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How is this allowed? Seems like a recruiting tool.


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Bishop Chatard Football Camp

- Finch Creek Fieldhouse -

 
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Come sharpen your football skills with STATE CHAMPION coaches and the D1 Training Finch Creek team.  This 3 week program is for athletes grades 5th-8th, and geared for both lineman and skill position players.

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Every school has a grade school football camp.  Right?   

When my son was younger he went to FC and Roncalli basketball camps to get more court time and I even thought about sending him to Southport's.

Move a long.  Nothing to see here.....

 

 

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Chatard has had a kids camp for YEARS now. As others have and will say, a lot of schools do. We canceled ours last year, but Trai Essex helps us out with it. He is a great dude too. 
one other point to raise....recruiting is not a bad word. People use it often, but a LOT of schools do recruiting of some sort, when the actual term that can cause problems is “undue influence”. 

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Former Snider legend Rod Woodson held a camp at Snider from 1994 to 2008 in which he brought in fellow pro's as instructors. There were always rumors that he steered kids toward Snider but nothing ever came of it because it was a public school like Tri-West.

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1 hour ago, Grover said:

Why don't they open it to high school kids?

It is during the school year and out of season. Their high school kids could not attend.

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16 minutes ago, coachkj said:

You can fact check me.  In the eyes of the IHSAA there is no such thing as "undue influence" (recruiting) below grade 9.

You are incorrect. Read bylaw 20-2

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My guess is what you’ll find attending will be almost entirely CYO kids.   Mine went to both the Chatard and Cathedral versions back in the day.   Part of the ongoing competition for North side CYO kids and really the only Archdiocese-approved way Chatard is permitted to reach out to them.

Generally these are in the summer.  Guessing again, but I’ll bet that Chatard wasn’t able to have their camp last summer.

 

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I don’t see any issue with this being undue influence.  Now if this flyer was posted in the hallways at Carmel, North Central, Lawrence North, Fishers, and the middle schools in those districts, then it would be more of an undue influence.

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To clarify my post.......these camps are a tool to recruit. There are many of us who run youth camps. If there was an assumption that I was saying the camp is some form of undue influence, then I apologize. That was not my intent at all. 
 

My only point was to make the distinction the IHSAA does between recruiting and undue influence. Most people do not know the difference, and will often accuse a school of recruiting, when what they actually mean is undue influence. Recruiting in and of itself, is not in violation of IHSAA rules. Most youth camps run by a given school do have limits. They can only invite elementary through incoming freshmen. Camps not associated with a school are allowed to have high school players, like SOS and the Northeast Indiana Skills camps. Coaches that work the camps are told to limit contact with our own players as well. 
 

As far as the undue influence policy......promises of playing time, or for non public schools, scholarships or other money are just a couple of things that qualify as undue influence, and yes a high school can get in trouble for using undue influence on junior high kids. 

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On 1/22/2021 at 10:27 PM, coachkj said:

Past link?  Freshmen aren't transfer students.  All freshmen are eligible, no matter what. 

Have you actually read the IHSAA bylaws?

Explain your understanding of this bylaw please. Focus on part b.

19-1 Initial Promotion Eligibility

When a student is promoted from grade 8, such student may enter grade 9, and have full eligibility, in a school of such student’s choice provided:

a. such student Enrolls on or before the 15th initial school day at such School; and

b. rule C–20 - Undue Influence has not been violated.

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Here is the issues I have.

One my kid does not go to Chatard or any CYO feeder school, but I still receive that in an email. Wonder why I have not received anything from Ben Davis, Center Grove, Warren Central etc. 

Secondly, it states "Inviting ALL Football Players". Typically a public high school sends out their camp info to the students in their school system.  I have never seen a IHSAA High School advertise their youth camp outside of their cooperation like this. 

Seems very odd of the age group that was chosen as well. 

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1 hour ago, POTLUCK said:

Here is the issues I have.

One my kid does not go to Chatard or any CYO feeder school, but I still receive that in an email. Wonder why I have not received anything from Ben Davis, Center Grove, Warren Central etc. 

Secondly, it states "Inviting ALL Football Players". Typically a public high school sends out their camp info to the students in their school system.  I have never seen a IHSAA High School advertise their youth camp outside of their cooperation like this. 

Seems very odd of the age group that was chosen as well. 

Where did they get your e-mail address?

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11 hours ago, POTLUCK said:

Here is the issues I have.

One my kid does not go to Chatard or any CYO feeder school, but I still receive that in an email. Wonder why I have not received anything from Ben Davis, Center Grove, Warren Central etc. 

Secondly, it states "Inviting ALL Football Players". Typically a public high school sends out their camp info to the students in their school system.  I have never seen a IHSAA High School advertise their youth camp outside of their cooperation like this. 

Seems very odd of the age group that was chosen as well. 

My guess is that the large schools in the Indy area have enough kids attending from their own district, they don't really want to advertise outside of it. If you are getting emails from those schools, you either attend a parish, or have shown an interest on some level......for them to have your email address means you have given it to the school sending you the camp info. As far as kids outside a district; we have done that with our Essex Camp.....I even post on Facebook, inviting friends to send their kids. 

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17 hours ago, sr1 said:

Have you actually read the IHSAA bylaws?

Explain your understanding of this bylaw please. Focus on part b.

19-1 Initial Promotion Eligibility

When a student is promoted from grade 8, such student may enter grade 9, and have full eligibility, in a school of such student’s choice provided:

a. such student Enrolls on or before the 15th initial school day at such School; and

b. rule C–20 - Undue Influence has not been violated.

As far as camps go a "past link" is up for interpretation.  My understanding is it was put in place for schools hiring AAU coaches as assistants to get to their kids.  The rule doesn't say "coached at a camp".  You can choose to think it does. I don't.  I don't believe the IHSAA does either.  And if that student were deemed ineligible they would be JV for 365 and have 3 full years of varsity competition.  I have thoroughly read the by-laws.

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1 hour ago, coachkj said:

As far as camps go a "past link" is up for interpretation.  My understanding is it was put in place for schools hiring AAU coaches as assistants to get to their kids.  The rule doesn't say "coached at a camp".  You can choose to think it does. I don't.  I don't believe the IHSAA does either.  And if that student were deemed ineligible they would be JV for 365 and have 3 full years of varsity competition.  I have thoroughly read the by-laws.

(3.) The transfer student received instruction from a coach, manager, trainer, volunteer or employee who was a coach, manager, trainer, volunteer or employee at the Receiving School at the time the transfer student enrolled at the Receiving School, or had been a coach, manager, trainer, volunteer or employee at the Receiving School anytime during the Twelve (12) month period prior to the student’s enrollment at the Receiving School, or became a coach, manager, trainer, volunteer or employee at the Receiving School anytime during the Ninety (90) day period after the student’s enrollment at the Receiving School.

And

20-8 Attendance at High School Camps and Clinics by Non-Feeder School Student Prohibited Following their eighth grade year, students may not attend a high school’s athletic camps or clinics unless they are attending a Feeder School or have Enrolled in the sponsoring school. Athletic brochures, special invitations, camp fliers, etc. shall not be issued to select students from non-Feeder Schools unless specifically requested by the parent/s

And

20-9 Participation by Non-Feeder School Student in High School Activities Prohibited Prior to Enrollment, a student of any age from a non-Feeder School may not be made a part of an activity related to athletics including, but not limited to, such gatherings as pep sessions, Practices, special trips, conditioning, Open Facilities, Contests, special use of facilities, special visits, free spirit items or clothing

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12 hours ago, Irishman said:

My guess is that the large schools in the Indy area have enough kids attending from their own district, they don't really want to advertise outside of it. If you are getting emails from those schools, you either attend a parish, or have shown an interest on some level......for them to have your email address means you have given it to the school sending you the camp info. As far as kids outside a district; we have done that with our Essex Camp.....I even post on Facebook, inviting friends to send their kids. 

 

21 hours ago, SBFootball1 said:

Where did they get your e-mail address?

Where they got my email address is a great question. I have never inquired about my kids going to Chatard and I do not attend a Parish. What is your ESSEX camp? IF that is a business that is different than a high school advertising their camp to the entire state! G2 is the same way. Yes it may be coached by Mooresville coaches, but it is not advertised as a Mooresville Football Camp. The issue at hand is you have a school who's school district is the entire state, so I guess they feel like they can advertise to the entire state. 

I also find it very ironic that most of the defenders of this are also from Catholic Schools. 

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10 hours ago, sr1 said:

(3.) The transfer student received instruction from a coach, manager, trainer, volunteer or employee who was a coach, manager, trainer, volunteer or employee at the Receiving School at the time the transfer student enrolled at the Receiving School, or had been a coach, manager, trainer, volunteer or employee at the Receiving School anytime during the Twelve (12) month period prior to the student’s enrollment at the Receiving School, or became a coach, manager, trainer, volunteer or employee at the Receiving School anytime during the Ninety (90) day period after the student’s enrollment at the Receiving School.

And

20-8 Attendance at High School Camps and Clinics by Non-Feeder School Student Prohibited Following their eighth grade year, students may not attend a high school’s athletic camps or clinics unless they are attending a Feeder School or have Enrolled in the sponsoring school. Athletic brochures, special invitations, camp fliers, etc. shall not be issued to select students from non-Feeder Schools unless specifically requested by the parent/s

And

20-9 Participation by Non-Feeder School Student in High School Activities Prohibited Prior to Enrollment, a student of any age from a non-Feeder School may not be made a part of an activity related to athletics including, but not limited to, such gatherings as pep sessions, Practices, special trips, conditioning, Open Facilities, Contests, special use of facilities, special visits, free spirit items or clothing

(3.)  Again, I believe this applies to students who are grade 8 and below.  If it is, what is the punishment?  Student ineligible for varsity competition for 365?

20-8. Only applies to  students who have finished 8th grade.

20-9.  A youth camp is not "High School Activities".  Youth camps are not open facilities.    

 

I haven't done this but I would be absolutely shocked if there was any violation ever acted on by the IHSAA to students grade 8 and lower.  They just don't. I'm sure the IHSAA has been sent the Chatard flyer.  Good chance it came from someone on this site.  Its not that the IHSAA doesn't care and lets Chatard do anything they want, its because there isn't a violation.

 

 

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3 hours ago, POTLUCK said:

 

Where they got my email address is a great question. I have never inquired about my kids going to Chatard and I do not attend a Parish. What is your ESSEX camp? IF that is a business that is different than a high school advertising their camp to the entire state! G2 is the same way. Yes it may be coached by Mooresville coaches, but it is not advertised as a Mooresville Football Camp. The issue at hand is you have a school who's school district is the entire state, so I guess they feel like they can advertise to the entire state. 

I also find it very ironic that most of the defenders of this are also from Catholic Schools. 

I mentioned our camp in my first reply...Trai Essex sponsors the camp. It is run by our high school staff at New Haven, and is open to kids in the community, but we are not allowed to have current high school players because it is just our staff. I also work the Northeast Indiana Skills Camp that is junior high and high school level. It is a mix of coaches from various programs. The only restriction there is to keep from coaching more than a couple of kids from our own programs. The notion that they can draw from the entire State is a bit much. If Chatard were doing things at their camp like offering tuition money, promising playing time, etc. then it is a problem. If they are just coaching position skills, agility drills, etc., then there is nothing wrong with them having the camp. As far as how you were contacted, I have a difficult time believing that Chatard somehow subscribes to a service that supplies random email addresses from the Central Indiana area. From past experience coaching and teaching in Catholic schools, the IHSAA did tell those schools specifically that cold contacting......mail, email, and phone calls out of the blue with parents and/or athletes who had no prior contact, was not allowed; soooooooooo

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8 hours ago, POTLUCK said:

 

Where they got my email address is a great question. I have never inquired about my kids going to Chatard and I do not attend a Parish. What is your ESSEX camp? IF that is a business that is different than a high school advertising their camp to the entire state! G2 is the same way. Yes it may be coached by Mooresville coaches, but it is not advertised as a Mooresville Football Camp. The issue at hand is you have a school who's school district is the entire state, so I guess they feel like they can advertise to the entire state. 

I also find it very ironic that most of the defenders of this are also from Catholic Schools. 

They don't get many players from down here.  

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