Sectional Draw 2023

[BTF]

1 hour ago, Lysander said:

So why did these new 5A teams merit an abortive 32 team class?  Beats me.

A 64 team 5A would simply be a much better Class.  

To be clear, as ridiculous as I consider a 3 team “Sectional” to be, I consider 5A, in its current 32 team format to be entirely ludicrous.

Thanks for the response. I'm wondering why the "5A is weak" threads started when Cathedral left 5A. It wasn't weak when they were there? You just acknowledged that 5A was a gift to Cathedral, to which I would agree. But what about the other posters? Why is 5A all of a sudden weak? Westfield and Zionsville bumped up, I get that. Merrillville and Valpo bumped down. Snider and Cathedral will bounce back and forth. It's kind of a wash if you ask me. But no one made that claim when Cathedral was stockpiling their trophy case. One thing is for certain. Valpo earned their title last year.

Why did the new 5A merit a 32 team class? That's simple. The largest school sat at 5000, while the smallest sat at 1500. That and the fact that the three largest schools shared almost all of the titles (enter Center Grove). Large enrollment is kind of a big deal when it comes to winning championships. 

I would agree that the 32 team classes should be 6A and 1A. That would put Snider, Valpo, Merrillville, East Central, Reitz, Roncalli, and New Pal in the same class. 

The three team sectional was a result of Dwenger getting an exception (something I know nothing about) during a year there's not suppose to be any movement. 

[Impartial_Observer]

8 hours ago, Slobberknocker said:

How is gate revenue handled in sectional games? Do they split it or does host school get it all?

All of this info is in the fall bulletin. Sectional after all expenses are paid, schools divide evenly among themselves. Regional and beyond all bills are paid and the IHSAA gets the rest. 
Keep in mind, there are some expenses involved. We’ve work several tournament games with checks exceeding $100. That’s $500 just for officials. Don’t forget the ticket people, chain crew, press box personnel, police/security…….. Home team gets concessions  

I have no idea what the media deal is. Assuming IHSAA keeps all that  

 

[Lysander]

I don’t want to get too far from the subject of this thread but I think I may need to clarify my statement a bit based on points/questions raised by both @Komets2727 and @BTF.  I appreciate both your perspectives.

When I was referring to 5A (as it is constituted today), my critique was of the teams that were 5A by actual enrollment not those Success Factored teams like Cathedral, New Pal or Columbus East who were all 4A teams by enrollment.  In fact, they bolstered my point as to the overall weakness of the class.  In the 10 years this new 5A has existed it has been won 7 times by 4A interlopers.  In fact, the year Westfield won they likely were a mid-size 6A school by then.  Only Snider and Valpo have won as actual 5A schools by enrollment.

The fact this was going to occur was something I stated way back when the new 5A was announced because it was so obvious.

As to 4A and potentially 3A in certain years, being superior to 5A teams (by enrollment) it seems pretty clear to me that when 5A is won by a bumped 4A team 7 out of 10 years that the top of 4A is superior.  But aside from that, even in years where a certain 4A team (or even the top 3A team or so) might not be Success Factored “up”, they likely are better than the best 5A school by enrollment.  Certainly East Central both this year and last year would be the odds on favorite in 5A.  Roncalli was much better when it won 4A a couple of years back. It’s hardly been unusual for Chatard to be ranked higher than any 5A by enrollment (I believe it happened in both 2019 and 2020….and is the case currently).

Heck, CalPreps has the top 4A, 3A and EVEN 1A Lutheran ranked ahead of every 5A school currently.  I know Sags has Bloomington South ranked in the Top 10….man, how I wish South hadn’t bailed on that CI/CCC conference game matchup they would usually have played against Chatard last weekend.

My point is that when 70% of the State Championships in your class (5A in this case) are won by teams originally from a class below it seem pretty prima facie evidence of the weakness of the class.  I’m not sure there is anything more definitive….and it’s nothing new.  It’s always been like that.

[Boilernation]

25 minutes ago, Lysander said:

I don’t want to get too far from the subject of this thread but I think I may need to clarify my statement a bit based on points/questions raised by both @Komets2727 and @BTF.  I appreciate both your perspectives.

When I was referring to 5A (as it is constituted today), my critique was of the teams that were 5A by actual enrollment not those Success Factored teams like Cathedral, New Pal or Columbus East who were all 4A teams by enrollment.  In fact, they bolstered my point as to the overall weakness of the class.  In the 10 years this new 5A has existed it has been won 7 times by 4A interlopers.  In fact, the year Westfield won they likely were a mid-size 6A school by then.  Only Snider and Valpo have won as actual 5A schools by enrollment.

The fact this was going to occur was something I stated way back when the new 5A was announced because it was so obvious.

As to 4A and potentially 3A in certain years, being superior to 5A teams (by enrollment) it seems pretty clear to me that when 5A is won by a bumped 4A team 7 out of 10 years that the top of 4A is superior.  But aside from that, even in years where a certain 4A team (or even the top 3A team or so) might not be Success Factored “up”, they likely are better than the best 5A school by enrollment.  Certainly East Central both this year and last year would be the odds on favorite in 5A.  Roncalli was much better when it won 4A a couple of years back. It’s hardly been unusual for Chatard to be ranked higher than any 5A by enrollment (I believe it happened in both 2019 and 2020….and is the case currently).

Heck, CalPreps has the top 4A, 3A and EVEN 1A Lutheran ranked ahead of every 5A school currently.  I know Sags has Bloomington South ranked in the Top 10….man, how I wish South hadn’t bailed on that CI/CCC conference game matchup they would usually have played against Chatard last weekend.

My point is that when 70% of the State Championships in your class (5A in this case) are won by teams originally from a class below it seem pretty prima facie evidence of the weakness of the class.  I’m not sure there is anything more definitive….and it’s nothing new.  It’s always been like that.

You’re naming programs that are light years better than their competition when they’ve competing lower than 5A. Chatard, Cathedral, East Central and Roncalli are all programs far and away on a higher playing level than 4A and below programs. Throw in New Pal (Whose closest game was Valpo) and Columbus East teams who were all arguably the best ever in school history (among to 5-10 in state history for New Pal) sounds to me like you’ve sold the argument that 4A and one team in 3A can be very strong at the top. That doesn’t necessarily mean the classes as a whole were stronger than 5A. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Boilernation

[Lysander]

56 minutes ago, Boilernation said:

You’re naming programs that are light years better than their competition when they’ve competing lower than 5A. Chatard, Cathedral, East Central and Roncalli are all programs far and away on a higher playing level than 4A and below programs. Throw in New Pal (Whose closest game was Valpo) and Columbus East teams who were all arguably the best ever in school history (among to 5-10 in state history for New Pal) sounds to me like you’ve sold the argument that 4A and one team in 3A can be very strong at the top. That doesn’t necessarily mean the classes as a whole were stronger than 5A. 

Shouldn’t 5A have their “own” Chatard, Cathedral, East Central, Columbus East, New Pal or Roncalli?  That’s 5 teams alone in 4A….and let’s not forget just how good Lowell and Reitz were for an extended period 10-15 years ago.  Instead, it’s general mediocrity in 5A.

Outside of Snider, who actually did play in one of the last (maybe “the” last) 64 team 5A State Championship v. Lawrence Central there is no one.  

Why does only 5A lack those teams?  Almost every other class has them.  My point from Day One when 5A came about was that there simply wasn’t a year in and out group of programs that represented the top end excellence you saw in 4A (or other classes).  

I may well be missing something, but outside of Evansville Memorial winning 4A (which was HUGE) a few years ago has any other class experienced being won by teams from a lower class……ever?  

In 5A, it’s generally an expectation 70% of the time.

Edit..just a quick and irrelevant afterthought.  As far as I’m concerned, I think that if you just earn a single point after you are bumped up a class that should be enough to stay up.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Lysander

[oldtimeqb]

43 minutes ago, Boilernation said:

You’re naming programs that are light years better than their competition when they’ve competing lower than 5A. Chatard, Cathedral, East Central and Roncalli are all programs far and away on a higher playing level than 4A and below programs. Throw in New Pal (Whose closest game was Valpo) and Columbus East teams who were all arguably the best ever in school history (among to 5-10 in state history for New Pal) sounds to me like you’ve sold the argument that 4A and one team in 3A can be very strong at the top. That doesn’t necessarily mean the classes as a whole were stronger than 5A. 

But based on enrollment they are 4A.  And would be a state contender in 5A.

The main 5A team down south is Castle.  The largest school in the SIAC by far has been to Semi-State 3 times since 2015, and another 2 times have they lost in Regional. Despite their 5A postseason success, they have never won more than 8 games. 

Regular seasons of 5-4 vs the SIAC 2A-4A schools (plus 5A Ev North) but then win another 3 tournament games in 5A to get to 8 wins. In 2021 5A South, the semi-state contender was New Albany. Who lost by 40 to 3A Gibson Southern earlier that year.  That history doesn't indicate a depth of quality in 5A South to me. 

In which class would it be easiest to win a state title?  My answer is 5A. And as @Lysander pointed out, it's been done by a smaller 4A school more often than not. 

[BTF]

1 hour ago, Lysander said:

In the 10 years this new 5A has existed it has been won 7 times by 4A interlopers.  In fact, the year Westfield won they likely were a mid-size 6A school by then.  Only Snider and Valpo have won as actual 5A schools by enrollment.

I don't think this speaks for an entire class. Six of those seven were won by either Cathedral or New Pal. Most on here will agree that Cathedral isn't really a 4A school. They have advantages that place them as a true 6A program. New Pal is an anomaly. They have a very good coach with a philosophy that allows his teams to compete with programs twice their size. He plays his best athletes on both sides of the ball. Kudos to him, that approach seems to work. New Pal has bullied 6A programs in the same manor they've bullied 5A. Since their loss to Snider in 2015, they've beaten Westfield, Cathedral, and Center Grove twice. 

[Rodney]

9 hours ago, BTF said:

Thanks for the response. I'm wondering why the "5A is weak" threads started when Cathedral left 5A. It wasn't weak when they were there? You just acknowledged that 5A was a gift to Cathedral, to which I would agree. But what about the other posters? Why is 5A all of a sudden weak? Westfield and Zionsville bumped up, I get that. Merrillville and Valpo bumped down. Snider and Cathedral will bounce back and forth. It's kind of a wash if you ask me. But no one made that claim when Cathedral was stockpiling their trophy case. One thing is for certain. Valpo earned their title last year.

Why did the new 5A merit a 32 team class? That's simple. The largest school sat at 5000, while the smallest sat at 1500. That and the fact that the three largest schools shared almost all of the titles (enter Center Grove). Large enrollment is kind of a big deal when it comes to winning championships. 

I would agree that the 32 team classes should be 6A and 1A. That would put Snider, Valpo, Merrillville, East Central, Reitz, Roncalli, and New Pal in the same class. 

The three team sectional was a result of Dwenger getting an exception (something I know nothing about) during a year there's not suppose to be any movement. 

I only wrote that 5a is weak last year, because it was a joke. 

been so uninspired from last year that I've hardly followed it this year, only thing I know is snider is good and no1 else is.

[Lysander]

4 hours ago, BTF said:

I don't think this speaks for an entire class. Six of those seven were won by either Cathedral or New Pal. Most on here will agree that Cathedral isn't really a 4A school. They have advantages that place them as a true 6A program. New Pal is an anomaly. They have a very good coach with a philosophy that allows his teams to compete with programs twice their size. He plays his best athletes on both sides of the ball. Kudos to him, that approach seems to work. New Pal has bullied 6A programs in the same manor they've bullied 5A. Since their loss to Snider in 2015, they've beaten Westfield, Cathedral, and Center Grove twice. 

Just how can it not speak for an entire class?  If Cathedral had not been bumped then it would have been either Columbus East or New Pal during that time that would have stepped into their place.  

In the South, I think @oldtimeqb has addressed the weakness of the class.  It was only in 2019 that the same Bloomington South team that had lost 42-7 against 3A Chatard in the regular season was playing against New Pal in Semistate and lost  45-0.  New Pal went on to win 5A.  Just how in the world is a 5A team who had been crushed by a 3A team somehow playing in a 5A Semistate?  

It’s embarrassing to every other class to hear these excuses and lamentations as regards just how 5A can’t win its own class 7 out of 10 years.

Let’s be clear on this….just last year both 4A East Central and 4A Roncalli would have rolled through 5A if they had played in it.  Frankly, I think an historically relatively modest 3A Chatard team might have won 5A as well despite not measuring up to either East Central or Roncalli.  This year, 4A East Central crushes 5A.

This just simply doesn’t happen in ANY other classes….excepting 5A.  Where it generally happens roughly 3 out of 4 years.

Let’s add another 32 teams.  Somewhere in there we will find 3 or 4 quality football teams that are currently sorely lacking in 5A.

[BTF]

1 hour ago, Lysander said:

This year, 4A East Central crushes 5A.

Doubtful.

1 hour ago, Lysander said:

last year both 4A East Central and 4A Roncalli would have rolled through 5A if they had played in it. 

Speculation.

[First_Backer_Inside]

8 hours ago, Lysander said:

Why does only 5A lack those teams?  Almost every other class has them.  

 

I can give an answer, but some people aren't gonna like it.

How many private schools are there in 5A consistently? How many are there throughout 1A, 2A, 3A, and 4A?

Don't get mad at me, just somethin my mama said!

[BTF]

6 minutes ago, First_Backer_Inside said:

I can give an answer, but some people aren't gonna like it.

How many private schools are there in 5A consistently? How many are there throughout 1A, 2A, 3A, and 4A?

Don't get mad at me, just somethin my mama said!

Cathedral and Dwenger drift in and out of 5A. Snider, whom the forum seems to respect as the only legitimate 5A program, hangs around this class until they are bumped to 6A. But I'd argue that Valparaiso and Merrillville are legitimate programs that could compete with half of 6A and would be favored against 95% of 4A. Mishawaka is stout as well. I've got Mishawaka handling 90% of 4A. It does get a little sketch after that, I'll have to admit. But I think the three forementioned teams deserve a little more credit than they are getting. Harrison also deserves some respect. They also would take out 90% of 4A. 

I can't speak for the South, so I'm not going to give a pretend assessment of that region. Someone else will have to stand in for Bloomington North/South, Decatur Central, Whiteland, Plainfield, and Floyd Central. 

Let's not involve 3A in this debate. It doesn't hold any water at all with the exception of one team. And if one more person makes a claim that Indy Lutheran could win 5A I may have to check out of this forum for good as I just can't trust the credibility of the discussions anymore. 

[foxbat]

23 minutes ago, First_Backer_Inside said:

I can give an answer, but some people aren't gonna like it.

How many private schools are there in 5A consistently? How many are there throughout 1A, 2A, 3A, and 4A?

Don't get mad at me, just somethin my mama said!

Can you clarify?  Are you saying that p/p schools make the teams in those classes stronger or that p/p are strong in those classes ... and ultimately beyond their class ... so the class looks strong, but it's really just a p/p program giving the illusion of a strong class?

One implies that p/p helps to sharpen the sword and the other implies that p/p is the sword.  I tend to think of it as the former.

[First_Backer_Inside]

1 minute ago, foxbat said:

Can you clarify?  Are you saying that p/p schools make the teams in those classes stronger or that p/p are strong in those classes ... and ultimately beyond their class ... so the class looks strong, but it's really just a p/p program giving the illusion of a strong class?

One implies that p/p helps to sharpen the sword and the other implies that p/p is the sword.  I tend to think of it as the former.

In a way both. I'll start with 1A and say LCC and Lutheran are very strong in 1A consistently. If you move both teams up to 2A, I think they make the class stronger. Same can be said about Andrean and Luers for 2A. I think both are strong in the class, but then when they move up they make 3A stronger, not necessarily strong in 3A. In 3A you have Chatard and Memorial(although Memorial is already in 4A), when in 3A very strong, in 4A make the class stronger. The problem in 4A is everything gets log jammed with the privates because they are all in the same sectional so they just beat each other and nobody moves up to 5A to make the class as a whole stronger.

So i guess in some cases p/p is the sword, but with success factor eventually find their place to sharpen the sword. You aren't getting that sword sharpening in 5A because Cathedral just ran through it in 2 years and went to 6A and none of the 4A's can make it there.

[RLS1]

15 hours ago, BTF said:

Thanks for the response. I'm wondering why the "5A is weak" threads started when Cathedral left 5A. It wasn't weak when they were there? You just acknowledged that 5A was a gift to Cathedral, to which I would agree. But what about the other posters? Why is 5A all of a sudden weak? Westfield and Zionsville bumped up, I get that. Merrillville and Valpo bumped down. Snider and Cathedral will bounce back and forth. It's kind of a wash if you ask me. But no one made that claim when Cathedral was stockpiling their trophy case. One thing is for certain. Valpo earned their title last year.

Why did the new 5A merit a 32 team class? That's simple. The largest school sat at 5000, while the smallest sat at 1500. That and the fact that the three largest schools shared almost all of the titles (enter Center Grove). Large enrollment is kind of a big deal when it comes to winning championships. 

I would agree that the 32 team classes should be 6A and 1A. That would put Snider, Valpo, Merrillville, East Central, Reitz, Roncalli, and New Pal in the same class. 

The three team sectional was a result of Dwenger getting an exception (something I know nothing about) during a year there's not suppose to be any movement. 

Cathedral is 4A by enrollment.I think you could look at other schools stockpiling their trophy case.At least Cathedral has won titles at a higher class level.

[BTF]

7 minutes ago, RLS1 said:

Cathedral is 4A by enrollment.I think you could look at other schools stockpiling their trophy case.At least Cathedral has won titles at a higher class level.

Much respect for the Irish. Easily one of the top programs in the state regardless of what class they are playing in. I just find it ironic that no claims of 5A being weak were made when Cathedral was there. One team doesn't make an entire class strong or weak. I just don't see a huge difference in a class that lost Cathedral, Westfield, and Zionsville, but gained Snider, Valpo, and Merrillville. A difference? Sure. A significant one? Not really. 

[Komets2727]

1 hour ago, BTF said:

Cathedral and Dwenger drift in and out of 5A. Snider, whom the forum seems to respect as the only legitimate 5A program, hangs around this class until they are bumped to 6A. But I'd argue that Valparaiso and Merrillville are legitimate programs that could compete with half of 6A and would be favored against 95% of 4A. Mishawaka is stout as well. I've got Mishawaka handling 90% of 4A. It does get a little sketch after that, I'll have to admit. But I think the three forementioned teams deserve a little more credit than they are getting. Harrison also deserves some respect. They also would take out 90% of 4A. 

I can't speak for the South, so I'm not going to give a pretend assessment of that region. Someone else will have to stand in for Bloomington North/South, Decatur Central, Whiteland, Plainfield, and Floyd Central. 

Let's not involve 3A in this debate. It doesn't hold any water at all with the exception of one team. And if one more person makes a claim that Indy Lutheran could win 5A I may have to check out of this forum for good as I just can't trust the credibility of the discussions anymore. 

Very well said!!! Kind of ridiculous some of the pointless arguments being made by some here. I would put all of 5A against all of 4A and 3A and would like my chances. Additionally, the top of 5A is better than 3A or 4A year in year out

Edited October 10, 2023 by Komets2727

[scarab527]

Think there’s been good points made on both sides here. Some thoughts:

- Only Chatard in 3A could be a consistent contender in 5A. This does not make 3A as a whole better than 5A. 5A as a whole is much better than 3A and I would argue that this year and last year 3A was actually very weak outside of Chatard. 
 

- East Central would win 5A this year. No other 4A team would as I believe the class is actually pretty weak outside of EC. Last year you had 3 teams (EC, New Pal, Roncalli) that could’ve won 5A. However I don’t think you can say however that since the inception of the sixth class 4A has been better than 5A overall. Most years 5A I would say was better. If you look at the history, the two teams that have played for 5A state have been better than the two teams that have played for 4A state nearly every single year. 
 

- Cathedral/New Pal dominance in 5A is hard to look at as a knock on 5A when those teams were some of the very best in the entire state those years. 
 

- There is a significant jump in competition from 5A to 6A that is the largest between any two classes. 5A is a lot closer to 4A than 6A. This is why you’ve seen 4A teams bump up and still do well and mediocre 6A bump down and make long runs. 

[Komets2727]

53 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

Think there’s been good points made on both sides here. Some thoughts:

- Only Chatard in 3A could be a consistent contender in 5A. This does not make 3A as a whole better than 5A. 5A as a whole is much better than 3A and I would argue that this year and last year 3A was actually very weak outside of Chatard. 
 

- East Central would win 5A this year. No other 4A team would as I believe the class is actually pretty weak outside of EC. Last year you had 3 teams (EC, New Pal, Roncalli) that could’ve won 5A. However I don’t think you can say however that since the inception of the sixth class 4A has been better than 5A overall. Most years 5A I would say was better. If you look at the history, the two teams that have played for 5A state have been better than the two teams that have played for 4A state nearly every single year. 
 

- Cathedral/New Pal dominance in 5A is hard to look at as a knock on 5A when those teams were some of the very best in the entire state those years. 
 

- There is a significant jump in competition from 5A to 6A that is the largest between any two classes. 5A is a lot closer to 4A than 6A. This is why you’ve seen 4A teams bump up and still do well and mediocre 6A bump down and make long runs. 

Agree with most of what you said, I would say EC is not head and shoulders better than Snider this year,  regardless of the hype. Same with last year. EC in 5A would represent the South in 5A both years, but they are not hands down better than the teams they would play from the North

[Rodney]

2 hours ago, Komets2727 said:

Very well said!!! Kind of ridiculous some of the pointless arguments being made by some here. I would put all of 5A against all of 4A and 3A and would like my chances. Additionally, the top of 5A is better than 3A or 4A year in year out

Most years the top of 5a is 4a lmao

 

Oh also 5 4a teams were capable of winning 5a last year

And three of them would have been heavy favorites

Edited October 10, 2023 by Rodney

[BTF]

38 minutes ago, Rodney said:

Most years the top of 5a is 4a lmao

 

Oh also 5 4a teams were capable of winning 5a last year

And three of them would have been heavy favorites

I don't agree with that, not even a little bit. Snider's season ended last year in a brutal snow storm, they never got their chance to showcase who they were at the state level. 

I would also argue that EC wouldn't be a lock to win 5A this year. I'm not sure I'd bet against them, but I know that if they hit Snider, Snider would hit back. Everyone thought New Pal was untouchable in 2015, then they quickly found themselves down 42-14 at state. 

[scarab527]

37 minutes ago, BTF said:

I don't agree with that, not even a little bit. Snider's season ended last year in a brutal snow storm, they never got their chance to showcase who they were at the state level. 

I would also argue that EC wouldn't be a lock to win 5A this year. I'm not sure I'd bet against them, but I know that if they hit Snider, Snider would hit back. Everyone thought New Pal was untouchable in 2015, then they quickly found themselves down 42-14 at state. 

EC has already convincingly beaten a team in Moeller that is substantially better than any team in 5A (who CalPreps puts at a 92% chance of beating Snider, fwiw). 

Only thing I'm going to say about the snowstorm comment is that Valpo played in the same weather. If Snider was that much better the weather should not have been a factor. Just sounds like sour grapes. 

[BTF]

7 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

EC has already convincingly beaten a team in Moeller that is substantially better than any team in 5A (who CalPreps puts at a 92% chance of beating Snider, fwiw). 

Only thing I'm going to say about the snowstorm comment is that Valpo played in the same weather. If Snider was that much better the weather should not have been a factor. Just sounds like sour grapes. 

So weather is the great equalizer only sometimes. You're right, blowing snow has no affect on a team that throws the football. 

I put as much stock into a warm bucket of hamster vomit as I do CalPreps. That being said, I wouldn't bet against EC. I'm just saying it wouldn't be the blowout everyone claims it would be. I would have EC as a 58% favorite. Some posters just talk out their ass, someone needs to level the playing field. 

Self imposed warning point: 1

[IHSAA Champions Network]

16 hours ago, Impartial_Observer said:

All of this info is in the fall bulletin. Sectional after all expenses are paid, schools divide evenly among themselves. Regional and beyond all bills are paid and the IHSAA gets the rest. 
Keep in mind, there are some expenses involved. We’ve work several tournament games with checks exceeding $100. That’s $500 just for officials. Don’t forget the ticket people, chain crew, press box personnel, police/security…….. Home team gets concessions  

I have no idea what the media deal is. Assuming IHSAA keeps all that  

 

rights fees are kept by the IHSAA.  

[Komets2727]

1 hour ago, Rodney said:

Most years the top of 5a is 4a lmao

 

Oh also 5 4a teams were capable of winning 5a last year

And three of them would have been heavy favorites

Fiction