Elkhart High School - Last Hope for the Great White North?

[foxbat]

8 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Okay...this has been all I could think about when I saw the title of this thread.

 

 

The only thing missing is Geddy Lee.

 

[PDB26]

@DT

3 hours ago, DT said:

Penn - The rise of Elkhart and Marian will continue to put pressure on Penn.  I believe they need a program reboot.  A whole new philosophy.  They might even consider going independent.

Not to diminish Marian's successes and their win over Penn this year, but I think joining the DAC might be the best case scenario for Penn, Elkhart and the DAC member schools. Penn blundered, even if it wasn't apparent then, when they chose to stay in the NIC in '02. The NIC is an objectively bad fit on size alone, if not an outright bad football conference, for schools like Penn and Elkhart. Penn is able to get some better varsity games now that they player fewer conference games, but the JVs and freshmen typically do not play games against those opponents. They usually get to see an NIC team twice. This year they did see Elkhart twice, and they had been playing Elkhart Central twice a year for several years.

From experience, Penn's freshman, JV, and for years many of the varsity contests have almost always been unable to deliver a sufficient number of quality, live reps for players for development. Most other NIC schools typically field significantly smaller, less talented freshman and JV squads because of their varsity needs, school size or program health or some combination of these factors. 

I looked at scores from Elkhart's freshman and JV games this year and they looked an awful lot like Penn freshman and JV games from over the years. I have to assume that the level of competition in the MIC and HCC is typically flatter across the board, freshman and JV rosters are at least more comparable in size, and, if nothing else, the success of programs within those conferences has to better illuminate areas in which you need to evolve or improve. 

Maybe the freshman and JV teams in the DAC would end up being similar, but I would have to see it to believe it. I don't think this is a grass is greener situation. I think joining the DAC is really the only way those two programs can get the push they need to develop players and evolve to compete with the Indy schools. Or else Penn and Elkhart agree to play all of their freshman and JV games against each other. Might be a good way to manufacture a Mishawaka type level of rivalry if nothing else.

I just don't see them going independent.

NIC North: Penn, 3338; Elkhart, 3185; SB Adams, 1913; New Prairie, 961; St. Joe, 857; Marian, 645

DAC: Lake Central, 3316; Crown Point, 2855; Portage, 2436; Merillville, 2187; Chesterton, 2063; Valparaiso, 2054; LaPorte, 1819; Michigan City, 1611

[Bobref]

2 hours ago, Muda69 said:

GRIT is Rural American Know-How, silly.  https://www.grit.com/

As a kid I tried to sell subscriptions to the GRIT magazine door-to-door.  Didn't work out so well..............  

 

Wasn't that ultimately exposed as some sort or pyramid scheme?

[Guest DT]

35 minutes ago, Bobref said:

Wasn't that ultimately exposed as some sort or pyramid scheme?

GRIT is Portage and Hobart playing in a rainy , muddy Brickie Bowl on a cold October night and Portage has the ball at the Brickie 2 yard line with 4th and goal and 25 seconds left in the game.

Bobref - bet you can put yourself exactly in the moment.

 

[Bobref]

19 minutes ago, DT said:

GRIT is Portage and Hobart playing in a rainy , muddy Brickie Bowl on a cold October night and Portage has the ball at the Brickie 2 yard line with 4th and goal and 25 seconds left in the game.

Bobref - bet you can put yourself exactly in the moment.

 

Have I mentioned how much I hate the Brickie Bowl?

[Guest DT]

3 minutes ago, Bobref said:

Have I mentioned how much I hate the Brickie Bowl?

LOL  Figured you loved the place

[Bobref]

32 minutes ago, DT said:

LOL  Figured you loved the place

Was there many times ... and never once felt I had a good game.

[Guest DT]

1 minute ago, Bobref said:

Was there many times ... and never once felt I had a good game.

What was your favorite NWI school to work at?

[Bobref]

2 minutes ago, DT said:

What was your favorite NWI school to work at?

Hard question to answer, as different places have different attributes. In terms of how they take care of the officials, probably Valpo or Crown Point. For “atmosphere,” I’ll take The Inferno during the Kennedy years, in a dead heat with the Boneyard in Russ’ heyday. As a big game venue, hard to beat a packed Demaree. Nicest playing field is probably Ames in Michigan City.

[LaSalle Lions 1976]

19 minutes ago, Bobref said:

Hard question to answer, as different places have different attributes. In terms of how they take care of the officials, probably Valpo or Crown Point. For “atmosphere,” I’ll take The Inferno during the Kennedy years, in a dead heat with the Boneyard in Russ’ heyday. As a big game venue, hard to beat a packed Demaree. Nicest playing field is probably Ames in Michigan City.

I was teaching there when the new Ames was being built.  It started out as a grass field installed by the Sodfather.  The roots were over a foot long.  It was beautiful

[Muda69]

15 hours ago, Bobref said:

Wasn't that ultimately exposed as some sort or pyramid scheme?

Probably, but I was like 10 years old at the time and had never heard of a pyramid scheme.

[southend]

18 hours ago, Muda69 said:

GRIT is Rural American Know-How, silly.  https://www.grit.com/

As a kid I tried to sell subscriptions to the GRIT magazine door-to-door.  Didn't work out so well..............  

 

So grit IS different from toughness.  

[Crusty]

On 12/1/2020 at 9:47 AM, SBFootball1 said:

Who else could be the torch bearer and what are they missing?

Warsaw

Penn

Homestead

Merrilville

 

Mishawaka, as much tournament success or more than any of those teams the last 2-3 years.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Crusty

[Prospect]

11 hours ago, Crusty said:

Mishawaka, as much tournament success or more than any of those teams the last 2-3 years.

They're also not in 6A which is what this thread is about.

[Guest DT]

On 12/1/2020 at 2:36 PM, PDB26 said:

@DT

Not to diminish Marian's successes and their win over Penn this year, but I think joining the DAC might be the best case scenario for Penn, Elkhart and the DAC member schools. Penn blundered, even if it wasn't apparent then, when they chose to stay in the NIC in '02. The NIC is an objectively bad fit on size alone, if not an outright bad football conference, for schools like Penn and Elkhart. Penn is able to get some better varsity games now that they player fewer conference games, but the JVs and freshmen typically do not play games against those opponents. They usually get to see an NIC team twice. This year they did see Elkhart twice, and they had been playing Elkhart Central twice a year for several years.

From experience, Penn's freshman, JV, and for years many of the varsity contests have almost always been unable to deliver a sufficient number of quality, live reps for players for development. Most other NIC schools typically field significantly smaller, less talented freshman and JV squads because of their varsity needs, school size or program health or some combination of these factors. 

I looked at scores from Elkhart's freshman and JV games this year and they looked an awful lot like Penn freshman and JV games from over the years. I have to assume that the level of competition in the MIC and HCC is typically flatter across the board, freshman and JV rosters are at least more comparable in size, and, if nothing else, the success of programs within those conferences has to better illuminate areas in which you need to evolve or improve. 

Maybe the freshman and JV teams in the DAC would end up being similar, but I would have to see it to believe it. I don't think this is a grass is greener situation. I think joining the DAC is really the only way those two programs can get the push they need to develop players and evolve to compete with the Indy schools. Or else Penn and Elkhart agree to play all of their freshman and JV games against each other. Might be a good way to manufacture a Mishawaka type level of rivalry if nothing else.

I just don't see them going independent.

NIC North: Penn, 3338; Elkhart, 3185; SB Adams, 1913; New Prairie, 961; St. Joe, 857; Marian, 645

DAC: Lake Central, 3316; Crown Point, 2855; Portage, 2436; Merillville, 2187; Chesterton, 2063; Valparaiso, 2054; LaPorte, 1819; Michigan City, 1611

Weve discussed this many times over the years here on The GID.  It always comes down to time zone travel issues.  

I would certainly think that a football only partnership between the DAC and  Penn-EHS would make plenty of sense for both sides.  Surely schedule makers could come up with a model where DAC schools make one long trip east per year to alternately play Penn and Elkhart.  Michigan City, Laporte, Penn and Elkhart are almost a mini conference themselves.

I would have no problem seeing these ten schools come together in a full round robin format and eliminate any non con additional travel.  There are enough good matchups within the ten to eliminate the need for non con play.

As soon as this happens, you can probably expect Marian to bolt for the NLC.  

As a supporter of the Penn program, what is your sense regarding the level of support for a Penn football only move to The DAC?

Edited December 3, 2020 by DT

[gonzoron]

6 minutes ago, DT said:

where DAC schools make one long trip east

Long trip? 

[Guest DT]

4 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

Long trip? 

Apparently some folks feel that way.  The longest trip would be Lake Central to Elkhart, 80 miles.  

1 minute ago, DT said:

Apparently some folks feel that way.  The longest trip would be Lake Central to Elkhart, 80 miles.  

Heck, play that game on a Saturday   Might be a good draw at LCs beautiful football palace

Edited December 3, 2020 by DT

[SBFootball1]

On 12/1/2020 at 2:36 PM, PDB26 said:

 

NIC North: Penn, 3338; Elkhart, 3185; SB Adams, 1913; New Prairie, 961; St. Joe, 857; Marian, 645

DAC: Lake Central, 3316; Crown Point, 2855; Portage, 2436; Merillville, 2187; Chesterton, 2063; Valparaiso, 2054; LaPorte, 1819; Michigan City, 1611

WIthout destroying two conferences, could these two conferences do a split for football only? Bold teams one half, the rest in the other?

[gonzoron]

4 minutes ago, DT said:

Apparently some folks feel that way.  The longest trip would be Lake Central to Elkhart, 80 miles. 

Sounds like some folks are spoiled.

[scarab527]

25 minutes ago, DT said:

Weve discussed this many times over the years here on The GID.  It always comes down to time zone travel issues.  

I would certainly think that a football only partnership between the DAC and  Penn-EHS would make plenty of sense for both sides.  Surely schedule makers could come up with a model where DAC schools make one long trip east per year to alternately play Penn and Elkhart.  Michigan City, Laporte, Penn and Elkhart are almost a mini conference themselves.

I would have no problem seeing these ten schools come together in a full round robin format and eliminate any non con additional travel.  There are enough good matchups within the ten to eliminate the need for non con play.

As soon as this happens, you can probably expect Marian to bolt for the NLC.  

As a supporter of the Penn program, what is your sense regarding the level of support for a Penn football only move to The DAC?

The more I’ve thought about this, the more I feel like it should get done. Penn and Elkhart would benefit from playing larger schools throughout the regular season and the DAC would gain 2 very solid programs that would highly increase the level of football played in the conference. I was skeptical about the travel distance and time change before but I don’t think those factors should prevent this from happening, there’s too much to be gained. If the Northern schools want a chance of beating Indy in the playoffs, they’re going to have to up their level of regular season competition. This move would do that. I’d probably support an East/West Division concept, with CP, LC, MVille, Portage, and either Chesterton or Valpo in the West, and the rest of the teams in the East. Play every team in your division, 3 from the other division, and leave 2 slots for non-conference play (can’t get behind any closed conferences). 

[Guest DT]

7 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

The more I’ve thought about this, the more I feel like it should get done. Penn and Elkhart would benefit from playing larger schools throughout the regular season and the DAC would gain 2 very solid programs that would highly increase the level of football played in the conference. I was skeptical about the travel distance and time change before but I don’t think those factors should prevent this from happening, there’s too much to be gained. If the Northern schools want a chance of beating Indy in the playoffs, they’re going to have to up their level of regular season competition. This move would do that. I’d probably support an East/West Division concept, with CP, LC, MVille, Portage, and either Chesterton or Valpo in the West, and the rest of the teams in the East. Play every team in your division, 3 from the other division, and leave 2 slots for non-conference play (can’t get behind any closed conferences). 

I used to be against the full round robin, but am now for it in the post COVID world, if and when that happens.  We need to see more rivalries develop at the high school level, and you can only do that by playing against others schools every year.  

Weve been hearing a lot of complaining out of the SAC about the ful round robin and the lack of non con play.  Problem they have is too many bad teams in the bottom half of the conference.  Nobody is complaining about the full round robin in the SIAC because you have big games between competitive programs every week.  

[scarab527]

10 minutes ago, DT said:

Weve been hearing a lot of complaining out of the SAC about the ful round robin and the lack of non con play.  Problem they have is too many bad teams in the bottom half of the conference.  Nobody is complaining about the full round robin in the SIAC because you have big games between competitive programs every week.  

This was kinda my line of thinking with the split division approach. Clearly this new DAC would be deep, but there’d still be dogs like LC and Portage in it. Having some non-conference slots would allow the better teams to avoid the conference dogs to schedule some better games. 

[DACNUT]

Ask any longtime DAC folks, Penn has had a standing invitation to the conference for at least the last 20 plus years. The only hiccup has been Elkhart, but now that there is only one school, I think the DAC principals and AD's would probably be ok with adding those two. This would be a win for the DAC as both schools would be able to field and participate in all sports, like gymnastics. 

[temptation]

8 minutes ago, DACNUT said:

Ask any longtime DAC folks, Penn has had a standing invitation to the conference for at least the last 20 plus years. The only hiccup has been Elkhart, but now that there is only one school, I think the DAC principals and AD's would probably be ok with adding those two. This would be a win for the DAC as both schools would be able to field and participate in all sports, like gymnastics. 

That's one hell of a haul to Merrillville, Crown Point, and St. John.

[DACNUT]

2 hours ago, DT said:

Weve discussed this many times over the years here on The GID.  It always comes down to time zone travel issues.  

I would certainly think that a football only partnership between the DAC and  Penn-EHS would make plenty of sense for both sides.  Surely schedule makers could come up with a model where DAC schools make one long trip east per year to alternately play Penn and Elkhart.  Michigan City, Laporte, Penn and Elkhart are almost a mini conference themselves.

I would have no problem seeing these ten schools come together in a full round robin format and eliminate any non con additional travel.  There are enough good matchups within the ten to eliminate the need for non con play.

As soon as this happens, you can probably expect Marian to bolt for the NLC.  

As a supporter of the Penn program, what is your sense regarding the level of support for a Penn football only move to The DAC?

Move them in for everything, not just for football. These schools  play each other at a high level in many sports, mainly Penn, but I'm sure Elkhart soon, at the regional levels and it only makes sense to do more than football. 

As for East West, Michigan City and LaPorte were long time members of the NIC with Penn and Elkhart before the DAC was formed.