Sagarin Ratings issue?

[DumfriesYMCA]

You can see how everyone ranks currently but only if you view by class or sectional from Harrells page

but the main page that has all schools on 1 sheet is showing from last year still.

 

im not sure if the issue is known or if it’s already been reported but I figured this is as good of a place as any to mention it 

[Footballking16]

17 minutes ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

You can see how everyone ranks currently but only if you view by class or sectional from Harrells page

but the main page that has all schools on 1 sheet is showing from last year still.

 

im not sure if the issue is known or if it’s already been reported but I figured this is as good of a place as any to mention it 

Not sure, but I would take anything Sagarin related with a grain of salt until about week 5 or 6. 

[tango]

And with the SIAC and SAC, its probably Wk. 11..

[Lysander]

1 minute ago, tango said:

And with the SIAC and SAC, its probably Wk. 11..

Yep.  Definitely.  

[Titan32]

36 minutes ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

You can see how everyone ranks currently but only if you view by class or sectional from Harrells page

but the main page that has all schools on 1 sheet is showing from last year still.

 

im not sure if the issue is known or if it’s already been reported but I figured this is as good of a place as any to mention it 

This looks up to date:

http://sagarin.com/sports/hsfsend.htm

[PHJIrish]

All rankings are just for fun and discussion.   The only ranking that matters happens immediately after Thanksgiving.

[DumfriesYMCA]

5 hours ago, Titan32 said:

This looks up to date:

http://sagarin.com/sports/hsfsend.htm

When I load the page it’s showing center grove 14-0 and the time stamp is November 2020. It’s only if i view by class or sectional that I can see where a team is ranked currently.

 

idk I know it’s early for sagarin but I noticed it 

[Titan32]

On 8/25/2021 at 8:31 PM, DumfriesYMCA said:

When I load the page it’s showing center grove 14-0 and the time stamp is November 2020. It’s only if i view by class or sectional that I can see where a team is ranked currently.

 

idk I know it’s early for sagarin but I noticed it 

You have a caching issue in your browser!  Clear your history.

[PHJIrish]

Indiana High School Football Ratings Page (sagarin.com)

Westfield ranked #92?  Now that's silly!🤣

[DumfriesYMCA]

1 hour ago, Titan32 said:

You have a caching issue in your browser!  Clear your history.

Bless you, this worked….except for the part where I had to relog into here and then forgot my password and got locked out and had to reset everything 😂

[Gipper]

I've never cared all that much for ranking this early in the season.

[hhpatriot04]

14 hours ago, Gipper said:

I've never cared all that much for ranking this early in the season.

There's nothing to measure or relate. CalPreps and other systems have a "program" factor, but unless it is accounting for the 18 starters a team loses or retains every year, coaching changes, off season training, it's a crap shoot! 

[Gipper]

15 minutes ago, hhpatriot04 said:

There's nothing to measure or relate. CalPreps and other systems have a "program" factor, but unless it is accounting for the 18 starters a team loses or retains every year, coaching changes, off season training, it's a crap shoot! 

True that.

[kingtut]

On 8/25/2021 at 3:12 PM, Footballking16 said:

Not sure, but I would take anything Sagarin related with a grain of salt until about week 5 or 6. 

Agree.  I was shocked this morning to see my Linton Miners ranked No. 1 in 2A.  Yes, the Miners are pretty good and have 2 good wins but I was surprised at that ranking and with our nemesis Mater Dei at 6th. As Footballking indicted, It's pretty meaningless at this stage of the season. 

[DumfriesYMCA]

6 minutes ago, kingtut said:

Agree.  I was shocked this morning to see my Linton Miners ranked No. 1 in 2A.  Yes, the Miners are pretty good and have 2 good wins but I was surprised at that ranking and with our nemesis Mater Dei at 6th. As Footballking indicted, It's pretty meaningless at this stage of the season. 

If it helps Gibson Southern is currently ranked #4 in the entire state and above teams like cathedral and Carmel lol 

[psaboy]

I wonder how the Sagarin strength of schedule is figured out. Looking at 2A teams Linton-Stockton (Rank 21) and Luers (Rank 22) doesn't add up. Luers has played and beat two 6A teams and one 4A team, while Linton-Stockton has played and beaten two 3A's and one 2A. Seems a bit out of whack IMO.

[Lysander]

2 hours ago, psaboy said:

I wonder how the Sagarin strength of schedule is figured out. Looking at 2A teams Linton-Stockton (Rank 21) and Luers (Rank 22) doesn't add up. Luers has played and beat two 6A teams and one 4A team, while Linton-Stockton has played and beaten two 3A's and one 2A. Seems a bit out of whack IMO.

Aside from Sagarin not caring about Class, SAC and SIAC rankings are going to be worthless (except as to the conference internals) until after Week 1 of playoffs.

Don’t we beat this same horse to death every years as regards SAC and SIAC (as of last year?) rankings?  

That said, the SIAC guys “got it” pretty quickly.  I think about 1/2 of them are barristers, though.  Jeez…imagine a place where 1/2 the people are attorneys…

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by Lysander

[foxbat]

2 hours ago, psaboy said:

I wonder how the Sagarin strength of schedule is figured out. Looking at 2A teams Linton-Stockton (Rank 21) and Luers (Rank 22) doesn't add up. Luers has played and beat two 6A teams and one 4A team, while Linton-Stockton has played and beaten two 3A's and one 2A. Seems a bit out of whack IMO.

The classes don't matter all that much directly.  Sagarin is, for the most part, class-agnostic in its formulation, although size, etc. does play a part indirectly ... i.e., all things relatively equal a 6A school should wear down a 3A school over four quarters.

Realize that Linton has played a pair of teams, Sullivan and Southridge, with 86.x and 85.x ratings respectively.  Outside of Washington, those are the strongest schedule teams in 3A so far.  Monrovia's sitting at 53.x. 

For Luers, the opponent strengths are Carroll at 77.x and Wayne at 79.x. and Homestead at 65.x.  The Wayne strength is fairly decent for 4A, but the others are average at best for the respective class.  Toss in that there's the "in-breeding" factor of the SAC for scheduling ... they play a "self-contained" league schedule for their nine games ... and that's going to skew some of the Sagarin numbers that you see for Luers and other SAC teams.

[tango]

4 hours ago, Lysander said:

That said, the SIAC guys “got it” pretty quickly.  I think about 1/2 of them are barristers, though.  Jeez…imagine a place where 1/2 the people are attorneys…

 

It's called Hades, right?

[psaboy]

5 hours ago, Lysander said:

Aside from Sagarin not caring about Class, SAC and SIAC rankings are going to be worthless (except as to the conference internals) until after Week 1 of playoffs.

Don’t we beat this same horse to death every years as regards SAC and SIAC (as of last year?) rankings?  

That said, the SIAC guys “got it” pretty quickly.  I think about 1/2 of them are barristers, though.  Jeez…imagine a place where 1/2 the people are attorneys…

 

Yea, I know the SAC and SIAC live in a bubble.

[QB]

8 hours ago, foxbat said:

The classes don't matter all that much directly.  Sagarin is, for the most part, class-agnostic in its formulation, although size, etc. does play a part indirectly ... i.e., all things relatively equal a 6A school should wear down a 3A school over four quarters.

Realize that Linton has played a pair of teams, Sullivan and Southridge, with 86.x and 85.x ratings respectively.  Outside of Washington, those are the strongest schedule teams in 3A so far.  Monrovia's sitting at 53.x. 

For Luers, the opponent strengths are Carroll at 77.x and Wayne at 79.x. and Homestead at 65.x.  The Wayne strength is fairly decent for 4A, but the others are average at best for the respective class.  Toss in that there's the "in-breeding" factor of the SAC for scheduling ... they play a "self-contained" league schedule for their nine games ... and that's going to skew some of the Sagarin numbers that you see for Luers and other SAC teams.

Something I've been thinking about since instituting the running clock rule.... Does that factor in at all to Sagarin's calculations? The difference between a 35-0 game and a 35-14 game because a team put in the JV against the opponents starters seems like it would make a pretty big difference if there was no consideration to getting the mercy rule to trigger. 

[MarshallCounty]

Did anyone mention how out of state games don’t get factored in.

[foxbat]

36 minutes ago, QB said:

Something I've been thinking about since instituting the running clock rule.... Does that factor in at all to Sagarin's calculations? The difference between a 35-0 game and a 35-14 game because a team put in the JV against the opponents starters seems like it would make a pretty big difference if there was no consideration to getting the mercy rule to trigger. 

That is true to an extent, but I suspect that it is mitigated to the extent that, realistically, the gaps in games where mercy rule is triggered vs. those where it isn't, is of less consequence.  I would venture a strong guess that, when a team plays its JV vs. starters, the two teams aren't close in true Sagarin scores to begin with.  As such, the difference in scoring carries less impact.  In a sense, it like the inverse of betting red/black in roulette vs. betting a column or a specific number.  Two teams that are close to each other in Sagarin ratings would likely see a 35-14 score count more than two teams separated by 20 Sagarin points where the higher-rated team wins 35-14.  Sagarin's PREDICTOR has a blunting effect once the scores get to a certain point ... running up the score has much less impact once you get to that 35-point point

The old ELO-Chess rating took out the point differentials as a weighting, but I noticed that Sagarin has removed those from his stats.  In theory, they don't matter much at all until you have a decent number of data points, so they wouldn't be overly reliant/helpful at this point of the season.  Will be interesting to see if they are added back later on in the season.