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Forget Seeding ... how about NEUTRAL SITE Regional and Semi-States please!


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On 10/15/2020 at 6:06 PM, oldunclemark said:

Folks walk to the football game at North Newton, Ball.  Havent been there for many years but I've been there and they do./

You may know it all about everything else, but the only people walking to North Newton or Tri County are walking from their cars and trucks.  There isn't a house within walking distance.  There is NO walkup crowd at these two schools, so how many others are in the same situation?  How many smaller schools have no bleachers on the visitors side?  

How many years ago was it that this person from the IHSAA told you this?  Is this the same person who said they would NEVER mess with the basketball tourney?

Again, you have your opinion and I'll have mine.

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4 hours ago, Ballhawk said:

You may know it all about everything else, but the only people walking to North Newton or Tri County are walking from their cars and trucks.  There isn't a house within walking distance.  There is NO walkup crowd at these two schools, so how many others are in the same situation?  How many smaller schools have no bleachers on the visitors side?  

How many years ago was it that this person from the IHSAA told you this?  Is this the same person who said they would NEVER mess with the basketball tourney?

Again, you have your opinion and I'll have mine.

I would think most, but not all, schools "out in the country" will not have walk-ups.  But city schools, depending on location, could have a fair amount.  As examples, in the Fort Wayne area South Side, North Side & Snider could have a pretty decent number of people walking to a game.  There are other Fort Wayne schools where it may not be as doable considering high traffic roads to cross, or just long distances for schools in the suburbs, think Northrop, Homestead, Carroll.  County schools like Heritage, Woodlan, Southern Wells & Eastbrook will not have them, but an Adams Central or Bellmont might have a few.

Bottom line, if I were one of the IHSAA people in a position to make a call on this, I would not factor walk-ups into it.  I can't see the number being large enough to make a big impact on travel if a given school did well enought to make it to regionals or semi's.  I would venture a guess that a good portion of walk-ups don't drive to the game because they don't have to, not because they can't.  I'm sure there are some in the "can't" category, but again not enough to sway policy if something like this ever made it to the table.  Just based on the few observations I have made over the years.

Edited by Bonecrusher
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2 hours ago, Bonecrusher said:

I would think most, but not all, schools "out in the country" will not have walk-ups.  But city schools, depending on location, could have a fair amount.  As examples, in the Fort Wayne area South Side, North Side & Snider could have a pretty decent number of people walking to a game.  There are other Fort Wayne schools where it may not be as doable considering high traffic roads to cross, or just long distances for schools in the suburbs, think Northrop, Homestead, Carroll.  County schools like Heritage, Woodlan, Southern Wells & Eastbrook will not have them, but an Adams Central or Bellmont might have a few.

Bottom line, if I were one of the IHSAA people in a position to make a call on this, I would not factor walk-ups into it.  I can't see the number being large enough to make a big impact on travel if a given school did well enought to make it to regionals or semi's.  I would venture a guess that a good portion of walk-ups don't drive to the game because they don't have to, not because they can't.  I'm sure there are some in the "can't" category, but again not enough to sway policy if something like this ever made it to the table.  Just based on the few observations I have made over the years.

Good luck walking to a F. W. South Side or Luers game.

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11 hours ago, Ballhawk said:

You may know it all about everything else, but the only people walking to North Newton or Tri County are walking from their cars and trucks.  There isn't a house within walking distance.  There is NO walkup crowd at these two schools, so how many others are in the same situation?  How many smaller schools have no bleachers on the visitors side?  

How many years ago was it that this person from the IHSAA told you this?  Is this the same person who said they would NEVER mess with the basketball tourney?

 

 For the record, I've never been to Tri County except to drive by on the highway.  Been to North Newton for multiple sports. 

In every school in Northwest Indiana, kids walk to the football game.  

Kids walk from places that you and I wouldnt walk.  For the record, South Central and LaCrosse have no basketball bleachers on the far side. Has nothing to do with who goes to the games. 

 

Neutral sites regional and semistate football games would lose the IHSAA money and, would lose the 'feel' of having a home team. That's not debatable. 

More people attend home games than road games.  Always have. Always will.

I've been to at least 10 semistate games (I assume you have been to some, too) at several different schools and you have to admit it is the ultimate in drama.

Senior boys who have played on this field all their lives play one final game there to reach the state finals,. 

I was told the IHSAA likes that atmosphere. You can call me or them liars but that's what I was told.  I dont like the all-inclusive state playoff. They do.

 

the larger point you are missing is: It is the ultimate of hubris for you to assume that your opinion (or me to assume that mine) has never been considered.

The subject of neutral site playoff games has has come up. I've asked. I was answered.   A message board argument is unlikely to break new ground. 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 10/15/2020 at 8:17 AM, oldtimeqb said:

Illinois pretty much plays all playoff games on Saturdays, except for a few Friday night games around Chicago in the first and second rounds. 

My family members there talk about the special atmosphere of earning the right to play on Saturdays because that meant you made the playoffs. (Not to open that can of worms.)

But yes, semi state definitely could be Saturday doubleheaders (3pm and 7pm) at neutral sites. 

One reason most coaches don’t like Saturday games is that they think their opponents who play on Friday get an extra day of game prep on them. Everybody playing Saturday changes that equation.

I grew up in Illinois and we loved watching big games Saturday in the sun. It felt like the NFL.  (When I was young, al NFL playoff games were played in the afternoon) 

They have a lot of neutral site regular season and playoff games inn Illinois because many Chicago schools dont have exclusive home fields. Mine did not. 

No double-headers for Indiana, though. To bring 4 schools to a neutral site in November weather might be a mess. And few teams would want to play or host Saturday night.

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On 10/15/2020 at 6:06 PM, oldunclemark said:

Folks walk to the football game at North Newton, Ball.  Havent been there for many years but I've been there and they do./

. I've never been to a school where, kids didnt walk to the game. Neutral site games take that away.

When I was in high school in Illinois, we didnt have a home field and I walked to all our 'home' games. But the field was only 14-15 blocks away.

I dont understand the reason to try neutral site games in Indiana but you do so you may be missing my larger point. 

 

 

When I was young, I thought I knew everything so I'd go downstate (for my newspaper) with teams and I'd give them a piece of my mind. I'd ask someone from the IHSAA about seeding. Or Saturday football. Or a 10-game regular season. Or the all-inclusive state tourney. Or the horrible overtime format.  Or neutral site games. I would tell them what I think. 

Then the very pleasant HSAA fellow would look at me, ask me where I was from and smile politely. And then he would sound like 'The Rock' on the old wrestling shows when he would say very kindly,   "It doesn't matter what you think!!!!"

The answer was: We want games played on home sites. We want that home sellout. That atmosphere. 

 

 

Then the nice IHSAA fellow would remind me that I got in for free and that if I ever wanted to ever get in for free again, that I should sit down and shut up. 

 

 

Where do they walk from to get to North Newton High School? it's 5 miles to Enos, doesn't appear to be any homes there, to the south southwest and about 4 miles up to the Prairie Chicken Refuge. There are two homes across the road from the school.

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9 hours ago, oldunclemark said:

 Neutral sites regional and semistate football games would lose the IHSAA money and, would lose the 'feel' of having a home team. That's not debatable. 

Yes, it is. Doesn’t matter how many times you say it.

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4 hours ago, Bobref said:

Yes, it is. Doesn’t matter how many times you say it.

Bob, we can't debate or refute anything oldunclemark says because he knows all of this for a fact.  I guess in all of my travels for 1A and 2A football over 30+ years, I haven't seen the same schools that he has, or had the same experiences.

I guess I'll leave this debate up to you because I don't care to debate someone as closed-minded as OUM.

Cheers!

7 hours ago, Maynard111 said:

Where do they walk from to get to North Newton High School? it's 5 miles to Enos, doesn't appear to be any homes there, to the south southwest and about 4 miles up to the Prairie Chicken Refuge. There are two homes across the road from the school.

How many walk-ups does Tri Central get?  Or Carroll, Clinton Prairie, etc...?  I guess them city slickers don't realize how far out in the boonies some of these places are.

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18 minutes ago, Ballhawk said:

How many walk-ups does Tri Central get?  Or Carroll, Clinton Prairie, etc...?  I guess them city slickers don't realize how far out in the boonies some of these places are.

There is a string of about 6-10 houses just south of Clinton Prairie high school on CR 450 W.  I guess they could walk to the football field.

Edited by Muda69
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14 hours ago, Ballhawk said:

Bob, we can't debate or refute anything oldunclemark says because he knows all of this for a fact.  I guess in all of my travels for 1A and 2A football over 30+ years, I haven't seen the same schools that he has, or had the same experiences.

I guess I'll leave this debate up to you because I don't care to debate someone as closed-minded as OUM.

Cheers!

How many walk-ups does Tri Central get?  Or Carroll, Clinton Prairie, etc...?  I guess them city slickers don't realize how far out in the boonies some of these places are.

Bob. It does not matter what I know.  I agree 100%.   You and I have clearly lived in different places and seen different things.  You say you know of a school where no one has ever walked to a football game.  I have never been to that school.  To me, the beauty of fall football is to see the folks walking through town in places like Highland or North Judson or Griffith or Whiting or LaPorte or Crown Point to go to the games.  You should see it.  But walkups is not the ONLY reason I was told that the IHSAA likes neutral site playoff games. Do you know of a school where more fans/parents go to road football games than to home games. Of course we dont. That's why neutral site playoff games as a rule, probably isnt going to happen.

 

 As I said, when I was a young 'city slicker'  I took my 'closed mind' downstate many times for state finals in lots of sports and I would ask questions of IHSAA people about the all-inclusive tournament, Saturday and Thursday football, the overtime format, (the even-worse overtime soccer format),  teams being forced to play 2 soccer games in one day in the state tournament, teams being forced to play two basketball playoff games in the same day, etc.   I had all the answers.  And I wasn't shy about asking. You know how us folks from the big city are, right? 

 

 The one thing I've changed my mind on in my time following other people's children playing sports is:

I used to think that the IHSAA was a lot of 'closed-minded' people who spent most of their entire lives in education and athletics and had acquired the 'arrogance of education', an attitude that they knew what they were doing. They were so smart that they were not inclined to listen to guy who wasn't a coach or an educator whose walked up to them at some state finals with a pen and clipboard and camera and whose job it was to cover my local high schools most of my entire life.

As the years have gone by, I've have come to appreciate that the IHSAA is a lot of 'closed minded' but thoughtful people who have spent their entire lives in education and athletics, acquiring the 'arrogance of education, an attitude that they know what they are doing.  They cant listen to what 10 people tell them to do. They are probably smart not to listen to a guy who wasnt a coach or an educator who walked up to them at a state finals with a pen and a clipboard and a camera and whose job it was to cover my local high schools most of my entire life.

 

The moral: The IHSAA has almost certainly considered everything you and I have discussed. Just ask 'em.

 

     

 

  

 

 

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15 hours ago, Ballhawk said:

Bob, we can't debate or refute anything oldunclemark says because he knows all of this for a fact.  I guess in all of my travels for 1A and 2A football over 30+ years, I haven't seen the same schools that he has, or had the same experiences.

I guess I'll leave this debate up to you because I don't care to debate someone as closed-minded as OUM.

Cheers!

How many walk-ups does Tri Central get?  Or Carroll, Clinton Prairie, etc...?  I guess them city slickers don't realize how far out in the boonies some of these places are.

Sorry, Ball-Man.  The above message was meant for you. (maybe you and Bob) For the record, if we're talking about how 'old school' we all are...

I have worn out three cars 'wandering Indiana'  for high school sports since the mid 1980s.  Ever see the opening sequence in 'Hoosiers'.

I could swear those old roads Gene Hackman was driving down. I swear I've driven them. I'd bet you have, too,.  

But gentlemen, have you ever gone to the state finals and cornered some official from the IHSAA and offered them your deeply held convictions about how state prep sports should be run? 

You'll get an answer.

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3 hours ago, Coach Nowlin said:

You know we produce some fine fine folks up our way!!! 

If we get a "normal" summer next year it's on our list of places to visit again.  The youngest keeps requesting another Busy Bee trip.  It just has to be a planned trip - we can't just stop by on our way to somewhere. LOL

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 10/19/2020 at 4:14 PM, jakone said:

Good luck walking to a F. W. South Side or Luers game.

You make a good point.  I'm not sure I would want to walk home after games there for reasons we won't delve into.  In my post I was looking more at how feasible it would be logistics-wise and if you're in good enough health for a short hike to the game.  Wasn't taking into consideration "other" variables but those would def come into play.

IME with some of the Ft. Wayne and a most NE IN county schools, the overwhelming majority of people do drive.

Edited by Bonecrusher
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  • 2 weeks later...

Semi-states would be relatively easy to do this year, especially the northern  semi-states.  South is a little tougher but there are some decent options.  I like the 2 games at 1 site format that is used for basketball.  Play on Saturday afternoon at 1:30 and 5:30.  Here’s what I would like to see if this was possible:

@Warsaw

Hobart/Marion

Pioneer/Luers

 

@Kokomo

Chatard/Marian

Central Catholic/South Adams

 

@Lafayette Jeff

Merrillville/Westfield

Valparaiso/Zionsville

 

@Franklin Central

Center Grove/Ben Davis

Roncalli/Mooresville

 

@Martinsville

Danville/Southridge

Covenant Christian/West Washington

 

@Bloomington South

Cathedral/Castle

Western Boone/Mater Dei

 

Southport or Decatur Central could be options to host the 4A and 6A south semi-state.  CG and BD have the best facilities to host those two games, but I went with a site that would be neutral with plenty of seating on both sides of the field.

Edited by HoopsCoach
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8 hours ago, Gridiron_Junkie said:

How about no seeding, no nuteral playing sights, no sucess factor and no mercy rule. Football like it used to be.

Sure. And while we’re at it, rip out all the artificial turf, get rid of the lights because football was meant to be played in daylight, and reinstate leather helmets.

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On 11/17/2020 at 6:09 AM, Bobref said:

Sure. And while we’re at it, rip out all the artificial turf, get rid of the lights because football was meant to be played in daylight, and reinstate leather helmets.

All coaches should dress like Lou Parnell (BD's coach from 1949-1956) now!

Lou Parnell.png

Edited by BDGiant93
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