This Could Be Worse Than The P/P Argument

[LaSalle Lions 1976]

While looking at the past Indiana High School Football Champions since 1973, I notice a huge lack of schools from multi-high school districts.

Based on my math (using and old calculator)  out of 220 possible state champions, multi-high school districts won a total of 10 times (5%).

They were runner up 12 times of 220 (5.5%).

There are many factors that contribute to this, but I am curious to understand why some of the 6A schools don't split into smaller high schools.  I would think it wouldn't be for athletic reasons.

Discuss

 

[scarab527]

Well, first I doubt if a school wasn’t competing in a higher class in sports that just by breaking into smaller schools they’d be competitive. Second, we’ve seen Elkhart and soon Hammond consolidate, and I’d expect we’ll continue to see consolidations in the next few years. The larger the tax base the better the school so there’s no reason for these schools to break up just for an attempt at better athletic success. 

Edited October 26, 2020 by scarab527

[fenderbender]

Are you sure these numbers are right?  I came up with 4 in about 30 seconds just from the Evansville area (Castle - Warrick County Schools, Reitz - EVSC)

 

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by fenderbender

[fenderbender]

10 minutes ago, fenderbender said:

Are you sure these numbers are right?  I came up with 4 in about 30 seconds just from the Evansville area (Castle - Warrick County Schools, Reitz - EVSC)

 

 

2 HSE Fishers

3 Columbus East

4 FW Snider (3) and Wayne

1 Lawrence Central

[Muda69]

37 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

Well, first I doubt if a school wasn’t competing in a higher class in sports that just by breaking into smaller schools they’d be competitive. Second, we’ve seen Elkhart and soon Hammond consolidate, and I’d expect we’ll continue to see consolidations in the next few years. The larger the tax base the better the school so there’s no reason for these schools to break up just for an attempt at better athletic success. 

But wouldn't more high schools provide more athletic opportunities for children?  Or should the mega schools like Carmel,  Ben Davis, etc.  somehow field two varsity-level football squads?  Surely they have the enrollment and talent depth to support such a venture.

 

[Mebuck]

Could it be that large school districts also eliminate each other? Like in the SAC (Fort Wayne) 3 6A schools, 3 5A school, 2 4A, 1 3A and 1 2A.

All are in same sectional. 

Just a thought

[LaSalle Lions 1976]

21 minutes ago, fenderbender said:

Are you sure these numbers are right?  I came up with 4 in about 30 seconds just from the Evansville area (Castle - Warrick County Schools, Reitz - EVSC)

 

 

I looked at the school districts...not the schools.  There are 5 schools in Evansville and Fort Wayne, 4 in Indianapolis and South Bend, and 2 in Bloomington, Terre Haute, Columbus, and Hammond

[scarab527]

12 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

But wouldn't more high schools provide more athletic opportunities for children?  Or should the mega schools like Carmel,  Ben Davis, etc.  somehow field two varsity-level football squads?  Surely they have the enrollment and talent depth to support such a venture.

 

Perhaps, you might get some kids to come out for sports they otherwise wouldn’t have, but I doubt it’d be a drastic increase, some kids just don’t have interest in sports. I would also counter that by breaking up a large school, you could just as easily be taking away athletic opportunities (in terms of being competitive, etc) from kids, as well as other opportunities outside of sports for kids who don’t even play. And trying to nerf the MIC teams by splitting their teams in half is a pretty ridiculous suggestion if you ask me. 

[fenderbender]

Just saying I came up with 14 titles in multiple school school districts.  

[LaSalle Lions 1976]

5 minutes ago, fenderbender said:

Just saying I came up with 14 titles in multiple school school districts.  

14 titles out of a possible 220 is still very small...a little more that 6%

[LaSalle Lions 1976]

Like I said...this was based on districts I knew had multiple high schools.  I may have missed a couple.

Still the numbers are very small.

[Muda69]

Two other government school districts with multiple high schools that I know of:

Tippecanoe School Corporation:  Harrison and McCutcheon

MSD of Wabash County:  Northfield, Southwood, White's

 

 

[HHPatriots]

Smaller school gives more opportunity for kids that wouldn't play otherwise.  Heritage Hills has around 600 students.  You will have a dozen or so on a basketball team.  Carmel has almost 5000 students.  You still have a dozen or so on the team (I would assume).   There are surely kids that would be excellent ball players that would be playing if they weren't at the mega school.

I live in the country, but if I moved to a city, say Indy for example, I would be far more inclined to Westfield or Danville than Carmel or Fishers.  Gives your "normal" kid the opportunity to play.  I'm a small town guy, that is my bias....I dunno.

[DanteEstonia]

6 hours ago, LaSalle Lions 1976 said:

While looking at the past Indiana High School Football Champions since 1973, I notice a huge lack of schools from multi-high school districts.

Try breaking your dataset into two- pre '85 and post '85. There might be a difference. 

[US31]

12 hours ago, HHPatriots said:

Smaller school gives more opportunity for kids that wouldn't play otherwise.  Heritage Hills has around 600 students.  You will have a dozen or so on a basketball team.  Carmel has almost 5000 students.  You still have a dozen or so on the team (I would assume).   There are surely kids that would be excellent ball players that would be playing if they weren't at the mega school.

I live in the country, but if I moved to a city, say Indy for example, I would be far more inclined to Westfield or Danville than Carmel or Fishers.  Gives your "normal" kid the opportunity to play.  I'm a small town guy, that is my bias....I dunno.

I'm fairly biased towards Westfield.....but to be fair, Westfield is a lot more like Fishers than it is Danville.  Hamilton Heights would be a better comparison to Danville.  Westfield enrollment is about 2,500 and will be getting closer to 3,000 in next five to ten.

[HHPatriots]

1 hour ago, US31 said:

I'm fairly biased towards Westfield.....but to be fair, Westfield is a lot more like Fishers than it is Danville.  Hamilton Heights would be a better comparison to Danville.  Westfield enrollment is about 2,500 and will be getting closer to 3,000 in next five to ten.

Oh, for some reason I thought Westfield was a 3A school.  My bad.  I will revise to Tri-West then.

[oldtimeqb]

Intriguing premise, although I don't think there would be much there if you looked at all the teams/data.  

One question. Why is state champions and runners-up your barometer of success?  By that measure, only 12 teams each year have success, while some 300+ are unsuccessful.  Our own flawed success factor currently lists winning a sectional in consecutive years as "successful enough" to keep a team at a higher class.  For example, an EVSC (Evansville) school has 12 Sectional 24 championships since 2007 (all but 2).   

[Muda69]

34 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

One question. Why is state champions and runners-up your barometer of success?  

 

 

 

[Staxawax]

3 hours ago, US31 said:

I'm fairly biased towards Westfield.....but to be fair, Westfield is a lot more like Fishers than it is Danville.  Hamilton Heights would be a better comparison to Danville.  Westfield enrollment is about 2,500 and will be getting closer to 3,000 in next five to ten.

Westfield has also led the metro area in housing starts for 2020. Danville/Tri West (Pittsboro) is a good call.  Sheridan may be a better call that Hamilton Heights.

[Muda69]

2 minutes ago, Staxawax said:

Westfield has also led the metro area in housing starts for 2020. Danville/Tri West (Pittsboro) is a good call.  Sheridan may be a better call that Hamilton Heights.

Dunno, depends on if you want an area with real population growth.  Some people don't.  How long can Adams township hold back the urban sprawl?

 

[Staxawax]

Just now, Muda69 said:

Dunno, depends on if you want an area with real population growth.  Some people don't.  How long can Adams township hold back the urban sprawl?

 

They are still solidly in the 1A classification. If not Sheridan then don't pick a town anywhere in the metro area.

[psaboy]

On 10/26/2020 at 2:40 PM, fenderbender said:

2 HSE Fishers

3 Columbus East

4 FW Snider (3) and Wayne

1 Lawrence Central

Snider has only won 2. 

[DanteEstonia]

On 10/26/2020 at 11:40 AM, fenderbender said:

2 HSE Fishers

3 Columbus East

43 FW Snider (32) and Wayne

1 Lawrence Central

2-Bloomington South

1-SB Washington

Maybe, just maybe, Ben Davis and WC had an easier path to the title most of their history, courtesy of IPS? Just saying.

Edited October 28, 2020 by DanteEstonia
added sbw

[fenderbender]

2 hours ago, DanteEstonia said:

2-Bloomington South

1-SB Washington

Maybe, just maybe, Ben Davis and WC had an easier path to the title most of their history, courtesy of IPS? Just saying.

Most of the time WC adn BD maybe had one IPS school in 5A/6A (Tech) in their path.  Most of the schools were in the smaller divisions.

Part of the point is that they are the only HS in their township (school system) and have enormous enrollments.

I hear comments about Perry schools being split into Perry Meridian and Southport.  They would be BD/WC/Carmel size if a single HS.

 

 

[DanteEstonia]

4 hours ago, fenderbender said:

Most of the time WC adn BD maybe had one IPS school in 5A/6A (Tech) in their path.

And Arlington, and Manual, and Northwest.