Cathedral at Roncalli

[ragdoll]

44 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

During the Corso days, I watched a Osbourne led Nebraska team drop 63 on Indiana in Btown.  It happens....

Sorry nothing to do with the conversation...just an old man flashback!!  It was the number you chose to use!!!

An example back then if one had been arguing for a running clock mercy rule in NCAA during the era of  I-option offense. Did not the U refer to the Husker 3-3-5 D as "prehistoric" in their game prep for the 84 Orange Bowl against that invincible Nebraska team? 

[Dave007]

Cathedral played really well last two games, big improvement since start of the season.

Playoffs gonna be brutal hard to believe just a few regular season games left already.

 

Irish 49

Roncalli 14

Edited October 3, 2023 by Dave007

[Impartial_Observer]

3 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Why would they not? Roncalli HATES Cathedral. Roncalli hated Cathedral so much that at one point several years back, they tried to dictate where Cathedral got their kids ie "X amount of football roster must be catholic" while also telling Cathedral to stay out of the south deanery. When Cathedral laughed in their face, they took their ball and went home and stopped playing them. Cowards. 

I don’t think it’s just Roncalli that hates Cathedral. 
And I seem to recall some other issues ending the contract, but I’m old, my memory ain’t what it used to be. 

[dazed and confused]

6 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Why would they not? Roncalli HATES Cathedral. Roncalli hated Cathedral so much that at one point several years back, they tried to dictate where Cathedral got their kids ie "X amount of football roster must be catholic" while also telling Cathedral to stay out of the south deanery. When Cathedral laughed in their face, they took their ball and went home and stopped playing them. Cowards. 

Just had flashback of "Hurricane Scifres" !

[PHJIrish]

It's good to see some smack being thrown around this week, just like old times.  No, Roncalli isn't the only one to "hate" the Irish, but that's what makes the games fun.  Looking forward to headin' south Friday night!

[Lysander]

6 hours ago, Impartial_Observer said:

I don’t think it’s just Roncalli that hates Cathedral. 
And I seem to recall some other issues ending the contract, but I’m old, my memory ain’t what it used to be. 

I personally very, very much like @FootballKing16, but as regards Roncalli cowardice (and he loves to long beat that drum), my assumption is his memory is much less creaky than mine - YET he has overlooked the agreement that all the archdiocese schools, Brebeuf and Cathedral generated around 2006-7 (maybe a year either way).  As I understand, Cathedral EVEN helped develop it....until they decided they wanted nothing to do with it and it didn't apply to them.  

At the end of the day, the agreement was that those participant coaches and schools (Archdiocese schools, Brebeuf AND Cathedral.) could reach out to CYO TEAMS on a GROUP basis to promote their schools BUT could not reach out to the next INDIVIDUAL "Johnny Football" ("Johnny Soccer", etc........or the ENTIRE Pike Township Jr. High Basketball ALL-STARS as it might have happened) or his/her/its/they/mutant ninja turtle's parents on an individual basis and tell them they were going to start at QB as Freshman before their brief stop to Notre Dame.

From my observation, Roncalli stepped away from playing Cathedral at almost exactly the same time Cathedral said, "Screw You Guys!....we ain't playing by the rules we all agreed to.  But the rest of you can".  Pretty much a business as usual Cathedral position.  Somewhat surprised anyone participating expected anything different.

Rules are for the rest of us.

I actually have long admired the Rebels for that stance.....at least, until they became the "Royals" (wtf?).  Sign me on to @FootballKing16 as to Roncalli "cowardice" in that case....makes me kind of want the Irish to kick their morally cowardly @ss.....almost.

At that point, Roncalli stepped back.  Seems to me they just decided not to to business with someone unethical....speaking as a businessman.

As to hating a school, all I can say is that as an unsophisticated, poor-@ss Irish, kid from the hills and hollars of southeast Indiana, upon moving to Indianapolis some 45 years ago I NEVER "hate watched" Notre Dame hoping they would lose every game in every sport (I actually used to be a fan of Notre Dame).......until I first stumbled upon Cathedral HS  while having kids in the Archdiocese. 

Even better, as an Irishman (okay...German-Irish....I married a Catholic), I've even become a cheerleader of Cromwell's conquest of Ireland circa 1650.

Don't let anybody think that Cathedral doesn't influences lives.

Guess my work is done here.  

Me just making friends and building bridges.

Its what I do.

 

 

 

[Footballking16]

6 hours ago, Lysander said:

I personally very, very much like @FootballKing16, but as regards Roncalli cowardice (and he loves to long beat that drum), my assumption is his memory is much less creaky than mine - YET he has overlooked the agreement that all the archdiocese schools, Brebeuf and Cathedral generated around 2006-7 (maybe a year either way).  As I understand, Cathedral EVEN helped develop it....until they decided they wanted nothing to do with it and it didn't apply to them.  

At the end of the day, the agreement was that those participant coaches and schools (Archdiocese schools, Brebeuf AND Cathedral.) could reach out to CYO TEAMS on a GROUP basis to promote their schools BUT could not reach out to the next INDIVIDUAL "Johnny Football" ("Johnny Soccer", etc........or the ENTIRE Pike Township Jr. High Basketball ALL-STARS as it might have happened) or his/her/its/they/mutant ninja turtle's parents on an individual basis and tell them they were going to start at QB as Freshman before their brief stop to Notre Dame.

From my observation, Roncalli stepped away from playing Cathedral at almost exactly the same time Cathedral said, "Screw You Guys!....we ain't playing by the rules we all agreed to.  But the rest of you can".  Pretty much a business as usual Cathedral position.  Somewhat surprised anyone participating expected anything different.

Rules are for the rest of us.

I actually have long admired the Rebels for that stance.....at least, until they became the "Royals" (wtf?).  Sign me on to @FootballKing16 as to Roncalli "cowardice" in that case....makes me kind of want the Irish to kick their morally cowardly @ss.....almost.

At that point, Roncalli stepped back.  Seems to me they just decided not to to business with someone unethical....speaking as a businessman.

As to hating a school, all I can say is that as an unsophisticated, poor-@ss Irish, kid from the hills and hollars of southeast Indiana, upon moving to Indianapolis some 45 years ago I NEVER "hate watched" Notre Dame hoping they would lose every game in every sport (I actually used to be a fan of Notre Dame).......until I first stumbled upon Cathedral HS  while having kids in the Archdiocese. 

Even better, as an Irishman (okay...German-Irish....I married a Catholic), I've even become a cheerleader of Cromwell's conquest of Ireland circa 1650.

Don't let anybody think that Cathedral doesn't influences lives.

Guess my work is done here.  

Me just making friends and building bridges.

Its what I do.

 

 

 

You and I, along with everybody else, knows this had nothing to do with the principal agreement put in place and everything to do with Roncalli hitting a down cycle and not wanting to continue getting their tails kicked in. Roncalli still and to this day has scheduled Cathedral in every sport (Frosh, JV, Varsity) minus varsity football. It’s never been about what you’ve just claimed.

Roncalli wanted Cathedral to become more “Catholic” in regards to their football roster and Cathedral said, “We’re good”. Roncalli, took their ball and went home and the directions of each program couldn’t have gone different routes.

Cowards.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Footballking16

[Impartial_Observer]

41 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

You and I, along with everybody else, knows this had nothing to do with the principal agreement put in place and everything to do with Roncalli hitting a down cycle and not wanting to continue getting their tails kicked in. Roncalli still and to this day has scheduled Cathedral in every sport (Frosh, JV, Varsity) minus varsity football. It’s never been about what you’ve just claimed.

Roncalli wanted Cathedral to become more “Catholic” in regards to their football roster and Cathedral said, “We’re good”. Roncalli, took their ball and went home and the directions of each program couldn’t have gone different routes.

Cowards.

Some might argue the Rebs…..errr Royals are in a bit of a down cycle right now, yet here they are fresh after a trip to Male facing Cathedral with a home town finale vs another push over from SE Indiana. Outsider looking in, your argument doesn’t hold water. 

[Footballking16]

28 minutes ago, Impartial_Observer said:

Some might argue the Rebs…..errr Royals are in a bit of a down cycle right now, yet here they are fresh after a trip to Male facing Cathedral with a home town finale vs another push over from SE Indiana. Outsider looking in, your argument doesn’t hold water. 

The continuation of this series was announced a few years back when Roncalli was dominating 4A under Rodenburg who had previously played Cathedral every year while at Moeller. Roncalli has been exceptionally good the last 3 seasons, its no secret as to why they finally would agree to play Cathedral again....they had a chance of competing.

If Roncalli wanted to hold Cathedral to their end of the bargain, they would have dropped Cathedral in every sport, not just varsity football. This is window-dressing at its finest. It's no different than the MIC kicking out Center Grove and Carmel despite still playing them in nearly every sport outside football on Friday night. Cathedral returned the favor after being Roncalli's whipping boy for several seasons in the early 2000s and Roncalli couldn't handle it and quit.

Cowards.

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Footballking16

[Footballking16]

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/high-school/2021/02/18/indiana-football-cathedral-roncalli-rivalry-renewed-2023-schedule/4494230001/

Series was renewed in February of 2021, less than 3 months after Roncalli ran roughshod through the 4A tournament and was expected to return arguably their most talented on-paper team possibly ever. I find this quote from Roncalli's AD particularly interesting: 

“It’s been a work in progress for a few years to get this rivalry back together,” Roncalli athletic director David Lauck said. “We play Cathedral in all other sports, so it’s time to get back together on the gridiron.”

 

[Impartial_Observer]

11 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/high-school/2021/02/18/indiana-football-cathedral-roncalli-rivalry-renewed-2023-schedule/4494230001/

Series was renewed in February of 2021, less than 3 months after Roncalli ran roughshod through the 4A tournament and was expected to return arguably their most talented on-paper team possibly ever. I find this quote from Roncalli's AD particularly interesting: 

“It’s been a work in progress for a few years to get this rivalry back together,” Roncalli athletic director David Lauck said. “We play Cathedral in all other sports, so it’s time to get back together on the gridiron.”

 

Yes after winning one of the three they expected with what has been known was a strong group since they were in CYO. No one foreshadowed a long run of Roncalli dominance. It was a three year run, and the contract resumed after said run, I still fail to see your point. I don’t have a dog in the fight, you’re all cheatin Catholics as far as I’m concerned. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Impartial_Observer

[Footballking16]

4 minutes ago, Impartial_Observer said:

I still fail to see your point.

My point? That Roncalli's discontinuation of the series had nothing to do with the abovementioned agreement on how each school went about contacting CYO kids and everything to do with Roncalli's competitiveness (or lack thereof) on the field. The fact that Roncalli continued to schedule Cathedral in everything BUT varsity football only reaffirms that, as Roncalli is typically competitive and in some cases better than Cathedral at just about everything else. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Footballking16

[Lysander]

4 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

You and I, along with everybody else, knows this had nothing to do with the principal agreement put in place and everything to do with Roncalli hitting a down cycle and not wanting to continue getting their tails kicked in. Roncalli still and to this day has scheduled Cathedral in every sport (Frosh, JV, Varsity) minus varsity football. It’s never been about what you’ve just claimed.

Roncalli wanted Cathedral to become more “Catholic” in regards to their football roster and Cathedral said, “We’re good”. Roncalli, took their ball and went home and the directions of each program couldn’t have gone different routes.

Cowards.

Truthfully, I really don’t know.  The timing certainly was spot on as to Roncalli pulling the plug on the games.  I’d certainly have supported either Chatard OR Roncalli if they had refused to play Cathedral after that entire situation…which remains to this day as I understand it.  I’ve often thought Chatard demonstrated moral cowardice for NOT cancelling all their athletics with Cathedral and acting on principle.  

Admittedly, I’d have expected that plug to be pulled for all sports in Roncalli’s case….assuming that was the reasoning behind ending their seasonal football game.  I defer to Roncalli folks but the timing is more than coincidental…and I’m not a big believer in coincidence,

Regardless, that little bit of information is clearly relevant and remains an ongoing stain on Cathedral’s dealings with all the Indy Catholics….let alone the Publics. 

“Rules for thee but not for me.”

I’d cite something about glass houses but that might be too obvious. 

[Footballking16]

4 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Truthfully, I really don’t know.  The timing certainly was spot on as to Roncalli pulling the plug on the games.  I’d certainly have supported either Chatard OR Roncalli if they had refused to play Cathedral after that entire situation…which remains to this day as I understand it.  I’ve often thought Chatard demonstrated moral cowardice for NOT cancelling all their athletics with Cathedral and acting on principle.

The timing was right around the time Cathedral started getting "good" again and were no longer losing to Chatard and Roncalli back to back in weeks 3 and 4, like they had the several years prior. I believe Cathedral at one point had lost the last 8/9 games combined against Chatard/Roncalli. That is the coincidence here. 

 

7 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Admittedly, I’d have expected that plug to be pulled for all sports in Roncalli’s case….assuming that was the reasoning behind ending their seasonal football game.  I defer to Roncalli folks but the timing is more than coincidental…and I’m not a big believer in coincidence,

Which is why the entire facade was completely hypocritical. "Let's drop the one sport in which we're getting our asses hand to us under the guise of breaching a gentleman's agreement". Nobody buys that. It was a convenient out.

 

11 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Regardless, that little bit of information is clearly relevant and remains an ongoing stain on Cathedral’s dealings with all the Indy Catholics….let alone the Publics. 

“Rules for thee but not for me.”

Cathedral isn't a deanery school. Never has been and never will be. PHJ says it every year and as cliche as it sounds, Cathedral literally has to recruit every single one of its students. They have zero inherent feeder schools. The presence of south deanery kids on Cathedral's varsity roster is minimal at best and has been that way dating back to the time of this gentleman's agreement. The CYO presence in general is dwindling and that has been a consistent trajectory. It's just a stupid hill for Roncalli to die on

[Bash Riprock]

I see both sides on this one....To FB16's point, Roncalli had no problem playing CG for a number of years, until CG started beating them.  (awesome gates for both schools back in the day)  It is what CG is experiencing now with Carmel.  So I understand FB16's frustration with the Rebels...er, I mean Royals.  (just awful name change)

But, Lysander's explanation puts more icing on the cake...didn't know all of that...I can see where "adults" got upset and bailed.  Regardless of the past reason(s), has nothing to do with the players, coaches and perhaps sports admins today.  Glad they are back playing once again.

Time to let it go....I reckon' the man upstairs and his beloved son taught us all the importance of forgiveness through their own personal sacrifice for each and every one of us......although can be difficult, who are we not to do the same?

[Lysander]

15 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Cathedral isn't a deanery school. Never has been and never will be. PHJ says it every year and as cliche as it sounds, Cathedral literally has to recruit every single one of its students. They have zero inherent feeder schools. The presence of south deanery kids on Cathedral's varsity roster is minimal at best and has been that way dating back to the time of this gentleman's agreement. The CYO presence in general is dwindling and that has been a consistent trajectory. It's just a stupid hill for Roncalli to die on

It isn’t…..but neither is Brebeuf.  But EVERYBODY else involved in cooperatively developing the agreement ultimately signed off….until one school decided it didn’t need to.

Every P/P has to recruit every single one of its students.  Cathedral is neither alone or exceptional as regards that situation.  Public schools are free to everyone…..well…not exactly free as I realize each May and November.  “Ubiquitous” might be a better word choice.

I thought EVERYBODY at Cathedral was either a home grown, dyed in the wool Papist OR generational legacies…or both.  So that is no longer the case?  Admittedly, I don’t keep up with the current corporate marketing theme.

[Lysander]

32 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

So I understand FB16's frustration with the Rebels...er, I mean Royals.  (just awful name change)

I think you, FB16 and me can all agree that the name change was “cowardly”.….and gutless from my own perspective.

Swear to God, I always have to ask the person I’m talking to at the moment what Roncalli calls itself these days because I can’t remember their new gutless, homogenized name.  

[Footballking16]

33 minutes ago, Lysander said:

It isn’t…..but neither is Brebeuf.  But EVERYBODY else involved in cooperatively developing the agreement ultimately signed off….until one school decided it didn’t need to.

And I would question your naivety if you really think that agreement is enforced, let alone complied with by the agreeing members. But that's not for here. The "agreement" also wanted to restrict as many "outsiders" as possible (if you catch my drift) and Cathedral said to hell with it.

 

40 minutes ago, Lysander said:

I thought EVERYBODY at Cathedral was either a home grown, dyed in the wool Papist OR generational legacies…or both.  So that is no longer the case?  Admittedly, I don’t keep up with the current corporate marketing theme.

Cathedral's a diversified prep school with Catholic affiliation that is well represented within metropolitan Indianapolis. Been that way a while and continue to foresee it that way. And yes that includes lots of Catholics and lots of legacies, many of which are both. 

[gonzoron]

1 hour ago, Footballking16 said:

Cathedral's a diversified prep school with Catholic affiliation

What diocese are they affiliated with?

[Footballking16]

10 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

What diocese are they affiliated with?

Cathedral is recognized by the archdiocese of Indianapolis. However it doesn't receive any financial funding. 

[Rodney]

I was near an elementary school out east and there were roncalli rebels fans in the trailer right across the first grade classroom

least I think those were Roncalli flags

[FastpacedO]

19 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Cathedral isn't a deanery school. Never has been and never will be. PHJ says it every year and as cliche as it sounds, Cathedral literally has to recruit every single one of its students. They have zero inherent feeder schools. The presence of south deanery kids on Cathedral's varsity roster is minimal at best and has been that way dating back to the time of this gentleman's agreement. The CYO presence in general is dwindling and that has been a consistent trajectory. It's just a stupid hill for Roncalli to die on

Actually Cathedral was one of the original "Deanery" schools from 1918-1964 when the diocese turned over control to the Brothers of Holy Cross making them independent due to opening Scecina, Bishop Chartrand (Now merged with Sacred Heart/Kennedy to form Roncalli), Bishop Chatard, and Cardinal Ritter . After the Brothers closed the doors in 1972 alumni saved the school moved it and made it a Private Catholic school. Honestly "any" gentleman's agreement would and should never happen (especially with the close proximity of Cathedral and Chatard). There are legacy students and family names crawling the Cathedral hallways from every Deanery elementary school dating back to 1918 (even Southside). It wouldn't behoove Cathedral to do so due to that and the fact it would struggle to keep its doors open (even if the other Deanery High Schools don't like that). Regardless the archdiocese elementary schools have provided the large majority of students at Cathedral for 105 years.

18 hours ago, Bash Riprock said:

I see both sides on this one....To FB16's point, Roncalli had no problem playing CG for a number of years, until CG started beating them.  (awesome gates for both schools back in the day)  It is what CG is experiencing now with Carmel.  So I understand FB16's frustration with the Rebels...er, I mean Royals.  (just awful name change)

But, Lysander's explanation puts more icing on the cake...didn't know all of that...I can see where "adults" got upset and bailed.  Regardless of the past reason(s), has nothing to do with the players, coaches and perhaps sports admins today.  Glad they are back playing once again.

Time to let it go....I reckon' the man upstairs and his beloved son taught us all the importance of forgiveness through their own personal sacrifice for each and every one of us......although can be difficult, who are we not to do the same?

In all honesty with the explanation there is 2 sides to the story and the truth most likely lies in the middle and there is hyperbole and embellishment from both sides  (really only those inside the meetings know the truth). In all honesty "the gentlemans" agreement as it has been called in here would have been detrimental to Cathedral staying open (unlike Brebeuf which opened in 1962 and doesn't have as long of a storied presence within the Archdiocese schools).

[Impartial_Observer]

On 10/4/2023 at 10:30 AM, Footballking16 said:

My point? That Roncalli's discontinuation of the series had nothing to do with the abovementioned agreement on how each school went about contacting CYO kids and everything to do with Roncalli's competitiveness (or lack thereof) on the field. The fact that Roncalli continued to schedule Cathedral in everything BUT varsity football only reaffirms that, as Roncalli is typically competitive and in some cases better than Cathedral at just about everything else. 

The issue goes well above Roncalli or Cathedral’s athletic departments. You know that as well as anyone. What has changed in the last few years that would precipitate a new contract? Look at Roncalli’s SOS in any sport, they’re at the top. Your cowardice analogy is laughable. Perhaps someone more in tune with the holy wars could spell it out for you better than me. 

[FastpacedO]

10 minutes ago, Impartial_Observer said:

The issue goes well above Roncalli or Cathedral’s athletic departments. You know that as well as anyone. What has changed in the last few years that would precipitate a new contract? Look at Roncalli’s SOS in any sport, they’re at the top. Your cowardice analogy is laughable. Perhaps someone more in tune with the holy wars could spell it out for you better than me. 

[Footballking16]

29 minutes ago, Impartial_Observer said:

The issue goes well above Roncalli or Cathedral’s athletic departments. You know that as well as anyone. What has changed in the last few years that would precipitate a new contract? Look at Roncalli’s SOS in any sport, they’re at the top. Your cowardice analogy is laughable. Perhaps someone more in tune with the holy wars could spell it out for you better than me. 

Really?

So why was Roncalli the only school to drop Cathedral? And for football only no less? Cathedral still plays Chatard every year and has played Brebeuf several times since the agreement was drawn up. Ritter and Scecina aren't feasible football opponents for Cathedral so they don't really factor into the equation. This was absolutely an athletically motivated decision and anybody who believes otherwise is lying to themselves. If there were truly major philosophical differences between Cathedral and Roncalli they'd have discontinued any and all events. Roncalli was tired of getting their teeth kicked in by a rival and took the easy way out. Roncalli wanted to dictate Cathedral's demographics to level the playing field and Cathedral laughed at them. 

Cowards.

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by Footballking16