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Time for IHSAA to Implement The NSF : Non Success Factor - Its the right thing to do


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The conversation over in the County school thread has reopened the door to discussion concerning implementation of the Failure Factor.  For purposes of political correctness, lets call it the Non Success Factor.  NSF.  

For all the reasons that we can point out that schools like Center Grove, Cathedral, Carmel, New Pal, Jasper, Westfield, etc etc have continued and sustained success, we can also point to schools like Jay County, Rushville, Connersville, Madison, Frankfort, Owen Valley, etc etc who are on the other end of the spectrum and experience very little success on the high school football gridiron.

It basically all comes down to geography, which no school can impact or change, regardless of the amount it invests in its program.

While many schools enjoy great community and administrative support, are blessed with excellent facilities, have strong feeder programs, active alumni and high rates of participation, many are also on the exact opposite end of the rope using that same set of criteria.

If we are going to promote FW Dwenger from 4A to 5A because of its consistent excellence, why dont we demote Frankfort and Owen Valley from 4A to 3A due to their consistent failures?

Is anyone going to argue that Dwenger has much more to work with than Owen Valley?

Is it OVs fault that its rural location limits its potential to be all it can be on the football field?

The comment was made in the county thread that "county schools generally play 4A football at the 2A or 1A level.  With all the challenges many of these schools face, is it really fair to say that a wealthy suburban 4A is playing with the same deck that a blue collar county 4A is playing with?

I have contended all along that the IHSAA's top mandate is to work towards the maintenance of competitive balance.  The IHSAA did a great job of addressing the top end of the competitive balance spectrum.  Its now time to look at the bottom end and address the schools who are truly handicapped by their individual geography and make the necessary adjustments to give them a fighting chance for success.  

Failure to address this issue could result in contraction by those schools who feel like they are being bypassed and left behind 

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

You do know that Frankfort finished this past regular season with a winning record,  5-4?  The first one since 2009.  Of course they had play two 1A schools (and go 1-1 against them) to do it.

 

Yes

 

I am fully aware of the Hot Dogs "memorable" season.

Frankfort is 8-44 over the past 5 seasons, 3-40 if you take out the glorious 2020 campaign.  FF is ripe for demotion to 3A

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2 minutes ago, DT said:

Yes

 

I am fully aware of the Hot Dogs "memorable" season.

Frankfort is 8-44 over the past 5 seasons, 3-40 if you take out the glorious 2020 campaign.  FF is ripe for demotion to 3A

As one of the smallest school in 4A at the moment, I agree.  Maybe even down to 2A with their available talent pool.

 

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Not everything is fair in this world DT. It is what it is. I have always said that I do not like the success factor. I think that's punishing teams who have a great program or punishing kids who have to play up  a class just because teams that came before them won many games. I have always stated that the private schools should be the schools that should have to move up a class. People argue against that, but they get a lot more benefits with having to play in smaller classes with lots more football players to choose from. Not to mention kids who are paying to go to the school for football or basketball or etc. And then also, private schools help players out that they want to go to their school to play (recruiting). I am not against private schools I just am saying that they will always have an advantage when it comes to athletics because of the smaller schools that they play.

Again, things are not always fair and that is just the way it is. You cannot have a nonsuccess factor points system in place. That becomes a slippery slope of having specifics in place and how the IHSAA and schools approach seasons. Play in the class you are supposed to play in based off of enrollment and do the best you can. 

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19 minutes ago, Indiana Fan said:

Not everything is fair in this world DT. It is what it is. I have always said that I do not like the success factor. I think that's punishing teams who have a great program or punishing kids who have to play up  a class just because teams that came before them won many games. I have always stated that the private schools should be the schools that should have to move up a class. People argue against that, but they get a lot more benefits with having to play in smaller classes with lots more football players to choose from. Not to mention kids who are paying to go to the school for football or basketball or etc. And then also, private schools help players out that they want to go to their school to play (recruiting). I am not against private schools I just am saying that they will always have an advantage when it comes to athletics because of the smaller schools that they play.

Again, things are not always fair and that is just the way it is. You cannot have a nonsuccess factor points system in place. That becomes a slippery slope of having specifics in place and how the IHSAA and schools approach seasons. Play in the class you are supposed to play in based off of enrollment and do the best you can. 

Some good comments, some retread.  If you have evidence of any school and undue influence, please report it to the IHSAA.  The IHSAA is a group of member schools, not a group of public schools. 

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38 minutes ago, Indiana Fan said:

Not everything is fair in this world DT. It is what it is. I have always said that I do not like the success factor. I think that's punishing teams who have a great program or punishing kids who have to play up  a class just because teams that came before them won many games. I have always stated that the private schools should be the schools that should have to move up a class. People argue against that, but they get a lot more benefits with having to play in smaller classes with lots more football players to choose from. Not to mention kids who are paying to go to the school for football or basketball or etc. And then also, private schools help players out that they want to go to their school to play (recruiting). I am not against private schools I just am saying that they will always have an advantage when it comes to athletics because of the smaller schools that they play.

Again, things are not always fair and that is just the way it is. You cannot have a nonsuccess factor points system in place. That becomes a slippery slope of having specifics in place and how the IHSAA and schools approach seasons. Play in the class you are supposed to play in based off of enrollment and do the best you can. 

My thoughts exactly--no one gets all the cards.   Additionally, the IHSAA is not the Premier League in England where teams can often be relegate due to performance.  BTW, I'm not a fan of the success factor either as most teams end up back in their original and rightful class in a very short while.

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Any Non-success list would have to include Pike Central.   Has the IHSAA football tournament been around in its current format since 1985? 1986?  Pike Central has won one sectional game in that time span.  Not won the sectional. ONE GAME. So their postseason record is 1-35. 

If that doesn't define a team that can't be competitive as a 3A school, I don't know what does. 

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DT back when we put the SF together I brought up the concept of bumping teams down who had not won a playoff game in the four years span, down one level.  It garnered virtually zero support in the committee, and died on the spot.  

There is no appetite from schools to accept such a label, and I doubt the IHSAA has any interest in forcing it upon anyone.  

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1 hour ago, CoachGallogly said:

DT back when we put the SF together I brought up the concept of bumping teams down who had not won a playoff game in the four years span, down one level.  It garnered virtually zero support in the committee, and died on the spot.  

There is no appetite from schools to accept such a label, and I doubt the IHSAA has any interest in forcing it upon anyone.  

So personal pride and hubris outweigh prudence, common sense and good judgement?   

Sometimes you have to take decision making out of local hands and allow a central authority to do what it was created to do in the first place

Times have changed.  Football is not as important to Indiana high schools as it was 10 years ago.  I believe , especially in the pandemic environment, that many schools would opt down if given the opportunity.  That beats opting out and still gives kids a chance to participate with a higher probability of success

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2 hours ago, CoachGallogly said:

DT back when we put the SF together I brought up the concept of bumping teams down who had not won a playoff game in the four years span, down one level.  It garnered virtually zero support in the committee, and died on the spot.  

There is no appetite from schools to accept such a label, and I doubt the IHSAA has any interest in forcing it upon anyone.  

With that, there is a domino effect.  The lower class could become too big.

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2 hours ago, CoachGallogly said:

DT back when we put the SF together I brought up the concept of bumping teams down who had not won a playoff game in the four years span, down one level.  It garnered virtually zero support in the committee, and died on the spot.  

There is no appetite from schools to accept such a label, and I doubt the IHSAA has any interest in forcing it upon anyone.  

So the IHSAA exists to recognize "success" and basically ignore failure.  Got it.

 

1 minute ago, Dolts said:

Didn't some Parke County schools consolidate to be relevant in Athletics? 

Is that what the NSF would prevent?

Turkey Run and Rockville schools did recently consolidate, yes.  I'm not sure if athletic relevance was the primary reason behind such a move however.

 

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I'm not going to try and stir this up too much(just a little bit) but I think there is a very apparent trend in the Parke Co situation.  Here is some data I pulled off of John Harrell's website.

Football(Last 4 Years) Wins Losses Average Average Win % Last Sectional Championship
Turkey Run(14, 15, 16, 17) 8 32 2-8 20% 2003
Rockville(14, 15, 16, 17) 15 27 4-7 36% 2008
Parke Heritage(18, 19, 20, 21) 24 7 6-2 75% NA
           
Basketball(Last 4 Years) Wins Losses Average Average Win % Last Sectional Championship
Turkey Run(14, 15, 16, 17) 28 59 7-15 32% NA
Rockville(14, 15, 16, 17) 48 53 12-13 48% 2012/13
Parke Heritage(18, 19, 20, 21) 52 22 13-5 72% 2019/20(Favorite in 2020/21)

 

In both BB and FB they make a significant leap in win %.  PH FB has been in the sectional championship 2 consecutive years(How they didn't win at leas tone of them blws my mind).  PH BB is a statistical favorite to repeat as sectional champion.

What other reason was there to consolidate schools?

There is absolutely no way it was to save money, because they still operate both buildings, TR as the MS, and Rox as the HS.  Additionally they have to bus all of the TR HS students to Rox and the Rox MS students to TR.

On top of all that they had to re-brand TWO campuses as well as supply new uniforms for EVERY. SINGLE. SPORT.

This has got to be a million dollar consolidation... for what????  The clear advantage was to be absolutely relevant in every sport.  This data reflects BB and FB but their VB team has been good, GB, Tennis, etc.

 

In relation to this thread though... the NSF would not have prevented this as both Turkey Run and Rockville competed in 1A in all classes.

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36 minutes ago, Dolts said:

I'm not going to try and stir this up too much(just a little bit) but I think there is a very apparent trend in the Parke Co situation.  Here is some data I pulled off of John Harrell's website.

 

Football(Last 4 Years) Wins Losses Average Average Win % Last Sectional Championship
Turkey Run(14, 15, 16, 17) 8 32 2-8 20% 2003
Rockville(14, 15, 16, 17) 15 27 4-7 36% 2008
Parke Heritage(18, 19, 20, 21) 24 7 6-2 75% NA
           
Basketball(Last 4 Years) Wins Losses Average Average Win % Last Sectional Championship
Turkey Run(14, 15, 16, 17) 28 59 7-15 32% NA
Rockville(14, 15, 16, 17) 48 53 12-13 48% 2012/13
Parke Heritage(18, 19, 20, 21) 52 22 13-5 72% 2019/20(Favorite in 2020/21)

 

In both BB and FB they make a significant leap in win %.  PH FB has been in the sectional championship 2 consecutive years(How they didn't win at leas tone of them blws my mind).  PH BB is a statistical favorite to repeat as sectional champion.

What other reason was there to consolidate schools?

There is absolutely no way it was to save money, because they still operate both buildings, TR as the MS, and Rox as the HS.  Additionally they have to bus all of the TR HS students to Rox and the Rox MS students to TR.

On top of all that they had to re-brand TWO campuses as well as supply new uniforms for EVERY. SINGLE. SPORT.

This has got to be a million dollar consolidation... for what????  The clear advantage was to be absolutely relevant in every sport.  This data reflects BB and FB but their VB team has been good, GB, Tennis, etc.

 

In relation to this thread though... the NSF would not have prevented this as both Turkey Run and Rockville competed in 1A in all classes.

You don’t know that because the top of 1a would move up because of the nsf shift of 2a to 1a. 

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44 minutes ago, Dolts said:

IWhat other reason was there to consolidate schools?

 

I'm assuming before the consolidation that Rockville and Turkey Run were separate government school corporations? Therefore a consolidation would save $ on administrative staff like a superintendent.

 

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4 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

I'm assuming before the consolidation that Rockville and Turkey Run were separate government school corporations? Therefore a consolidation would save $ on administrative staff like a superintendent.

 

They were a joint corporation.   North Central Parke Community School Corporation, the same one PH operates under currently.  I believe they were 2 separate corporations until about 2013

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57 minutes ago, Dolts said:

I'm not going to try and stir this up too much(just a little bit) but I think there is a very apparent trend in the Parke Co situation.  Here is some data I pulled off of John Harrell's website.

 

Football(Last 4 Years) Wins Losses Average Average Win % Last Sectional Championship
Turkey Run(14, 15, 16, 17) 8 32 2-8 20% 2003
Rockville(14, 15, 16, 17) 15 27 4-7 36% 2008
Parke Heritage(18, 19, 20, 21) 24 7 6-2 75% NA
           
Basketball(Last 4 Years) Wins Losses Average Average Win % Last Sectional Championship
Turkey Run(14, 15, 16, 17) 28 59 7-15 32% NA
Rockville(14, 15, 16, 17) 48 53 12-13 48% 2012/13
Parke Heritage(18, 19, 20, 21) 52 22 13-5 72% 2019/20(Favorite in 2020/21)

 

In both BB and FB they make a significant leap in win %.  PH FB has been in the sectional championship 2 consecutive years(How they didn't win at leas tone of them blws my mind).  PH BB is a statistical favorite to repeat as sectional champion.

What other reason was there to consolidate schools?

There is absolutely no way it was to save money, because they still operate both buildings, TR as the MS, and Rox as the HS.  Additionally they have to bus all of the TR HS students to Rox and the Rox MS students to TR.

On top of all that they had to re-brand TWO campuses as well as supply new uniforms for EVERY. SINGLE. SPORT.

This has got to be a million dollar consolidation... for what????  The clear advantage was to be absolutely relevant in every sport.  This data reflects BB and FB but their VB team has been good, GB, Tennis, etc.

 

In relation to this thread though... the NSF would not have prevented this as both Turkey Run and Rockville competed in 1A in all classes.

Basically, TR and R decided to contract and consolidate.  Looks like they made a great move.  

22 minutes ago, Whiting89 said:

You don’t know that because the top of 1a would move up because of the nsf shift of 2a to 1a. 

Isnt that a good thing?

1 hour ago, Dolts said:

I'm not going to try and stir this up too much(just a little bit) but I think there is a very apparent trend in the Parke Co situation.  Here is some data I pulled off of John Harrell's website.

 

Football(Last 4 Years) Wins Losses Average Average Win % Last Sectional Championship
Turkey Run(14, 15, 16, 17) 8 32 2-8 20% 2003
Rockville(14, 15, 16, 17) 15 27 4-7 36% 2008
Parke Heritage(18, 19, 20, 21) 24 7 6-2 75% NA
           
Basketball(Last 4 Years) Wins Losses Average Average Win % Last Sectional Championship
Turkey Run(14, 15, 16, 17) 28 59 7-15 32% NA
Rockville(14, 15, 16, 17) 48 53 12-13 48% 2012/13
Parke Heritage(18, 19, 20, 21) 52 22 13-5 72% 2019/20(Favorite in 2020/21)

 

In both BB and FB they make a significant leap in win %.  PH FB has been in the sectional championship 2 consecutive years(How they didn't win at leas tone of them blws my mind).  PH BB is a statistical favorite to repeat as sectional champion.

What other reason was there to consolidate schools?

There is absolutely no way it was to save money, because they still operate both buildings, TR as the MS, and Rox as the HS.  Additionally they have to bus all of the TR HS students to Rox and the Rox MS students to TR.

On top of all that they had to re-brand TWO campuses as well as supply new uniforms for EVERY. SINGLE. SPORT.

This has got to be a million dollar consolidation... for what????  The clear advantage was to be absolutely relevant in every sport.  This data reflects BB and FB but their VB team has been good, GB, Tennis, etc.

 

In relation to this thread though... the NSF would not have prevented this as both Turkey Run and Rockville competed in 1A in all classes.

Nice work!  Great stuff

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1 hour ago, Dolts said:


In both BB and FB they make a significant leap in win %.  PH FB has been in the sectional championship 2 consecutive years(How they didn't win at leas tone of them blws my mind).

What other reason was there to consolidate schools?

 

Maybe if they add another school they will finally put a football trophy in the trophy case. Rockville and Marshall would go crazy! The Wolfs have many pieces in place to make it happen!

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50 minutes ago, Tanka Jahari said:

Maybe if they add another school they will finally put a football trophy in the trophy case. Rockville and Marshall would go crazy! The Wolfs have many pieces in place to make it happen!

PH will never be big time until they invest in endzone cameras   Take it to the bank!

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58 minutes ago, Tanka Jahari said:

Maybe if they add another school they will finally put a football trophy in the trophy case. Rockville and Marshall would go crazy! The Wolfs have many pieces in place to make it happen!

They do not invest in end zone camera excellence?

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