsonace1 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 12 hours ago, DT said: Elkhart Memorial, Hammond Clark and Hammond Gavit are soon to join the contraction scrap heap The march to 280 football schools continues Ah, DT again mixing up "contraction" (schools dropping programs) and "consolidation" (schools merging). I'm not sure why 280 is your magic number. I know you're often confused about the difference between high school and college football, but fewer schools does not mean more quality, because - outside of the largest communities, students aren't likely to jump schools. It just means fewer opportunities. If an isolated rural school drops football, that's 30 or 40 kids who simply won't get the opportunity to play football, not 10 talented kids that will go somewhere else. High school sports are about opportunities, and the fact that someone actually celebrates and gloats about reducing opportunities for participation in this great game on a high school website is absurd, but par for the course for certain people around here who traffic in absurd, off-base and usually uninformed hot takes. Those schools are consolidating due to finances and population changes in their communities. As Indiana suburbanizes, consolidation is a reality. But we may also see addition - like Fishers being carved out of HSE. Programs do not close for "poor results." They may close due to smaller numbers (and those are generally programs at tiny schools), but there are a lot of programs who went through 20+ game losing streaks that continue to run - and some are thriving. 13 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gipper Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 37 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said: Ah, DT again mixing up "contraction" (schools dropping programs) and "consolidation" (schools merging). I'm not sure why 280 is your magic number. I know you're often confused about the difference between high school and college football, but fewer schools does not mean more quality, because - outside of the largest communities, students aren't likely to jump schools. It just means fewer opportunities. If an isolated rural school drops football, that's 30 or 40 kids who simply won't get the opportunity to play football, not 10 talented kids that will go somewhere else. High school sports are about opportunities, and the fact that someone actually celebrates and gloats about reducing opportunities for participation in this great game on a high school website is absurd, but par for the course for certain people around here who traffic in absurd, off-base and usually uninformed hot takes. Those schools are consolidating due to finances and population changes in their communities. As Indiana suburbanizes, consolidation is a reality. But we may also see addition - like Fishers being carved out of HSE. Programs do not close for "poor results." They may close due to smaller numbers (and those are generally programs at tiny schools), but there are a lot of programs who went through 20+ game losing streaks that continue to run - and some are thriving. Your last statement couldn't be any more correct. Athletics are circular at many schools, especially the smaller ones. In certain years, there could be a bunch of great players (along with a well-seasoned {hi, Lysander} coach), whereas the pickings could be quite slim in other years, but things always do work out. Sure, I'm not about to book a room at the JW Marriott for when SN makes it to the Luke, but there will always be football in the cornfields on Friday nights... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DT Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 1 hour ago, crimsonace1 said: Ah, DT again mixing up "contraction" (schools dropping programs) and "consolidation" (schools merging). I'm not sure why 280 is your magic number. I know you're often confused about the difference between high school and college football, but fewer schools does not mean more quality, because - outside of the largest communities, students aren't likely to jump schools. It just means fewer opportunities. If an isolated rural school drops football, that's 30 or 40 kids who simply won't get the opportunity to play football, not 10 talented kids that will go somewhere else. High school sports are about opportunities, and the fact that someone actually celebrates and gloats about reducing opportunities for participation in this great game on a high school website is absurd, but par for the course for certain people around here who traffic in absurd, off-base and usually uninformed hot takes. Those schools are consolidating due to finances and population changes in their communities. As Indiana suburbanizes, consolidation is a reality. But we may also see addition - like Fishers being carved out of HSE. Programs do not close for "poor results." They may close due to smaller numbers (and those are generally programs at tiny schools), but there are a lot of programs who went through 20+ game losing streaks that continue to run - and some are thriving. Contraction is Contraction It comes in various forms Shelbyville and Noll both contracted due to poor results. many factors contributed to the contyraction, but the end result on the field is what drove both schools to suspend their programs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jets Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 Um...Roncalli ?? Not trying to get thread shut down, but any news on how they're going to handle that situation?? In our neck of the woods, Crawford might have trouble keeping its program afloat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimsonace1 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, jets said: Um...Roncalli ?? Not trying to get thread shut down, but any news on how they're going to handle that situation?? In our neck of the woods, Crawford might have trouble keeping its program afloat. And, just to follow, how would Crawford losing football "make Indiana football better?" It would eliminate opportunities for about 25-30 kids, and Crawford is isolated enough that those players are likely not going anywhere else to "make a program better," and it's simply going to make a bunch of teams rearrange their schedules. This isn't college, where players live on campus, usually away from home, and can simply transfer to another school. For the vast majority of players outside of the largest metros (where football is pretty strong), transferring is not an option. It's eliminating and losing opportunities. The fact that Boone Grove, Forest Park, Hanover Central, Scottsburg, Oldenburg, Heritage Christian, Indy Lutheran, Attucks, Shortridge, et al, have added football in the last 20+ years (as well as a number of newer schools like Anderson Prep, Covenant Christian, Traders Point, Tindley) as well as Fishers splitting from HSE makes our game BETTER, not worse. Not all of those have been state-level programs - Lutheran and Heritage have played for state titles - but it creates new opportunities for people to play football. I was fortunate to watch a Forest Park QB run the show for Franklin and carry them into the D3 playoffs a few years back. The game grew to the point where it had to have six classes to accommodate the fact that 320+ schools were playing football. That's a *great* thing, and Indiana high school football has never been better. Eliminating opportunities in 40 programs like one poster here is openly advocating for would eliminate chances to play football for more than 1,000 players in our state (and that's not consolidation, as there would still be opportunities to play football at a consolidated school, but eliminating programs entirely). 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierFB_JG Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 49 minutes ago, DT said: Contraction is Contraction It comes in various forms Shelbyville and Noll both contracted due to poor results. many factors contributed to the contyraction, but the end result on the field is what drove both schools to suspend their programs. Shelbyville did not contract. I agree. Football is extremely important to many communities whether they’re struggling or not. More ridiculous posts. Extremely hard to want to post on this forum any longer when two people who always feel they’re right are on here. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Payne Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 51 minutes ago, DT said: Contraction is Contraction It comes in various forms Shelbyville and Noll both contracted due to poor results. many factors contributed to the contyraction, but the end result on the field is what drove both schools to suspend their programs. Shelbyville? Are you sure you don't mean Shortridge? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DT Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 39 minutes ago, Payne said: Shelbyville? Are you sure you don't mean Shortridge? Did Shortridge contract? Shelbyville has shut down indefinitely due to lack of competitiveness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimsonace1 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 6 minutes ago, DT said: Did Shortridge contract? Shelbyville has shut down indefinitely due to lack of competitiveness Shelbyville will field a program next year, and for many, many, many years thereafter. In our area, Connersville, Greenfield-Central and New Castle have had years where they struggled, and have not only soldiered on, but have had some pretty good seasons mixed in. Shelby is three years removed from having consistent winning records. These things run in cycles. Programs DO NOT shut down due to results. They MIGHT shut down due to low numbers. No AD or school board member in his right mind goes "hey, we went 0-10 last year, might as well pack it up. Let 'em play soccer." An AD will say "look, we only have 15 players out for football, and that's not good for the health of our kids," but even then, they might suspend the program for a year or two and try to rebuild it by playing a JV schedule and investing in lower grades. 320 should be the magic number, not 280. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastpacedO Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 13 minutes ago, DT said: Did Shortridge contract? Shelbyville has shut down indefinitely due to lack of competitiveness Um...Shelbyville completed their entire season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DT Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said: Shelbyville will field a program next year, and for many, many, many years thereafter. In our area, Connersville, Greenfield-Central and New Castle have had years where they struggled, and have not only soldiered on, but have had some pretty good seasons mixed in. Shelby is three years removed from having consistent winning records. These things run in cycles. Programs DO NOT shut down due to results. They MIGHT shut down due to low numbers. No AD or school board member in his right mind goes "hey, we went 0-10 last year, might as well pack it up. Let 'em play soccer." An AD will say "look, we only have 15 players out for football, and that's not good for the health of our kids," but even then, they might suspend the program for a year or two and try to rebuild it by playing a JV schedule and investing in lower grades. 320 should be the magic number, not 280. Shelby may be beyond the point of no return. Im sure they are talking about a comeback, but this is 2020, not 1995. Kids passion for football is on the downturn. I know all about NP, but that is THE exception to the rule. There is a new group of admins running the show now. They dont have the passion for football that their predecessors did. The Shelby braintrust hopefully will take a deep dive into this issue and determine if its really worth it. Is it worth it just to show up and throw 11 live bodies on the field every Friday night? Could those funds be better utilized elsewhere in the school? Do the kids want an support a football program? Is there a realistic chance of rebuilding the feeder system? What kind of coaching can you possibly attract to this job? Hopefully they will do their due diligence and come to a conclusion that is suitable for the entire student body, not just the 3% of students who want to keep playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanka Jahari Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 13 minutes ago, FastpacedO said: Um...Shelbyville completed their entire season. What weakness in Pendleton Heights' defense did Shelbyville discover and exploit to score in the last two games of their season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastpacedO Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 4 minutes ago, Tanka Jahari said: What weakness in Pendleton Heights' defense did Shelbyville discover and exploit to score in the last two games of their season? They ran the same play they ran in week 1 and found it still worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muda69 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 1 hour ago, crimsonace1 said: The fact that Boone Grove, Forest Park, Hanover Central, Scottsburg, Oldenburg, Heritage Christian, Indy Lutheran, Attucks, Shortridge, et al, have added football in the last 20+ years (as well as a number of newer schools like Anderson Prep, Covenant Christian, Traders Point, Tindley) as well as Fishers splitting from HSE makes our game BETTER, not worse. Where is the objective data to back up this assertion, or is it just a "feeling"? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DT Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Tanka Jahari said: What weakness in Pendleton Heights' defense did Shelbyville discover and exploit to score in the last two games of their season? They installed end zone cameras, which gave their advance scouting team some new angles to analyze, evaluate and exploit the PH defense, resulting in the points windfall you see in weeks 9 and 10. Edited December 4, 2019 by DT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxbat Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 6 minutes ago, FastpacedO said: They ran the same play they ran in week 1 and found it still worked. Ran it to the left on 10/18 and ran it to the right on 10/25? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muda69 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 A candidate for contraction?: http://pastfb.homestead.com/logs/Frankfort.htm#loaded 3-37 over the last four seasons, and 2 of those wins came over a similar moribund program. And the score differential shows the vast majority of those 37 losses were not even competitive games. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DT Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 Just now, foxbat said: Ran it to the left on 10/18 and ran it to the right on 10/25? You guys are mean Just now, Muda69 said: A candidate for contraction?: http://pastfb.homestead.com/logs/Frankfort.htm#loaded 3-37 over the last four seasons, and 2 of those wins came over a similar moribund program. And the score differential shows the vast majority of those 37 losses were not even competitive games. What do the students want? Shouldn't they have a voice in this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxbat Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 Just now, DT said: You guys are mean "points windfall?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustRules Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 7 minutes ago, Muda69 said: A candidate for contraction?: http://pastfb.homestead.com/logs/Frankfort.htm#loaded 3-37 over the last four seasons, and 2 of those wins came over a similar moribund program. And the score differential shows the vast majority of those 37 losses were not even competitive games. I believe Frankfort had 60 players on their roster this year. They weren't great, but that's 60 kids who want to play football. High school sports aren't only about winning. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DT Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 Am i being obtuse? Just now, JustRules said: I believe Frankfort had 60 players on their roster this year. They weren't great, but that's 60 kids who want to play football. High school sports aren't only about winning. Oh yeah. They are about teaching life lessons. So are we teaching the Frankfort youth how to lose with grace and dignity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JQWL Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 1 hour ago, crimsonace1 said: And, just to follow, how would Crawford losing football "make Indiana football better?" It would eliminate opportunities for about 25-30 kids, and Crawford is isolated enough that those players are likely not going anywhere else to "make a program better," and it's simply going to make a bunch of teams rearrange their schedules. This isn't college, where players live on campus, usually away from home, and can simply transfer to another school. For the vast majority of players outside of the largest metros (where football is pretty strong), transferring is not an option. It's eliminating and losing opportunities. The fact that Boone Grove, Forest Park, Hanover Central, Scottsburg, Oldenburg, Heritage Christian, Indy Lutheran, Attucks, Shortridge, et al, have added football in the last 20+ years (as well as a number of newer schools like Anderson Prep, Covenant Christian, Traders Point, Tindley) as well as Fishers splitting from HSE makes our game BETTER, not worse. Not all of those have been state-level programs - Lutheran and Heritage have played for state titles - but it creates new opportunities for people to play football. I was fortunate to watch a Forest Park QB run the show for Franklin and carry them into the D3 playoffs a few years back. The game grew to the point where it had to have six classes to accommodate the fact that 320+ schools were playing football. That's a *great* thing, and Indiana high school football has never been better. Eliminating opportunities in 40 programs like one poster here is openly advocating for would eliminate chances to play football for more than 1,000 players in our state (and that's not consolidation, as there would still be opportunities to play football at a consolidated school, but eliminating programs entirely). 25 to 30 kids! That would be great! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustRules Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, DT said: Am i being obtuse? Oh yeah. They are about teaching life lessons. So are we teaching the Frankfort youth how to lose with grace and dignity? You get to learn what it's like to be part of a team and play a role (leader and follower), learn an offense and/or defense, set goals as a team, have a reason to keep your grades up, be involved and make friends, an activity for the community to rally around and connect, handle adversity, push yourself to get better at something. I'm sure the list is much longer. Yes it's awesome if you can be part of a program that competes every week. Or a program that has a chance to win a sectional final. Or at least upset the huge favorite in the sectional. Or maybe even compete for a state championship. But not everyone can reasonably achieve that and that's OK. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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