Public School SWEEP?!?

[JQWL]

32 minutes ago, foxbat said:

You're mixing at least a couple of different concepts together which aren't the same.  Controlling for admissions standards is distinctly different than the accusatory reduction of enrollment for athletic purposes ... and again, I think it's a leap to try to co-mingle the two to make an accusation. 

As for why they don't, the number of folks who send their kids to private schools SOLELY for the religious aspect, is not a majority.  Some do it solely for tradition and/or religion, but I can say that most look at that as an ADDED item.  They are looking for academics and a private school that can't deliver on academics will falter regardless of religion.

Again, having sat in the pews during enrollment week and again, coming from traditional Catholic education families, I've now lived in four different states and not in any one of those states have I ever heard of or seen a Catholic school limit numbers for athletics. 

 

No, that's your conjecture.  At least be big enough to say that, in your opinion that's what you think.  I gave two SPECIFIC instances using two SPECIFIC schools where the foundational argument that you were making to make an accusation, population increase in an area coupled with decrease in a school's enrollment has some artificial correlation.  As @Bobref is fond of saying, and applies in this case, "Correlation does not equal causation."  By your logic, Providence was willing to give up over $800,000 in tuition just to drop down to 1A to win a (maybe) pair of state rings only to be thrust up into 2A on an SF charge is equally laughable.  And again, it's interesting that the basis of the accusation is conjecture, whereas there has been details shown that poke big holes in the foundational argument for accusation that you are making. 

I'll give you another specific example to disprove the idea: Traders Point Christian.  Started out in IHSAA ineligible for tournament in its early years due to newness.  First year they were eligible they had 128 students in their whole school.  Never really got much bigger.  If the numbers are so easy to pickup, and these folks are out in the same neck of the woods with Pike, Westfield, Zionsville, Brownsburg, and Lebanon ... with those first four schools, 5A and 6A level, being less than 10 miles away ... why wouldn't Trader's Point Christian control their numbers upwards of 200 students to be able to dominate 1A football?  Matter of fact, they've gone in the opposite direction and opted to now play 8-man ball.  This is a team that, adding 200 folks from the 2nd/3rd string coffers of Westfield and Brownsburg, would easily run roughshod over 1A. 

*WARNING: All things I have posted about my opinion, are indeed my opinion. Also, my opinion as to that Providence has done a good job managing its enrollment does not reflect other private schools that I have not mentioned and what they have or have not done with their enrollment.

[jets]

P/P have to have "some" sort of advantage, or they wouldn't be constantly winning State Championships - SO- LET'S GET BACK ON TOPIC if we can ...is THIS the year they (P/P's) don't capture a State Championship??? (Hasn't happened since 2005) 

AND - if it does happen - is that proof that the SF is in fact working?? 

[CoachMack219]

30 minutes ago, jets said:

P/P have to have "some" sort of advantage, or they wouldn't be constantly winning State Championships

Agreed. 

Quote

- SO- LET'S GET BACK ON TOPIC if we can ...is THIS the year they (P/P's) don't capture a State Championship??? (Hasn't happened since 2005) 

I'm gonna vote yes as the risk of Luers people shredding me apart. Lol 

Quote

AND - if it does happen - is that proof that the SF is in fact working?? 

I'm gonna roll with no. Would probably need to see a few more years that look like this to believe/ argue that Success Factor is the WHY behind Public School's increase (or P/P's decrease) in State Championships. 

[foxbat]

34 minutes ago, jets said:

P/P have to have "some" sort of advantage, or they wouldn't be constantly winning State Championships - SO- LET'S GET BACK ON TOPIC if we can ...is THIS the year they (P/P's) don't capture a State Championship??? (Hasn't happened since 2005) 

AND - if it does happen - is that proof that the SF is in fact working?? 

I don't know that it's definitive proof that it's completely working, but if the idea is that it's allowing a greater number of others to have a chance at more success in the future, then I'd say it's leaning in the right direction.  The biggest flaws in SF that I have tended to identify seem to be tied to the idea that SF was developed to provide a workaround a P/P issue as opposed to thinking about longer term success.  This is similar to the wisdom of having Chatard SF'd to 4A only to play cute with assigning them to the same sectional as Roncalli or the 3A Catholic Sectional of Death. 

First, SF should have been based on a 4-year evaluation as opposed to 2-year for moving up.  I'd suspect, although I don't have direct proof, is that the idea was to "hurry up" and get P/Ps SF'd up as soon as possible.  The P/Ps that moved up in the first round, most likely would have also garnered enough points over four years early on ... think LCC, Scecina and Cathedral.  Later on Lutheran.  Frankly, I'd be OK with using four-year cycles to move up and a two-year cycle to move down.  i think that would better address the issue of programs versus a couple good teams and also minimize the negative impact on a team that maybe had a good team for three years based on a unique pairing of kids as opposed to a program.

Second big mistake was requiring 4 points to stay originally.  If it had been 2 points, looking at just LCC, they would not have returned to 1A to pick up a state title in 2015.  The question is also, in those couple years when LCC returned, Pioneer was having a phenomenal run.  That's pretty much what kept LCC in 1A for an additional half decade or so.  Had LCC stayed in 2A, they picked up two points in their first visit, would they have been able to pick up sectional titles in those next three classification cycles?  Haven't looked at the details closely, but the last four years since LCC returned to 2A, LCC has picked up three sectionals and a regional, so it's possible.  In which case, LCC would have been absent from 1A since 2012 and not have picked up an additional two blue rings.

The last issue is the recent monkeying with the points to stay up and moving it from 2 to 3 points.  Again, I suspect this is directed at making sure that public schools don't spend any more time up a class than they have to; especially if the issue that we've almost all complained about is SF "punishing" programs for the success of a couple of team years.  I think if you got SF'd and you can pick up a pair of sectionals the first two years that you move up, especially if we went to a 4-year move-up cycle, I think it's fair enough to say that a program is competitive and leave them there.  I think that the 3-point rule is going to lead to additional yo-yoing that is going to make getting to some desired equilibrium much harder.

Just my 2-3 cents take on it. 

[WestfieldRocks]

1 hour ago, foxbat said:

It is a kinder, gentler Catholic education.  I heard the nuns have now moved to non-corporal correction as opposed to the rulers wielded like Crusaders back when I was in Catholic grade school.

 

Just rulers? Back in my day, the nuns each had a paddle in their classrooms, displayed so that every kid would see it. The sight of it scared the you know what out of most of us. Believe me, they were not afraid to use them.

[Bobref]

2 hours ago, foxbat said:

It is a kinder, gentler Catholic education.  I heard the nuns have now moved to non-corporal correction as opposed to the rulers wielded like Crusaders back when I was in Catholic grade school.

 

 

13 minutes ago, WestfieldRocks said:

Just rulers? Back in my day, the nuns each had a paddle in their classrooms, displayed so that every kid would see it. The sight of it scared the you know what out of most of us. Believe me, they were not afraid to use them.

Rulers? Paddles? That’s kids’  stuff. The nuns in my grade school used the blackboard pointers — essentially a wooden dowel. Those things really stung.

[WestfieldRocks]

1 hour ago, JQWL said:

*WARNING: All things I have posted about my opinion, are indeed my opinion. Also, my opinion as to that Providence has done a good job managing its enrollment does not reflect other private schools that I have not mentioned and what they have or have not done with their enrollment.

Regarding Providence, is the geographic location a factor in their athletic success? They are only short distance away from that big city across the river. I know when Westfield played and lost there in the 2A semi state in the 90's, there were cars with Kentucky license plates in the parking lot. Just wondering how many kids cross the border to attend Providence. Looking at the public school, Clarksville, which was 0-10 and blown out in almost all of their games, including against Providence, that's a huge difference in success.

[FastpacedO]

1 hour ago, WestfieldRocks said:

Regarding Providence, is the geographic location a factor in their athletic success? They are only short distance away from that big city across the river. I know when Westfield played and lost there in the 2A semi state in the 90's, there were cars with Kentucky license plates in the parking lot. Just wondering how many kids cross the border to attend Providence. Looking at the public school, Clarksville, which was 0-10 and blown out in almost all of their games, including against Providence, that's a huge difference in success.

Clarksville has had ebb's and flows. They were 5-6 in 2022 in 2006 they were 10-2  losing in double OT to Brownstown Central they had a couple of winning seasons after that but not many. Providence has also had ebb and flows, they haven't been 0-10 bad but they have had some sub .500 seasons. Providence was solid in 2022 and 2023 but their season was ended by a very good Lutheran football team.

[PHJIrish]

10 hours ago, tango said:

Your comments indicate you have little to no understanding of how private and parochial schools operate. There is no such school in the state that "cuts enrollment" in order to achieve athletic success. 

Like!  (I guess I'm down to one "like" a day now.

[PHJIrish]

The success factor is indeed a p/p leveler.  In fact a short time back, the Commissioner at that time, name omitted,  changed the rules just a few weeks before football season, that kept Cathedral from "falling" to a lower level.  Now that's real discrimination.  And further, as I've stated here every year after the season, if you know of any P/P school violating the laws, contact the IHSAA immediately and report it.

[Tippy]

1 hour ago, PHJIrish said:

The success factor is indeed a p/p leveler.  In fact a short time back, the Commissioner at that time, name omitted,  changed the rules just a few weeks before football season, that kept Cathedral from "falling" to a lower level.  Now that's real discrimination.  And further, as I've stated here every year after the season, if you know of any P/P school violating the laws, contact the IHSAA immediately and report it.

At least its not as bad as it was in the 1920's and 1930's.  Cathedral wasn't allowed to be a member of the IHSAA until 1942.

[PHJIrish]

11 minutes ago, Tippy said:

At least its not as bad as it was in the 1920's and 1930's.  Cathedral wasn't allowed to be a member of the IHSAA until 1942.

Quite true.  

[tango]

2 hours ago, PHJIrish said:

Quite true.  

As with all Catholic schools

[Titan32]

18 hours ago, PHJIrish said:

The success factor is indeed a p/p leveler.  In fact a short time back, the Commissioner at that time, name omitted,  changed the rules just a few weeks before football season, that kept Cathedral from "falling" to a lower level.  Now that's real discrimination.  And further, as I've stated here every year after the season, if you know of any P/P school violating the laws, contact the IHSAA immediately and report it.

A minimally affective one at best.  More reform is needed.

[WestfieldRocks]

On 11/25/2024 at 6:11 PM, PHJIrish said:

The success factor is indeed a p/p leveler.  In fact a short time back, the Commissioner at that time, name omitted,  changed the rules just a few weeks before football season, that kept Cathedral from "falling" to a lower level.  Now that's real discrimination.  And further, as I've stated here every year after the season, if you know of any P/P school violating the laws, contact the IHSAA immediately and report it.

It has happened before:

Providence was suspended from the boys basketball tournament in 2004-05 for violations of administrative responsibility and undue influence (recruiting athletes). That ruling came prior to the season and Providence was allowed to play the regular season while on probation (and went 19-1).

Similarly, Scecina's boys basketball program was placed on probation for the 2003-04 season and suspended from participating in the tournament for administrative responsibility and undue influence.

Brebeuf Jesuit was banned from the tournament in 1992 after the IHSAA found the school guilty of undue influence following the enrollment of freshman Justin Farley, who had been in the Pike system.

 

[tango]

54 minutes ago, WestfieldRocks said:

It has happened before:

Providence was suspended from the boys basketball tournament in 2004-05 for violations of administrative responsibility and undue influence (recruiting athletes). That ruling came prior to the season and Providence was allowed to play the regular season while on probation (and went 19-1).

Similarly, Scecina's boys basketball program was placed on probation for the 2003-04 season and suspended from participating in the tournament for administrative responsibility and undue influence.

Brebeuf Jesuit was banned from the tournament in 1992 after the IHSAA found the school guilty of undue influence following the enrollment of freshman Justin Farley, who had been in the Pike system.

 

Just to add to your incredibly long list... Ev. Memorial was suspended from post-season play in 1990 in the 3 major boys sports. That's makes 4 in the nearly 40 years of the current class system. It shocks the conscience...

[Tippy]

1 hour ago, tango said:

Just to add to your incredibly long list... Ev. Memorial was suspended from post-season play in 1990 in the 3 major boys sports. That's makes 4 in the nearly 40 years of the current class system. It shocks the conscience...

Public schools recruit all the time, but it never gets noticed.  In the 1980's there was a really good freshman basketball player at Taylor High school.  He ended up at Kokomo High school the next year.  It was said they used undue influence to get him to transfer to Kokomo.  Nothing ever happened.  Lafayette Jeff was always trying to get LCC kids to transfer to Jeff.  Nothing was ever done to stop it.

[JQWL]

12 hours ago, Tippy said:

Public schools recruit all the time, but it never gets noticed.  In the 1980's there was a really good freshman basketball player at Taylor High school.  He ended up at Kokomo High school the next year.  It was said they used undue influence to get him to transfer to Kokomo.  Nothing ever happened.  Lafayette Jeff was always trying to get LCC kids to transfer to Jeff.  Nothing was ever done to stop it.

I've said this before on here but clearly no one in the IHSAA office has read it. Just make it easy for everyone and stop the charade. Whatever school the student is enrolled at when schools return from dead week, is where the student is eligible at for that school year. The only exception for mid-year change of eligibility would be a legitimate physical move.

Edited November 28, 2024 by JQWL

[Donnie Baker]

I usually do pubic sweeping after manscaping the pork. I gotta go 

[tango]

2 hours ago, JQWL said:

I've said this before on here but clearly no one in the IHSAA office has read it. Just make it easy for everyone and stop the charade. Whatever school the student is enrolled at when schools return from dead week, is where the student is eligible at for that school year. The only exception for mid-year change of eligibility would be a legitimate physical move.

I agree 100%.

[Bobref]

On 11/26/2024 at 11:45 AM, Titan32 said:

A minimally affective one at best.  More reform is needed.

You wouldn’t be satisfied until the p/ps had their own tournament, I bet.

[Titan32]

2 hours ago, Bobref said:

You wouldn’t be satisfied until the p/ps had their own tournament, I bet.

I wouldn't go that far....but the denial on this board runs deeper than a river in Egypt.

I bet you won't be satisfied until all preparatory schools in this state are a private enterprise.

Edited November 28, 2024 by Titan32

[Bobref]

1 hour ago, Titan32 said:

I bet you won't be satisfied until all preparatory schools in this state are a private enterprise.

Where did that come from?

[Muda69]

2 hours ago, Titan32 said:

I wouldn't go that far....but the denial on this board runs deeper than a river in Egypt.

I bet you won't be satisfied until all preparatory schools in this state are a private enterprise.

What is your definition of a Preparatory School?

[PHJIrish]

On 11/25/2024 at 1:17 PM, foxbat said:

I don't know that it's definitive proof that it's completely working, but if the idea is that it's allowing a greater number of others to have a chance at more success in the future, then I'd say it's leaning in the right direction.  The biggest flaws in SF that I have tended to identify seem to be tied to the idea that SF was developed to provide a workaround a P/P issue as opposed to thinking about longer term success.  This is similar to the wisdom of having Chatard SF'd to 4A only to play cute with assigning them to the same sectional as Roncalli or the 3A Catholic Sectional of Death. 

First, SF should have been based on a 4-year evaluation as opposed to 2-year for moving up.  I'd suspect, although I don't have direct proof, is that the idea was to "hurry up" and get P/Ps SF'd up as soon as possible.  The P/Ps that moved up in the first round, most likely would have also garnered enough points over four years early on ... think LCC, Scecina and Cathedral.  Later on Lutheran.  Frankly, I'd be OK with using four-year cycles to move up and a two-year cycle to move down.  i think that would better address the issue of programs versus a couple good teams and also minimize the negative impact on a team that maybe had a good team for three years based on a unique pairing of kids as opposed to a program.

Second big mistake was requiring 4 points to stay originally.  If it had been 2 points, looking at just LCC, they would not have returned to 1A to pick up a state title in 2015.  The question is also, in those couple years when LCC returned, Pioneer was having a phenomenal run.  That's pretty much what kept LCC in 1A for an additional half decade or so.  Had LCC stayed in 2A, they picked up two points in their first visit, would they have been able to pick up sectional titles in those next three classification cycles?  Haven't looked at the details closely, but the last four years since LCC returned to 2A, LCC has picked up three sectionals and a regional, so it's possible.  In which case, LCC would have been absent from 1A since 2012 and not have picked up an additional two blue rings.

The last issue is the recent monkeying with the points to stay up and moving it from 2 to 3 points.  Again, I suspect this is directed at making sure that public schools don't spend any more time up a class than they have to; especially if the issue that we've almost all complained about is SF "punishing" programs for the success of a couple of team years.  I think if you got SF'd and you can pick up a pair of sectionals the first two years that you move up, especially if we went to a 4-year move-up cycle, I think it's fair enough to say that a program is competitive and leave them there.  I think that the 3-point rule is going to lead to additional yo-yoing that is going to make getting to some desired equilibrium much harder.

Just my 2-3 cents take on it. 

But Cathedral didn't break any rules or misbehave to receive the kind of "ruling" handed down by the IHSAA just a few weeks before the season began.  I guess the Irish just won too much.