Proposal to Make Enrollment based Adjustments to Class 5A and 6A

[Grover]

9 hours ago, BTF said:

Not sure how "I'm" taking the easy way out. I follow a football program with an enrollment of 1800 who has a respectable record of 8-13 against mega giants Carmel, Ben Davis, and Warren Central. I enjoy watching them play against the big boys. I'm advocating for the masses and what is right. And a school playing another that is double in enrollment isn't right. Is it possible for a small school to beat a big school if they put in the hard work? Absolutely. Is it right that they have to put in three times the work to do so because of the massive disadvantage in enrollment? I don't think so. 

Yet the proposal you endorse leaves exactly that.

[Bobref]

8 hours ago, gonzoron said:

Yep, not a sport for sissies in short shorts.

I thought we weren’t allowed to use that word any longer?

[gonzoron]

8 minutes ago, Bobref said:

I thought we weren’t allowed to use that word any longer?

I must not have gotten that memo. It's a staple of mine.

[Guest DT]

38 minutes ago, Lysander said:

So, when the current group of “5A” schools had their own special carve out to win a State Championship in the new 5A there was “new life” breathed into them?

The reality was that other than Snider (who had played in the original 5A Championship a couple of years prior and was already a legit power) the NEW 5A patient was DOA. 

Bumped up 4A schools who already knew how to play football have owned 5A.

Redrawing the lines doesn’t improve play.  It has to self-develop within the schools and communities.

The inclusion of the forgotten 8 will rebalance the power divide between 4A and 5A

I'm looking forward to that Merrillville - Columbus North 5A state championship game.

[DE]

9 hours ago, gonzoron said:

Yep, not a sport for sissies in short shorts.

Still rolling on the ground with other dudes.

Short shorts?  😂

Proving how clueless you really are.

14 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

I must not have gotten that memo. It's a staple of mine.

Hey.  At least you aren't a snowflake.  🤣

23 minutes ago, Bobref said:

I thought we weren’t allowed to use that word any longer?

🤣

[Bash Riprock]

10 hours ago, temptation said:

No doubt, but in education/athletics, it all starts at home.

Everyone’s finish line is obviously not the same but you also have to keep in mind that neither was their starting line.

I am not saying isn't a variable in the equation...we just differ in opinion as to the magnitude of the variable.

I can point to schools across this country that are in lower income areas that have dominate football programs.  Study Florida for example.  I can also identify many higher income schools across this country that have lackluster football programs.  We can point to several in our own state.  

Now to my question....of the bottom 8 sized schools in 6A that are being proposed to being moved down to 5A, how many of those schools and which ones would you consider lower income?  I am just trying to determine if we calibrate on the definition.  And if they (or most) are not considered lower income, then it must be a numbers game of enrollment....and as I pointed out, the number difference is not that significant from schools in the middle of the pack in 6A and outside of the top 8.  

[southend]

An aside, one of the great volleyball coaches in the US , Arnie Ball, Olympic and college ,got his start at New Haven High. In the early 70’s. Then in about ‘73 moved over to the new EAST Allen school, Paul Harding as baseball coach. Then started the club volleyball program.  I think they lived i Woodburn at the time. 
I know Bob Knight recruited the Ball’s for Basketball, pretty aggressively in the 80’s.  Was his  Son Lloy, who chose Volleyball, over Indiana. Both dad and some are legends in the sport, in a state that is ignorant of the popularity volleyball carries.  

[temptation]

6 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

I am not saying isn't a variable in the equation...we just differ in opinion as to the magnitude of the variable.

I can point to schools across this country that are in lower income areas that have dominate football programs.  Study Florida for example.  I can also identify many higher income schools across this country that have lackluster football programs.  We can point to several in our own state.  

Now to my question....of the bottom 8 sized schools in 6A that are being proposed to being moved down to 5A, how many of those schools and which ones would you consider lower income?  I am just trying to determine if we calibrate on the definition.  And if they (or most) are not considered lower income, then it must be a numbers game of enrollment....and as I pointed out, the number difference is not that significant from schools in the middle of the pack in 6A and outside of the top 8.  

Well, pre pandemic the statewide average for free and reduced lunch rate was sitting at 49 percent.  Therefore, I’d define any schools above that figure as impoverished.  I’d be willing to negotiate however.

(I can’t speak to other parts of the country, though I’ll take your word for it unless you wish to provide specific data.)

[Muda69]

17 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Checkers? Dude, you haven't even passed Go yet. 

You pass Go in the game of Checkers?

 

[Muda69]

19 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

Now to my question....of the bottom 8 sized schools in 6A that are being proposed to being moved down to 5A, how many of those schools and which ones would you consider lower income?  

Lafayette Jefferson High School has a 61.7% free/reduced lunch/textbooks population:  https://inview.doe.in.gov/schools/1078558069/population

Is that lower income?

 

[Footballking16]

22 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

You pass Go in the game of Checkers?

 

YoU DiDN't KNoW ThAt?

[Muda69]

Just now, Footballking16 said:

YoU DiDN't KNoW ThAt?

What is with the strange capitalization in your question?

 

[gonzoron]

16 minutes ago, temptation said:

Well, pre pandemic the statewide average for free and reduced lunch rate was sitting at 49 percent.

It's 100% now.

[Guest DT]

10 hours ago, BTF said:

Agree to disagree. 

Its easy to pontificate from the top of Mt Cathedral

 

[MICFan34]

The whole point of introducing a new 6A in 2013 was to give the lowest 32 teams of the old 5A a playing field of their own, yet that isn't what happened at all. 

ALL 5A State Champions and Runners-Up since the New 5A (starting in 2013) 

2013 & 2014: Cathedral (4A Enrollment) vs Westfield and LaPorte

2015: Fort Wayne Snider (Historically great program) vs New Pal (4A Enrollment) 

2016: Westfield (2nd largest school in 5A at the time) vs Columbus East

2017: Columbus East (Historically great program AND one of the lowest enrollments in 5A at the time) vs Kokomo

2018 & 2019: New Pal (4A Enrollment) vs Decatur Central and Valpo (Who made it to semistate in 6A and should have beat Carmel several years ago) 

2020: Cathedral (4A Enrollment) vs Zionsville (6A school playing in 5A who WON a sectional in 6A in 2019)

Of the 16 state finalists since the new 5A, I see ONLY three teams that legitimately benefitted from this new classification (LaPorte, Kokomo, Decatur Central). Magically bumping down the "Forgotten 8" won't make them become elite programs in 5A. The ELITE programs of 4A and 5A will keep dominating and winning 5A state titles. Don't water down the competition because your team doesn't have the necessary support to field championship-winning football teams, like Cathedral/New Pal/Westfield/East/Snider or able to compete with the big boys and win trophies in 6A (Valpo, Zionsville). 

Edited August 13, 2021 by MICFan34

[Footballking16]

37 minutes ago, DT said:

Its easy to pontificate from the top of Mt Cathedral

 

Cathedral has been the smallest enrollment school in their class since the inception of the SF and by this time next year will be competing in a class two above their normal enrollment for the second time. What in the hell are you talking about?

[BTF]

48 minutes ago, DT said:

Its easy to pontificate from the top of Mt Cathedral

 

I'm still in the discussion, just not necessarily with him. I can't help someone who doesn't understand  that a team of 4000 has an advantage over a team of 2000. We all know Catholic schools have an advantage, so it's hard to take them seriously on the issue of enrollment. 

3 hours ago, Grover said:

Yet the proposal you endorse leaves exactly that.

Minus eight.

[Footballking16]

20 minutes ago, BTF said:

I'm still in the discussion, just not necessarily with him. I can't help someone who doesn't understand  that a team of 4000 has an advantage over a team of 2000. We all know Catholic schools have an advantage, so it's hard to take them seriously on the issue of enrollment.

There's two freaking schools in the state that have 4000+ students. THOSE ARE THE OUTLIERS. Dummying down the system, again, because of two schools, for the benefit of 8 is stupid (and wrong). An overwhelming majority of 8 teams listed don't ever play Carmel or Ben Davis in the tournament because they can't get out of sectionals against like-sized publics. It's a neanderthal argument. 

[Bash Riprock]

12 minutes ago, BTF said:

I'm still in the discussion, just not necessarily with him. I can't help someone who doesn't understand  that a team of 4000 has an advantage over a team of 2000. We all know Catholic schools have an advantage, so it's hard to take them seriously on the issue of enrollment. 

 

I'm glad CG and Westfield haven't bought into the concept that they can't compete at the 6A level with the big boys and that enrollment differential.....I'm not sure Zionsville buys into that as well.  Along with Westfield, they seem to hold their own in the HCC.  

[BTF]

8 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

There's two freaking schools in the state that have 4000+ students. THOSE ARE THE OUTLIERS. Dummying down the system, again, because of two schools, for the benefit of 8 is stupid (and wrong). An overwhelming majority of 8 teams listed don't ever play Carmel or Ben Davis in the tournament because they can't get out of sectionals against like-sized publics. It's a neanderthal argument. 

So the attitude toward those eight schools is "you never have and you never will?"

[BTF]

Just now, Bash Riprock said:

I'm glad CG and Westfield haven't bought into the concept that they can't compete at the 6A level with the big boys and that enrollment differential.....I'm not sure Zionsville buys into that as well.  Along with Westfield, they seem to hold their own in the HCC.  

How do you know any of the said eight programs other than Merrillville are buying into that concept? I don't see any of their representatives on here touting what is being offered. Most coaches will simply say "we play where the IHSAA asks us to play." DT has offered a great proposal for the IHSAA to consider. In the end, they will decide. 

[NLCTigerFan07]

Here is one issue I have with the proposal of potentially moving 6A to a class of 24 teams... 

No matter WHO the teams are, a 24 team bracket means you would have 8, 3-team sectionals with 1 team in each sectional having a bye directly into the sectional championship. The ONLY way I would even get remotely on board with something like this is if the sectionals were seeded, allowing the top team to have that bye and be guaranteed the home game for sectional championship. As well, the second highest team would host the first round game. At least give some reward to the teams who have a better seasons. You could even do 4, 6-team regionals and seed them appropriately.

I know this isn't the best model per se - but who says no to this tournament example? (using Sagarin ratings from the end of the tournament - I couldn't find the ratings from the end of the regular season. Obviously, you could use some other sort of ranking system)

 

[MICFan34]

Just now, Footballking16 said:

There's two freaking schools in the state that have 4000+ students. THOSE ARE THE OUTLIERS. Dummying down the system, again, because of two schools, for the benefit of 8 is stupid (and wrong). An overwhelming majority of 8 teams listed don't ever play Carmel or Ben Davis in the tournament because they can't get out of sectionals against like-sized publics. It's a neanderthal argument. 

Here are the sectional alignments from last year with how each of the schools rank in the state in enrollment. I did not see Elkhart's so I added their consolidated enrollments and they came in about 10th-ish. 

Sectional 1: Crown Point (12), Laf Jeff (27), Merrillville (25), Lake Central (6), Winner: Merrillville (25)

Sectional 2: Chesterton (28), Elkhart (10th-ish) , Penn (6), Portage (19), Winner: Elkhart (10)

Sectional 3: Snider (39), Homestead (20) Carroll (21), Warsaw (26th) Winner: Homestead (20)

Sectional 4: Fishers (5th), HSE (9th), Noblesville (11th), Westfield (22), Winner: Westfield (22)

Sectional 5: Avon (10), Brownsburg (13), Carmel (1), Pike (8), Winner: Carmel (1)

Sectional 6: Ben Davis (2), Perry Meridian (18), Southport (24), Tech (15), Winner: Ben Davis (2)

Sectional 7: Lawrence Central (23), Lawrence North (16), North Central (4), Warren Central (3), Winner: Warren Central (3)

Sectional 8: Franklin Central (14), Columbus East (62), Columbus North (28), Center Grove (17), Winner: Center Grove (17)

After looking at this, there's only a FEW teams that have a legit gripe about enrollment in their sectional:

1. Chesterton (They lost to a 1A school and 4A school by enrollment-albeit two quality programs) They would not win in a class below them. 

2. Westfield (They made it to the 6A State championship, beating #11, #5, #20, #25 (enrollments) in the tournament)

3. Perry (They won 1 game in a 4A-5A conference, they would not win a class below them)

4. Southport (They have won 2 sectionals in the past 10 years, losing to CG in Regionals each time. They have a respectable record over the last 10 years but would probably lose to Decatur, Plainfield, Cathedral, New Pal in sectionals each year.)

5. Tech (Socio-economic factors will make them an afterthought and would not win anything in a class below them)

6. Success Factor Teams (C-East & Snider)

[Footballking16]

26 minutes ago, BTF said:

So the attitude toward those eight schools is "you never have and you never will?"

The tournament is designed to crown the best team, not cater to individual schools. We currently don't have seeding, let alone a qualification format, I'd say those 8 schools have it as good as they are going to get it. Again, the problem isn't mega-school enrollments. It's a Center Grove, Carmel, Warren, BD problem. If you magically removed Ben Davis and Warren from the equation, people would still complain about a Center Grove and Carmel problem.

Simple solution is to permanently move Carmel to the South. Would still make for blowouts in the state title game but you'd at least get better representation from the North. A lot more practical solution than further diluting an already diluted field. 

[Footballking16]

23 minutes ago, MICFan34 said:

Here are the sectional alignments from last year with how each of the schools rank in the state in enrollment. I did not see Elkhart's so I added their consolidated enrollments and they came in about 10th-ish. 

Sectional 1: Crown Point (12), Laf Jeff (27), Merrillville (25), Lake Central (6), Winner: Merrillville (25)

Sectional 2: Chesterton (28), Elkhart (10th-ish) , Penn (6), Portage (19), Winner: Elkhart (10)

Sectional 3: Snider (39), Homestead (20) Carroll (21), Warsaw (26th) Winner: Homestead (20)

Sectional 4: Fishers (5th), HSE (9th), Noblesville (11th), Westfield (22), Winner: Westfield (22)

Sectional 5: Avon (10), Brownsburg (13), Carmel (1), Pike (8), Winner: Carmel (1)

Sectional 6: Ben Davis (2), Perry Meridian (18), Southport (24), Tech (15), Winner: Ben Davis (2)

Sectional 7: Lawrence Central (23), Lawrence North (16), North Central (4), Warren Central (3), Winner: Warren Central (3)

Sectional 8: Franklin Central (14), Columbus East (62), Columbus North (28), Center Grove (17), Winner: Center Grove (17)

After looking at this, there's only a FEW teams that have a legit gripe about enrollment in their sectional:

1. Chesterton (They lost to a 1A school and 4A school by enrollment-albeit two quality programs) They would not win in a class below them. 

2. Westfield (They made it to the 6A State championship, beating #11, #5, #20, #25 (enrollments) in the tournament)

3. Perry (They won 1 game in a 4A-5A conference, they would not win a class below them)

4. Southport (They have won 2 sectionals in the past 10 years, losing to CG in Regionals each time. They have a respectable record over the last 10 years but would probably lose to Decatur, Plainfield, Cathedral, New Pal in sectionals each year.)

5. Tech (Socio-economic factors will make them an afterthought and would not win anything in a class below them)

6. Success Factor Teams (C-East & Snider)

Thank you for actually doing this. I figured it would look something like this and looks even better visually. This entire argument is a farce. Dummying down 6A does nothing to enhance either the 5A or 6A tournament. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Footballking16