Carmel Job open

[crimsonace1]

15 hours ago, Bobref said:

So, given their independent status, how desirable a job is this?

Probably one of the most desirable jobs in the state. No program has the resources Carmel has. They have the largest student body in Indiana, a commitment to athletics (the main reason why Carmel hasn't split is because they don't want to weaken their athletic programs), Taj Mahal facilities, the wealthiest public school community in the state, kids who come from stable homes with parents who are motivated and expect success (and are willing to pay for extra training, et al). 

But with that comes high expectations. If you're not playing on Thanksgiving weekend on a regular basis, you're not going to last long there. Also, you have a community full of business leaders and Type A-type parents who are used to getting their way (and more than a few who will attempt to micromanage every aspect of their kids's life) and neither they nor their kids are used to being told "no." You're going to have them in your program. Not in football, but I have some connections to Carmel in other sports, and there's lots of "daddy ball" issues there at the lower levels.

[1st_and_10]

8 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said:

Probably one of the most desirable jobs in the state. No program has the resources Carmel has. They have the largest student body in Indiana, a commitment to athletics (the main reason why Carmel hasn't split is because they don't want to weaken their athletic programs), Taj Mahal facilities, the wealthiest public school community in the state, kids who come from stable homes with parents who are motivated and expect success (and are willing to pay for extra training, et al). 

But with that comes high expectations. If you're not playing on Thanksgiving weekend on a regular basis, you're not going to last long there. Also, you have a community full of business leaders and Type A-type parents who are used to getting their way (and more than a few who will attempt to micromanage every aspect of their kids's life) and neither they nor their kids are used to being told "no." You're going to have them in your program. Not in football, but I have some connections to Carmel in other sports, and there's lots of "daddy ball" issues there at the lower levels.

There was a plane flying around a Carmel last spring... These are the people you would have to deal with... 

An Angry Parent Paid For An Airplane To Fly A "Carmel Baseball Is Daddy Ball" Over Their High School (JV!!!) Baseball Game | Barstool Sports

[BDGiant93]

5 minutes ago, 1st_and_10 said:

There was a plane flying around a Carmel last spring... These are the people you would have to deal with... 

An Angry Parent Paid For An Airplane To Fly A "Carmel Baseball Is Daddy Ball" Over Their High School (JV!!!) Baseball Game | Barstool Sports

Those parents are everywhere. They just don't have the resources to hire a fricken airplane.

[US31]

2 hours ago, adambetz said:

If you're Carmel and CG wouldn't you rather just pick from this list of schools every year?

HCC and MIC schools ....

From a school wide/all sports perspective they both benefit from being in a conference.  Football is easier to be independent for a number of reasons...it makes it more difficult in almost every other sport.

[Footballking16]

I believe Carmel needs a complete reset. Have heard horror stories of total dysfunction in the youth leagues and feeder programs with retention being the worst its ever been. Carmel needs a grinder. The enrollment gap between Carmel and the rest of 6A has closed, no longer can they just lineup on Friday and expect to win as evident to these last few seasons. Carmel is very good job and a very high rewarding one at that, but it's much bigger than simply X's and O's. 

Edited November 14, 2024 by Footballking16

[Bash Riprock]

35 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said:

Probably one of the most desirable jobs in the state. No program has the resources Carmel has. They have the largest student body in Indiana, a commitment to athletics (the main reason why Carmel hasn't split is because they don't want to weaken their athletic programs), Taj Mahal facilities, the wealthiest public school community in the state, kids who come from stable homes with parents who are motivated and expect success (and are willing to pay for extra training, et al). 

But with that comes high expectations. If you're not playing on Thanksgiving weekend on a regular basis, you're not going to last long there. Also, you have a community full of business leaders and Type A-type parents who are used to getting their way (and more than a few who will attempt to micromanage every aspect of their kids's life) and neither they nor their kids are used to being told "no." You're going to have them in your program. Not in football, but I have some connections to Carmel in other sports, and there's lots of "daddy ball" issues there at the lower levels.

Any prospective coach may want to dive into their youth feeder system....doesn't seem to be as strong as it used to be for youth football.  Not saying it can't change, but I would sure evaluate.....

[US31]

3 hours ago, Boilernation said:

You think that happens in a new look HCC that is missing some of the current members? That's the only way I could see it happening. I can't see them teaming up with the Marion County Township schools again unless it was only for Football and Basketball. 

Some where in the GID basement is a thread on conference realignment...I believe I have a post in there where I predicted a 6A Indy Metro conference realignment on the horizon...how far I don't know.  My prediction was that there ends up being some type of HCC "North" and an HCC "South"/Realigned MIC.  I still feel like that happens in the foreseable future.  Some of the HCC "schools" were interested in adding Carmel.  Several HCC "coaches" (not football) pushed back hard.   I think the money Carmel brings to the gate revenue in a variety of sports may eventually win out...

Short version of my old post is that I can forsee and HCCish conference on the south side forming and peeling some MIC/HCC schools off.  I could then see the original HCC "north" schools adding some old MIC members.  As has been mentioned, there is always a chance the HCC grows so much they split into a "North/South" division (I personally don't find that as likely).

Understand, I have not vote on this and its only my vibe based on conversations with a lot of HCC/Indy area coaches in multiple sports.  My 2 cents, maybe worth less than that👍

[crimsonace1]

8 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

Any prospective coach may want to dive into their youth feeder system....doesn't seem to be as strong as it used to be for youth football.  Not saying it can't change, but I would sure evaluate.....

The issues I was referencing earlier - at least in other sports - tends to involve parents getting involved in the youth feeder system not to help the community's kids, but to elevate their own kids over others. Because Carmel is so large and varsity spots are so scarce, it's extremely competitive, and you'll have a few who will try to work the system to their advantage (and then cry foul when it doesn't happen). 

Those people are in *every* community, but it can be a bit more prevalent in a community where there's enough talent to field 3-4 quality varsity teams and only 1 team's worth of spots. 

[crimsonace1]

5 minutes ago, US31 said:

Some where in the GID basement is a thread on conference realignment...I believe I have a post in there where I predicted a 6A Indy Metro conference realignment on the horizon...how far I don't know.  My prediction was that there ends up being some type of HCC "North" and an HCC "South"/Realigned MIC.  I still feel like that happens in the foreseable future.  Some of the HCC "schools" were interested in adding Carmel.  Several HCC "coaches" (not football) pushed back hard.   I think the money Carmel brings to the gate revenue in a variety of sports may eventually win out...

Short version of my old post is that I can forsee and HCCish conference on the south side forming and peeling some MIC/HCC schools off.  I could then see the original HCC "north" schools adding some old MIC members.  As has been mentioned, there is always a chance the HCC grows so much they split into a "North/South" division (I personally don't find that as likely).

Understand, I have not vote on this and its only my vibe based on conversations with a lot of HCC/Indy area coaches in multiple sports.  My 2 cents, maybe worth less than that👍

Possible, from a competitive and travel standpoint (heck, it's a lot easier for Avon to travel to Ben Davis than to Noblesville), but the other issue is this. The HCC schools are *very* good in non-football/basketball sports. It's the best baseball conference in the state, and one could argue, also the best in soccer, softball and one of the best in volleyball. It's probably a slight cut above the MIC in girls hoops, and even/slightly behind the MIC in football and boys hoops. However, in the other sports - baseball, softball, volleyball, tennis, soccer, individual sports except track & field and wrestling - the MIC schools would struggle to be competitive with the HCC ones. 

You also have an issue where the MIC schools are somewhat notorious for not bringing much of a road crowd, whereas the HCC schools typically have decent support. I've heard that stated by ADs as a reason to *not* invite a team into a conference that would otherwise be a good geographical and competitive fit. If you have to have 3/4 home games in multiple sports against teams that aren't going to bring a crowd, that can cost you a *lot* of money. That's another reason why you might not see such a merger. 

[US31]

25 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said:

Possible, from a competitive and travel standpoint (heck, it's a lot easier for Avon to travel to Ben Davis than to Noblesville)....

If I looked into my crystal ball....I think this is a possible outcome of a possible realignment:

North HCC/MIC/Whatever

1. Carmel
2. Fishers
3. HSE
4. Noblesville
5. North Central
6. Westfield
7. Zionsville

South HCC/MIC/Whatever

1. Avon
2. Ben Davis
3. Brownsburg
4. Center Grove
5. Franklin Central
6. Warren Central

Would these get sprinkled in?:

• Cathedral (it could happen😁)
• Cbus North
• DC
• LC
• LN
• Pike

My Crystal Ball also plays endless South Park and Reno 911 reruns...so there's that

[WestfieldRocks]

18 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said:

Possible, from a competitive and travel standpoint (heck, it's a lot easier for Avon to travel to Ben Davis than to Noblesville), but the other issue is this. The HCC schools are *very* good in non-football/basketball sports. It's the best baseball conference in the state, and one could argue, also the best in soccer, softball and one of the best in volleyball. It's probably a slight cut above the MIC in girls hoops, and even/slightly behind the MIC in football and boys hoops. However, in the other sports - baseball, softball, volleyball, tennis, soccer, individual sports except track & field and wrestling - the MIC schools would struggle to be competitive with the HCC ones. 

You also have an issue where the MIC schools are somewhat notorious for not bringing much of a road crowd, whereas the HCC schools typically have decent support. I've heard that stated by ADs as a reason to *not* invite a team into a conference that would otherwise be a good geographical and competitive fit. If you have to have 3/4 home games in multiple sports against teams that aren't going to bring a crowd, that can cost you a *lot* of money. That's another reason why you might not see such a merger. 

You are spot on about HCC schools being very good in almost all sports, especially non football/basketball. One of the individual sports that they are very good at is cross country. 5 of the 25 teams that qualified for the Girls State Finals were HCC teams. 6 of the 8 HCC boys teams qualified for the 25 state finals spots, with Noblesville (2), Brownsburg (3), and Fishers (5) all finishing top 5. Ben Davis was the lone MIC school in the boys race, and no MIC schools were in the girls race. HCC teams took the top 4 sports in this fall's girls state golf championships (Z'ville, Noblesville, HSE, and Westfield). No MIC schools were in either of these state finals events.

[adambetz]

14 minutes ago, US31 said:

If I looked into my crystal ball....I think this is a possible outcome of a possible realignment:

North HCC/MIC/Whatever

1. Carmel
2. Fishers
3. HSE
4. Noblesville
5. North Central
6. Westfield
7. Zionsville

South HCC/MIC/Whatever

1. Avon
2. Ben Davis
3. Brownsburg
4. Center Grove
5. Franklin Central
6. Warren Central

Would these get sprinkled in?:

• Cathedral (it could happen😁)
• Cbus North
• DC
• LC
• LN
• Pike

My Crystal Ball also plays endless South Park and Reno 911 reruns...so there's that

Beware ManBearPig and avoid Casa Bonita mate.

No room for the other Mid-State schools and the Hancock County schools in this potential realignment?

[crimsonace1]

1 hour ago, adambetz said:

Beware ManBearPig and avoid Casa Bonita mate.

No room for the other Mid-State schools and the Hancock County schools in this potential realignment?

At this point, those schools are *way* too small for this realignment. This is a bunch of 6A schools and, right now, Whiteland is the only one of the Mid-State/Hancock County schools even close to 6A. 

Both the MIC and HCC have only one school below 2,500 students right now. 

Mt. Vernon (1,450ish) may get there in about 10 years if it continues its current rate of growth, but they're still about 700 students shy of being 6A. They'll be 5A next cycle. New Pal's growth is a little bit behind MV's, but I wouldn't be shocked if they're 6A in 15 years. They're at about 1,300. Greenfield-Central and Pendleton Heights are growing much, much more slowly as they're farther away from Indy/jobs/et al. 

What I could see happening is some reshuffling between the Hancock County, Conference Indiana and Mid-State schools. 

[adambetz]

33 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said:

At this point, those schools are *way* too small for this realignment. This is a bunch of 6A schools and, right now, Whiteland is the only one of the Mid-State/Hancock County schools even close to 6A. 

Both the MIC and HCC have only one school below 2,500 students right now. 

Mt. Vernon (1,450ish) may get there in about 10 years if it continues its current rate of growth, but they're still about 700 students shy of being 6A. They'll be 5A next cycle. New Pal's growth is a little bit behind MV's, but I wouldn't be shocked if they're 6A in 15 years. They're at about 1,300. Greenfield-Central and Pendleton Heights are growing much, much more slowly as they're farther away from Indy/jobs/et al. 

What I could see happening is some reshuffling between the Hancock County, Conference Indiana and Mid-State schools. 

All valid! Maybe one day.

What about Perry Meridian?

[HoopsCoach]

2 hours ago, US31 said:

If I looked into my crystal ball....I think this is a possible outcome of a possible realignment:

North HCC/MIC/Whatever

1. Carmel
2. Fishers
3. HSE
4. Noblesville
5. North Central
6. Westfield
7. Zionsville

South HCC/MIC/Whatever

1. Avon
2. Ben Davis
3. Brownsburg
4. Center Grove
5. Franklin Central
6. Warren Central

Would these get sprinkled in?:

• Cathedral (it could happen😁)
• Cbus North
• DC
• LC
• LN
• Pike

My Crystal Ball also plays endless South Park and Reno 911 reruns...so there's that

 

30 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said:

At this point, those schools are *way* too small for this realignment. This is a bunch of 6A schools and, right now, Whiteland is the only one of the Mid-State/Hancock County schools even close to 6A. 

Both the MIC and HCC have only one school below 2,500 students right now. 

Mt. Vernon (1,450ish) may get there in about 10 years if it continues its current rate of growth, but they're still about 700 students shy of being 6A. They'll be 5A next cycle. New Pal's growth is a little bit behind MV's, but I wouldn't be shocked if they're 6A in 15 years. They're at about 1,300. Greenfield-Central and Pendleton Heights are growing much, much more slowly as they're farther away from Indy/jobs/et al. 

What I could see happening is some reshuffling between the Hancock County, Conference Indiana and Mid-State schools. 

Here’s my hypothetical realignment of the large schools in central Indiana.

Metropolitan Crossroads Conference
North Division

Carmel 5200

Fishers 3664

Hamilton Southeastern 3442

Noblesville 3208

Westfield 2789

Zionsville 2309

Central Division

Ben Davis 4567

North Central 3616

Warren Central 3369

Pike 3192

Lawrence North 2817

Lawrence Central 2404

South Division

Avon 3476

Franklin Central 3362

Brownsburg 3297

Center Grove 2893

Southport 2368

Columbus North 2267

- In football, schools will play the 5 opponents in their division, plus 1 opponent from each of the other 2 divisions for a 7 game conference schedule.  This allows some rivalries or matchups schools want to keep going to continue across divisions.  It may also permit schools that don’t want anything to do with each other to avoid playing.

Mid-State Conference

Perry Meridian 2359

Whiteland 2074

Decatur Central 2050

Plainfield 1773

Bloomington South 1656

Terre Haute South 1609

Bloomington North 1558

Terre Haute North 1467

 

Hoosier Heritage Conference

Franklin Community 1590

Mt Vernon (Fortville) 1455

Greenfield-Central 1430

Mooresville 1398

Pendleton Heights 1353

Martinsville 1315

Greenwood 1211

New Palestine 1209

- Membership in these two conferences is somewhat divided east and west.  As some of these schools grow and others decline, this alignment could change.

[AnnieJ91]

13 hours ago, FastpacedO said:

Yes, they could look in Bloomington. There is this Coach Curt Cignetti, if they google him they will see he wins.

Only kidding! I have been pondering some possible candidates since last night.

Just a little bit south of Memorial Stadium is another candidate - Gabe Johnson of Bloomington South. Former assistant at Carmel. He's taken a young team that struggled at the beginning of the season to regionals, and is favored tomorrow night against Castle.

[Bash Riprock]

19 hours ago, crimsonace1 said:

The issues I was referencing earlier - at least in other sports - tends to involve parents getting involved in the youth feeder system not to help the community's kids, but to elevate their own kids over others. Because Carmel is so large and varsity spots are so scarce, it's extremely competitive, and you'll have a few who will try to work the system to their advantage (and then cry foul when it doesn't happen). 

Those people are in *every* community, but it can be a bit more prevalent in a community where there's enough talent to field 3-4 quality varsity teams and only 1 team's worth of spots. 

I am not sure the cause for decline.  Perhaps parent "over invested" is the primary cause.  But I am not seeing the same organization, coaching and talent that I've seen in the past.  I am not sure about their total numbers playing football.  That's why I believe any prospective coach needs to dive into their feeder system, especially in this age where the competition is far more fierce than it was a decade or so ago.  Everyone talks about Westfield (not even a thought 10 years ago) HSE, Fishers, etc. for good reason.  I believe Noblesville won the IEFA championship this year.  Carmel had a losing record.  Lots of improvement and competition to also include other suburban schools, CYO, etc.  

Edited November 15, 2024 by Bash Riprock

[BTF]

8 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

I am not sure the cause for decline.  Perhaps parent "over invested" is the primary cause.  But I am not seeing the same organization, coaching and talent that I've seen in the past.  I am not sure about their total numbers playing football.  That's why I believe any prospective coach needs to dive into their feeder system, especially in this age where the competition is far more fierce than it was a decade or so ago.  Everyone talks about Westfield (not even a thought 10 years ago) HSE, Fishers, etc. for good reason.  I believe Noblesville won the IEFA championship this year.  Carmel had a losing record.  Lots of improvement and competition to also include other suburban schools, CYO, etc.  

I imagine in a community like that you have more parents talking their sons into playing more country club sports. Maybe lacrosse. I could be wrong. But I do know this: An enrollment school of 5200 should be Top 3 in the state every year. 

[Bobref]

14 minutes ago, BTF said:

I imagine in a community like that you have more parents talking their sons into playing more country club sports. Maybe lacrosse. I could be wrong. But I do know this: An enrollment school of 5200 should be Top 3 in the state every year. 

I trust you’re not referring to lacrosse as a “country club sport.” We used to call it “the little brother of War.” You don’t see that much at country clubs.

[CWPRD67]

22 hours ago, BDGiant93 said:

There's a certain former Carmel coach coaching at Sheridan right now with his dad who might be a good fit once again if he's interested.

There's the emotional choice to stay in Sheridan and build on that family legacy or (if given the opportunity again) the business choice to go back down 31 a few miles and run it back... this opening will be interesting, that's for certain.

20 hours ago, 1st_and_10 said:

There was a plane flying around a Carmel last spring... These are the people you would have to deal with... 

An Angry Parent Paid For An Airplane To Fly A "Carmel Baseball Is Daddy Ball" Over Their High School (JV!!!) Baseball Game | Barstool Sports

And that coach left to coach college ball in Ann Arbor

[BTF]

8 minutes ago, Bobref said:

I trust you’re not referring to lacrosse as a “country club sport.” We used to call it “the little brother of War.” You don’t see that much at country clubs.

I just presumed it was a country club sport. I guess I really don't understand the definition. White collar comes to mind. 

[CWPRD67]

19 hours ago, US31 said:

If I looked into my crystal ball....I think this is a possible outcome of a possible realignment:

North HCC/MIC/Whatever

1. Carmel
2. Fishers
3. HSE
4. Noblesville
5. North Central
6. Westfield
7. Zionsville

South HCC/MIC/Whatever

1. Avon
2. Ben Davis
3. Brownsburg
4. Center Grove
5. Franklin Central
6. Warren Central

Would these get sprinkled in?:

• Cathedral (it could happen😁)
• Cbus North
• DC
• LC
• LN
• Pike

My Crystal Ball also plays endless South Park and Reno 911 reruns...so there's that

There was once a rumor about an HCC/MIC 16 team "mega conference" where strength of schedule was determined by the last years record, that I think could be viable but a lot of work in negotiation rooms.

[Bobref]

53 minutes ago, BTF said:

I just presumed it was a country club sport. I guess I really don't understand the definition. White collar comes to mind. 

It’s not a country club sport. Perhaps you’re confusing lacrosse with polo? 🤣😂

[BTF]

11 minutes ago, Bobref said:

It’s not a country club sport. Perhaps you’re confusing lacrosse with polo? 🤣😂

Lol, I know what LaCrosse is. It' for kids who aren't quite tough enough for football. 

[Muda69]

1 hour ago, Bash Riprock said:

I am not sure the cause for decline.  Perhaps parent "over invested" is the primary cause.  But I am not seeing the same organization, coaching and talent that I've seen in the past.  I am not sure about their total numbers playing football.  That's why I believe any prospective coach needs to dive into their feeder system, especially in this age where the competition is far more fierce than it was a decade or so ago.  Everyone talks about Westfield (not even a thought 10 years ago) HSE, Fishers, etc. for good reason.  I believe Noblesville won the IEFA championship this year.  Carmel had a losing record.  Lots of improvement and competition to also include other suburban schools, CYO, etc.  

Whatever happened to the vaunted Carmel Dad's Club?  Isn't it their job to make sure CHS has a stable properly trained football automatons?