Roncalli vs Shortridge and other clearly lopsided sectional games

[Komets2727]

The NCAA men’s basketball tournament let’s everyone in postseason play and is widely regarded as the best tournament in all of sports,March Madness!!! There have been countless upsets every year by teams that have stunk it up during the regular season only to make great runs in their conference tournament and even win a national title. Villanova and North Carolina State easily come to mind to start and every year there are other teams that make this tournament great. And yes, had not Villanova and NC State not won their conference tourney they would NOT made the field… Carry on

[ragdoll]

1 hour ago, Footballking16 said:

How much better is it as college football fan of say a school like Kansas right now? Historically awful program that up until last week was undefeated and ranked in the top 25? 

Think how cool it would be for an historically awful football program in the state of Indiana to play in actual meaningful regular season games that were building blocks to qualifying for a coveted playoff spot? Imagine a team that regularly starts 0-4, 0-5 starting off 3-0 or 4-0 with a light at the end of the tunnel. And not just for the players and coaches, but for the students, the fans, and the whole community? 

Oh no, someone brought up the historically 98lb weakling on the beach, Kansas. Well, Rock Chalk 1984 win over Troy Aikman-Brian Boswort-Tony Casillas led top ranked Oklahoma. Those Jayhawks that remember, still put it in their pipe and smoke it. Oklahoma played for national title in Orange Bowl. Sometimes those weaklings read the back of the comic book and buy those pills.

[Footballking16]

1 minute ago, Komets2727 said:

The NCAA men’s basketball tournament let’s everyone in postseason play and is widely regarded as the best tournament in all of sports,March Madness!!! There have been countless upsets every year by teams that have stunk it up during the regular season only to make great runs in their conference tournament and even win a national title. Villanova and North Carolina State easily come to mind to start and every year there are other teams that make this tournament great. And yes, had not Villanova and NC State not won their conference tourney they would NOT made the field… Carry on

Uh wrong.

The NCAAT invites, ie have to qualify, 68 teams out of 350 some D1 basketball teams. 

Villanova and NC State EARNED their right to play in the NCAAT.

Keep trying. 

[gonzoron]

24 minutes ago, Bobref said:

So you believe a team like Hammond Noll, for example, that is now 0-7 and has been outscored about 10-1 this season so far, really believes they have a chance to turn it around and make a run, starting with going on the road against a Lake Station team that beat them at Noll 48-7? 

Seeding the tournament would dramatically increase the number of these blowout games.

[jets]

I can't/nor do I want to go through all 6 pages of this thread, but in my skimming of the material I think something gets over-looked and overshadowed by the "qualifying" people. 

Seeding DOES NOT have to equal a qualifying process. YOU CAN STILL HAVE AN ALL-IN, SEEDED sectional! 

It really is THAT SIMPLE and, IMO, improves the tournament greatly and brings us towards the 21st century. 

It gives value to a good regular season (even if it is not perfect) and its not that hard. Wrestling coaches have been figuring it out for years. 

[Footballking16]

1 minute ago, gonzoron said:

Seeding the tournament would dramatically increase the number of these blowout games.

Good.

The next step would be to then implement a qualifying format. If Hammond Noll has to lose 100-0 at the expense of keeping teams like Ben Davis and Brownsburg on opposite ends of the bracket then so be it. People in charge need to wake up. 

Here is how archaic the all-in format is.

Ben Davis is going to win the MIC outright after going 5-0 when they inevitably beat North Central by 40+ points. Ben Davis' reward for winning arguably the 2nd toughest conference in the state is a date with the #1 ranked team in Indiana, Brownsburg, in the first round. That same North Central team who went 0-9 in the regular season has an easier first round sectional matchup than Ben Davis, a team who went undefeated in conference play and won the conference outright.

Or how about this. Brownsburg and HSE are going to finish 1-2 in the HCC, the toughest conference in the state. Brownsburg is going to play Ben Davis, a top 10 rated Sagarin team. Meanwhile, Avon who is currently 1-7 and in last place of said conference draws 1-8 Pike. How on Earth does that happen? Anyone who thinks that is acceptable or seriously thinks the regular season has true, inherent meaning needs their heads examined. 

PLEASE MAKE IT MAKE SENSE!

[Footballking16]

8 minutes ago, jets said:

I can't/nor do I want to go through all 6 pages of this thread, but in my skimming of the material I think something gets over-looked and overshadowed by the "qualifying" people. 

Seeding DOES NOT have to equal a qualifying process. YOU CAN STILL HAVE AN ALL-IN, SEEDED sectional! 

It really is THAT SIMPLE and, IMO, improves the tournament greatly and brings us towards the 21st century. 

It gives value to a good regular season (even if it is not perfect) and its not that hard. Wrestling coaches have been figuring it out for years. 

As a qualifier proponent I would 100% back an all-in format that truly seeded each sectional 1-4 or 1-8, as it would eventually be the precursor to a qualifying format. The IHSAA would have zero leg to stand on in justifying large scale, state-wide blowouts in every single sectional. 

But we all know this won't happen because of the above-mentioned.

[Bash Riprock]

45 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

For every IHSAA member school.
 

Show me another postseason format in any sport at any level where your regular season record doesn’t determine your seed/draw/opponent come postseason. A team in Indiana could theoretically not play a single regular season game and still compete in the postseason. It’s madness, make it make sense.

isnt this the case with most IHSAA sports??  Blind draws, all in?  Isn't this discussion really bigger than football?

[FinePrint]

9 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

As a qualifier proponent I would 100% back an all-in format that truly seeded each sectional 1-4 or 1-8, as it would eventually be the precursor to a qualifying format. The IHSAA would have zero leg to stand on in justifying large scale, state-wide blowouts in every single sectional. 

But we all know this won't happen because of the above-mentioned.

Correct.  Won't happen because it would lead to the qualifier format due to all the lopsided games.  BUT seeding 1 and 2 is easily done and would not lead to wholesale changes with the current format.

[Footballking16]

7 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

isnt this the case with most IHSAA sports??  Blind draws, all in?  Isn't this discussion really bigger than football?

Wrestling is the only IHSAA sport that I'm aware of that proportionally seeds sectionals, regionals, semi-state, and State. And it's also, at least in my opinion, the most exciting tournament of any sport. I've never wrestled in my life, and outside football, its the only IHSAA tournament I keep tabs.

What I was saying, is that if you go to any other sport at any level (high school, college, professional outside of IHSAA) you will never find another postseason format that just blindly disregards the regular season. Hell we used to have to qualify for the postseason back in CYO days. 

[Bobref]

I hear people talk about “accountability” all the time. How accountability leads to improvement. A qualifying format is the ultimate form of accountability.

[gonzoron]

13 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Wrestling is the only IHSAA sport that I'm aware of that proportionally seeds sectionals, regionals, semi-state, and State. And it's also, at least in my opinion, the most exciting tournament of any sport. I've never wrestled in my life, and outside football, its the only IHSAA tournament I keep tabs.

What I was saying, is that if you go to any other sport at any level (high school, college, professional outside of IHSAA) you will never find another postseason format that just blindly disregards the regular season. Hell we used to have to qualify for the postseason back in CYO days. 

Incorrect. Only 1 wrestling event in the state seeds teams. That is Team State.

[Footballking16]

11 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

Incorrect. Only 1 wrestling event in the state seeds teams. That is Team State.

Sectionals are most definitely seeded and you're placed in the following round based on your results from the previous round. Sectional 1 winner faces sectional 2 4th place finisher, etc and so on and so on until you get to the state finals. 

[gonzoron]

12 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Sectionals are most definitely seeded and you're placed in the following round based on your results from the previous round. Sectional 1 winner faces sectional 2 4th place finisher, etc and so on and so on until you get to the state finals. 

Those are individuals who are seeded, not the team. Apples to oranges comparing to football.

[Footballking16]

2 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

Those are individuals who are seeded, not the team. Apples to oranges comparing to football.

I never said anything about wrestling team state, you did.

If the IHSAA can seed individual wrestlers in 14 different weight classes it can certainly do it for 6 football classes.

[Bash Riprock]

48 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

What I was saying, is that if you go to any other sport at any level (high school, college, professional outside of IHSAA) you will never find another postseason format that just blindly disregards the regular season. Hell we used to have to qualify for the postseason back in CYO days. 

Not disagreeing with your statement....only saying that the mindset of the IHSAA for all-in, blind draws isn't limited to football.  It would require step change thinking across the board, rather than isolating for one sport.

Indiana high school football also used to have a qualifier for post-season play.  Back when there was only 3 classes I believe.  I remember those days well and remember 7-2 teams that did not accumulate enough points to qualify.  Perhaps that mistake years ago is why changing it back today is so difficult.  I am not sure.

Personally, for what its worth, I don't believe cutting a 32 team state tournament down to 16 teams is progress.  I do align with seeding, and believe if being creative the tournament could be structured to give out bye's to conference winners, top voted 8, etc.  I think it can be improved to make the regular season worth something, without eliminating teams, and teams from those classes that are already pretty small.  But, hey, its only an opinion.  Not arguing that I am correct.

[Bonecrusher]

On 10/11/2022 at 1:09 PM, foxbat said:

Yep!  Kind of like the Sectional of Death up this way.

I was in one of those 10-team districts that beat the cr*p out of each other trying to get one of those coveted spots and then getting wiped out in area.  They finally got us in an 8-team district recently and split the schools in our school district across two football districts.  If I'm not mistaken, the new alignment means that there are now no more than nine teams in a 6A football district. 

Yeah, 9's the limit, and there are a lot of districts on the limit.  They get 1 game, that "doesn't count", to work out the kinks.

[gonzoron]

24 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

I never said anything about wrestling team state, you did.

If the IHSAA can seed individual wrestlers in 14 different weight classes it can certainly do it for 6 football classes.

The IHSAA doesn't do the seeding for wrestling tournaments.

[Tippy]

45 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

Not disagreeing with your statement....only saying that the mindset of the IHSAA for all-in, blind draws isn't limited to football.  It would require step change thinking across the board, rather than isolating for one sport.

Indiana high school football also used to have a qualifier for post-season play.  Back when there was only 3 classes I believe.  I remember those days well and remember 7-2 teams that did not accumulate enough points to qualify.  Perhaps that mistake years ago is why changing it back today is so difficult.  I am not sure.

Personally, for what its worth, I don't believe cutting a 32 team state tournament down to 16 teams is progress.  I do align with seeding, and believe if being creative the tournament could be structured to give out bye's to conference winners, top voted 8, etc.  I think it can be improved to make the regular season worth something, without eliminating teams, and teams from those classes that are already pretty small.  But, hey, its only an opinion.  Not arguing that I am correct.

In 1979 and 1980 South Bend St. Joe went 10-0 both years and did not make the cut.

[Komets2727]

2 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Uh wrong.

The NCAAT invites, ie have to qualify, 68 teams out of 350 some D1 basketball teams. 

Villanova and NC State EARNED their right to play in the NCAAT.

Keep trying. 

Uh right, using your theory where bad teams shouldn’t even have the chance to make the postseason you have yet again been proven wrong. That is your whole argument. Neither Villanova or NC State would have qualified for the Big Dance without winning a conference tournament they everyone automatically qualified for regardless of their record. Make another bogus argument…

33 minutes ago, Tippy said:

In 1979 and 1980 South Bend St. Joe went 10-0 both years and did not make the cut.

Stop using logic, the almighty FootballKing does not understand it

[Footballking16]

6 minutes ago, Komets2727 said:

Uh right, using your theory where bad teams shouldn’t even have the chance to make the postseason you have yet again been proven wrong. That is your whole argument. Neither Villanova or NC State would have qualified for the Big Dance without winning a conference tournament they everyone automatically qualified for regardless of their record. Make another bogus argument…

You said every team makes the NCAAT. You are 100% wrong in that regard. The teams that qualify for the NCAAT do so in part due to regular season success. The all-in format doesn’t reward regular season success, let alone recognize it. You’re completely contradicting yourself and furthering my point. You look foolish in the process as well.

Keep trying.

6 minutes ago, Komets2727 said:

Stop using logic, the almighty FootballKing does not understand it

So it’s Cluster system or all-in? There’s no in-between? 50% inclusion is a compromise of both two terrible postseason formats. Solid analogy.

Again, keep trying.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Footballking16

[Footballking16]

41 minutes ago, Tippy said:

In 1979 and 1980 South Bend St. Joe went 10-0 both years and did not make the cut.

A qualifying format that cuts the field in half at the conclusion of the regular season would have included both the 1979 and 1980 SB St Joe’s team.

[FinePrint]

Looking at Sagarin today, there are several teams with winning records (5 or more wins) that would be excluded from the tournament.  That includes Elkhart at 7-1 and Warsaw at 6-2.  There are also several teams with 3 or fewer wins that would be included over some of the 5-6 win teams.  

What are you going to tell the Lions and the Tigers, @Footballking16?

[Footballking16]

1 minute ago, FinePrint said:

Looking at Sagarin today, there are several teams with winning records (5 or more wins) that would be excluded from the tournament.  That includes Elkhart at 7-1 and Warsaw at 6-2.  There are also several teams with 3 or fewer wins that would be included over some of the 5-6 win teams.  

What are you going to tell the Lions and the Tigers, @Footballking16?

I’d tell Elkhart and Warsaw to beef up their schedules.
 

Elkhart has the second easiest schedule of any 6A team in the state (and lost to the single 6A opponent they’ve played) while Warsaw hasn’t played a single 6A opponent yet.

[BTF]

5 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

I’d tell Elkhart and Warsaw to beef up their schedules.
 

Elkhart has the second easiest schedule of any 6A team in the state (and lost to the single 6A opponent they’ve played) while Warsaw hasn’t played a single 6A opponent yet.

Lol, you have an answer for everything.