The p/p hegemony continues unabated

[Lysander]

8 hours ago, Irishman said:

But do non public schools have special needs students? It isn't only about kids with other interests. It's about the kids who are not able to participate because of various disabilities. There is also the population that is interested in nothing. Our building in particular has over 200 ELL kids, and more than 12% of our students are non diploma track kids. Yet we are in 4A.........implying that just based on numbers, we are identical to Bishop Dwenger. Want to know what the numbers above look like in their building? About 1% and all of their kids are diploma track kids. Others? and the ELL kids that Catholic Charities helped bring here as refugees? Non existent. 

You’ve always pointed out that there are special needs kids who simply aren’t going to participate in varsity level sports via some form of handicap (physical or otherwise….though I can actually recall a quite good one armed kicker for Batesville back in my day), severe learning disability, etc. (I admit questioning whether ELL might be somehow considered disqualifying).  I’ve always been in favor of not counting them towards student population as regards IHSAA class designations.  Is there some reason it is impractical or illegal to do so? That strikes me as a, frankly, uncontroversial (and sensible) change the IHSAA could institute tomorrow.  In a certain sense, it acts as a “negative multiplier” for Publics based on a very precise calculation.  

I realize it’s not a multiplier or automatic bump that some want but incorporating this into the IHSAA class determination calculation might go a heckuva long way towards making a reasonable adjustment EVERYBODY can get behind.

What am I missing here?

You’ve pointed this out for years.  It seems totally reasonable and sensible (at least, I’ve always thought so) but just why hasn’t it gotten any traction?

Edited December 2, 2023 by Lysander

[tango]

On 11/30/2023 at 8:30 PM, JQWL said:

Your story reminds me of a funny story too. About a month ago, we played our 6th grade in the Titan Clash. It is a youth tournament Gibson Southern hosts every year. They do a great job with it. Sunday we were playing Memorial. Before the game the coach and I were talking about how the youth programs are set up in the Evansville area. I didn't know how it was done in the area and as far as Memorial, they have like 3 different teams from the feeder schools he said then they picked that group to play in the Titan Clash. They probably had 22-25 kids there. Late in the game, we are kneeling the clock out. I was talking to the official, who is an Evansville area official, about how small physically their kids were and I was surprised with 3 teams, they didn't have some kids that had more size. He basically said, You know when these kids get older, they will all play for Memorial but they won't be the kids that they win with. He said, they will get the dudes that they win with in the next few years. It won't be these kids. I thought that was funny.

Yes, our consultants recommend not providing financial enticements until the student-athletes reach 7th grade. 

[foxbat]

1 hour ago, Lysander said:

You’ve always pointed out that there are special needs kids who simply aren’t going to participate in varsity level sports via some form of handicap (physical or otherwise….though I can actually recall a quite good one armed kicker for Batesville back in my day), severe learning disability, etc. (I admit questioning whether ELL might be somehow considered disqualifying).  I’ve always been in favor of not counting them towards student population as regards IHSAA class designations.  Is there some reason it is impractical or illegal to do so? That strikes me as a, frankly, uncontroversial (and sensible) change the IHSAA could institute tomorrow.  In a certain sense, it acts as a “negative multiplier” for Publics based on a very precise calculation.  

I realize it’s not a multiplier or automatic bump that some want but incorporating this into the IHSAA class determination calculation might go a heckuva long way towards making a reasonable adjustment EVERYBODY can get behind.

What am I missing here?

You’ve pointed this out for years.  It seems totally reasonable and sensible (at least, I’ve always thought so) but just why hasn’t it gotten any traction?

The only concern that I see in this is that, indirectly, there's a negative connotation that kids with special needs are "dead weight" burdens at their schools.  That's likely to bring some type of cause of action activity which, as we've identified numerous times here on GID, is something the IHSAA wants to avoid like the plague. 

With that said, I have to imagine that, in addition to all of those other stats that the schools and state tracks like race, language, FRL status, ISTEP scores, college placement, etc. there is most likely a participation stat.  That is, what percentage of the student body is involved in one or more extracurricular activity tied directly to the school.  That percentage could then be used to determine the "activity classification" or "activity enrollment" of a school. 

This number would/could incorporate special needs kids, but would not directly target/reflect them.  In addition, for kids classified with a disability or special needs who were active, e.g., the one-armed kicker that you mentioned, would not automatically/erroneously be omitted from the active count.  This would address the potential issue that the IHSAA would wish to avoid, would provide a more accurate count rather than just generally categorizing, and would also allow for several factors to be considered.  In addition, it is applied to all schools equally regardless of p/p, public, charter, etc. classification.

The main problem is that it would likely be a school-reported figure, so it would be be potentially subject to finagling, but it might be a small enough finagling number/impact that it wouldn't matter.  The only other issue, tied to finagling, would be outright reduction in offerings for students with disabilities ... or other groups.  In order to keep its activity count low, a school could decide to reduce offerings like unified flag football or unified track and field.  Similarly, schools might reduce smaller activities where only single-activity students are involved like chess club to gain advantage in the "activity enrollment" impact.  One way to combat this, or actually provide incentive to embrace activities like unified sports, might be to offer a "bonus" reduction for having these programs.  Instead of a school's mindset that it would be a hit to the activity enrollment to have these programs, it would not only be beneficial to the students to offer them, but also to the school to have these.

[Irishman]

1 hour ago, foxbat said:

The only concern that I see in this is that, indirectly, there's a negative connotation that kids with special needs are "dead weight" burdens at their schools.  That's likely to bring some type of cause of action activity which, as we've identified numerous times here on GID, is something the IHSAA wants to avoid like the plague. 

With that said, I have to imagine that, in addition to all of those other stats that the schools and state tracks like race, language, FRL status, ISTEP scores, college placement, etc. there is most likely a participation stat.  That is, what percentage of the student body is involved in one or more extracurricular activity tied directly to the school.  That percentage could then be used to determine the "activity classification" or "activity enrollment" of a school. 

This number would/could incorporate special needs kids, but would not directly target/reflect them.  In addition, for kids classified with a disability or special needs who were active, e.g., the one-armed kicker that you mentioned, would not automatically/erroneously be omitted from the active count.  This would address the potential issue that the IHSAA would wish to avoid, would provide a more accurate count rather than just generally categorizing, and would also allow for several factors to be considered.  In addition, it is applied to all schools equally regardless of p/p, public, charter, etc. classification.

The main problem is that it would likely be a school-reported figure, so it would be be potentially subject to finagling, but it might be a small enough finagling number/impact that it wouldn't matter.  The only other issue, tied to finagling, would be outright reduction in offerings for students with disabilities ... or other groups.  In order to keep its activity count low, a school could decide to reduce offerings like unified flag football or unified track and field.  Similarly, schools might reduce smaller activities where only single-activity students are involved like chess club to gain advantage in the "activity enrollment" impact.  One way to combat this, or actually provide incentive to embrace activities like unified sports, might be to offer a "bonus" reduction for having these programs.  Instead of a school's mindset that it would be a hit to the activity enrollment to have these programs, it would not only be beneficial to the students to offer them, but also to the school to have these.

Well stated. My thoughts exactly, but more than likely, you stated them much better than I likely would have. 

[Irishman]

That said, I do think a couple exceptions are pretty obvious for the IHSAA to consider. 
1. kids over the IHSAA age limit. Legally, kids with IEP’s can remain in high school until the age of 22. The IEP actually extends to the age of 26. 
2. The physically incapable kids are easy to track. The mentally incapable ones may be a bit more difficult as I am sure there are some HIPAA laws that factor in there. But I would like to see high school leaders start the conversation with the leadership in the IHSAA. 

[WestfieldRocks]

On 11/30/2023 at 3:45 PM, Rodney said:

I don't believe they have advantages their competition doesn't

 

A number of public schools have had questionable transfers in recent years as well

 

go out on the field, win the game, and tell your dad to quit crying online.

The Indy Star high school sports columnist just this week did an anonymous poll of some central Indiana high school coaches on what were they biggest issues facing Indiana high school basketball. The top concerns that probably would be mentioned if these were football coaches were, in no particular order: Shortage of officials, Unrealistic parents, recruiting and transfers.

[foxbat]

17 minutes ago, Irishman said:

That said, I do think a couple exceptions are pretty obvious for the IHSAA to consider. 
1. kids over the IHSAA age limit. Legally, kids with IEP’s can remain in high school until the age of 22. The IEP actually extends to the age of 26. 
2. The physically incapable kids are easy to track. The mentally incapable ones may be a bit more difficult as I am sure there are some HIPAA laws that factor in there. But I would like to see high school leaders start the conversation with the leadership in the IHSAA. 

This is why I think using a general inactivity measure as opposed to categorization would work well.  The REASON for inactivity wouldn't matter.  A kid in a wheelchair that has to use eye motion to move the chair and technology to speak counts the same as a kid who works the family farm instead of extra-curriculars  because his dad died of a heart attack at 40 and left his mom to raise him and his three younger siblings who counts the same as a kid that just wants to go to school, do his time between 7:30 - 3:00, and then go home and read manga.  In essence, the state/IHSAA doesn't have to delve into the reasons, and frankly it shouldn't make a difference to them anyway for sports-related reasons, and so it protects the privacy of the kids/families and respects the dignity of the kids in not having to "tell" or "defend" their position. 

As for the age, I think the IHSAA already has an issue for age, in terms of participation, so the adjustment to the "activity count" would be to subtract out someone who is ineligible by age for IHSAA participation even if they are active in some other activity.  For example, a 22-year old involved in the chess club would be ineligible for IHSAA participation in sports, so that school's activity enrollment would be decreased by one.

[tango]

4 hours ago, WestfieldRocks said:

The Indy Star high school sports columnist just this week did an anonymous poll of some central Indiana high school coaches on what were they biggest issues facing Indiana high school basketball. The top concerns that probably would be mentioned if these were football coaches were, in no particular order: Shortage of officials, Unrealistic parents, recruiting and transfers.

AAU also seemed to be an issue of concern

[MarkCalaway]

Why is it so hard to accept that private school families are just better than public school people?

[Muda69]

On 12/2/2023 at 1:08 PM, foxbat said:

 a kid that just wants to go to school, do his time between 7:30 - 3:00, and then go home and read manga.

Hmm, and before you mention "negative connotations"....................

 

[foxbat]

7 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Hmm, and before you mention "negative connotations"....................

 

Not sure of the inference there, but frankly if a kid just wants to go to school and be done with it, I don't see anything wrong with that.  That's his life.  Had a lot of friends in school who just wanted to do their required school time and that was it.  Never wanted to do a minute more than what was required by the state at or with the school ... everything else was "their" time.  Some of them went home and played music in their own bands.  Some read.  Some worked.  Some hung out at their local church or community center.  More power to them.  Frankly, the reasoning for not being active isn't really anyone's business.

[PHJIrish]

It looks like this thread has the capability of setting a new GID record for this subject.  This is always quite impressive to read.  I wish I had the time to read all of it.

[Muda69]

15 hours ago, foxbat said:

Not sure of the inference there,

That reading manga is a "negative" way to spend one's time.  While hanging out at a local church is a positive way to spend one's time.

 

 

[foxbat]

58 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

That reading manga is a "negative" way to spend one's time.  While hanging out at a local church is a positive way to spend one's time.

 

 

That's not what I said nor what I inferred.  Inactivity is inactivity, regardless of the reason.  I also included the line in that same post "In essence, the state/IHSAA doesn't have to delve into the reasons, and frankly it shouldn't make a difference to them anyway for sports-related reasons, and so it protects the privacy of the kids/families and respects the dignity of the kids in not having to "tell" or "defend" their position."  Incidentally, reading is never a negative way to spend ones time; no matter what the topic.

[Muda69]

23 minutes ago, foxbat said:

That's not what I said nor what I inferred.  Inactivity is inactivity, regardless of the reason.  I also included the line in that same post "In essence, the state/IHSAA doesn't have to delve into the reasons, and frankly it shouldn't make a difference to them anyway for sports-related reasons, and so it protects the privacy of the kids/families and respects the dignity of the kids in not having to "tell" or "defend" their position."  Incidentally, reading is never a negative way to spend ones time; no matter what the topic.

IMHO that depends on the manga being consumed, especially concerning younger teens.  I take it you haven't sufficiently investigated the types of manga out on the market.

 

[oldtimeqb]

*** me quickly Googling "manga" ***

I guess I have lived a sheltered life, despite my public school upbringing. 

[WestfieldRocks]

On 12/2/2023 at 5:17 PM, tango said:

AAU also seemed to be an issue of concern

Yes, some of coaches called it the AAU "me first" mentality that then goes over to their high school teams. 

[Lysander]

On 12/4/2023 at 11:49 AM, oldtimeqb said:

*** me quickly Googling "manga" ***

I guess I have lived a sheltered life, despite my public school upbringing. 

Hey…I knew what “manga” was although the kids and I some years back were much more into “anime”….especially the “mecha” and “cyberpunk” stuff.  “Ghost in the Shell” (anime version) is simply incredible….arguably one of the top 10 Sci-Fi films over the last 50 years.

But hey, time for me to get back to my Gene Tracy and Redd Foxx 8 track tapes…right after I install that new carburetor on the Buick.

[Muda69]

7 hours ago, Lysander said:

Hey…I knew what “manga” was although the kids and I some years back were much more into “anime”….especially the “mecha” and “cyberpunk” stuff.  “Ghost in the Shell” (anime version) is simply incredible….arguably one of the top 10 Sci-Fi films over the last 50 years.

But hey, time for me to get back to my Gene Tracy and Redd Foxx 8 track tapes…right after I install that new carburetor on the Buick.

I found this to be a pretty good video:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGJtqTK8GP8

[Titan32]

10 hours ago, Lysander said:

Hey…I knew what “manga” was although the kids and I some years back were much more into “anime”….especially the “mecha” and “cyberpunk” stuff.  “Ghost in the Shell” (anime version) is simply incredible….arguably one of the top 10 Sci-Fi films over the last 50 years.

But hey, time for me to get back to my Gene Tracy and Redd Foxx 8 track tapes…right after I install that new carburetor on the Buick.

Anime kids are quite the rage now....it's like the new Emo...only with more cleavage.

[tango]

10 hours ago, Lysander said:

But hey, time for me to get back to my Gene Tracy and Redd Foxx 8 track tapes…right after I install that new carburetor on the Buick.

Long live Lord Windesmear! 

[Lysander]

Actually, while in college, one of my best buddies (a looong-time physician these days in Brownsburg…I’ll keep his name anonymous) used to play for us his cassette tapes (cutting edge technology at the time) of he and one of his best HS friends announcing the “Olympic Belch-Offs”.  This friend was some dude known today as Mark Patrick…..for those of us who remember. 

Arguably the funniest and grossest thing I’ve heard before or since.  I think the “long jump belch” lasted every bit of 45 seconds.  God forbid, the musical “flutter belch”.  Let alone the “poetry reading belch”. 

True talent is seldom recognized in its time.

[Lysander]

On 12/14/2023 at 12:04 PM, Titan32 said:

Anime kids are quite the rage now....it's like the new Emo...only with more cleavage.

As simultaneously a hillbilly red-neck troglodyte who somehow stumbled his way through college and some IU school having something or other to do regarding legal interactions…..and a Gawdamn red-blooded American male (the worst person in the world per today’s DEI Commissars apparently),  cleavage has always been a bit….errr….one could say…...inspirational to me personally….not so much the Emo stuff, though….unless those Emo chicks are MASSIVELY endowed.   

Just how cancelled am I at this point? 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Lysander

[Bobref]

On 12/1/2023 at 1:55 PM, Lysander said:

think that an improved SF remains the way v. automatic bumps or multipliers.  If anyone remembers, I was strongly opposed to the SF back in the day and advocated an automatic bump.  I’ve had a lot of years to reconsider and have come around that the automatic bump for EVERY P/P school in EVERY sport (boys and girls) because a handful of schools have extraordinary football success simply isn’t the right or fair approach. Bump schools in the sport tge punch above class in but leave everything else alone.  The SF seems the only way to get this right.

Couldn’t have said it better myself.

[Titan32]

5 hours ago, Lysander said:

As simultaneously a hillbilly red-neck troglodyte who somehow stumbled his way through college and some IU school having something or other to do regarding legal interactions…..and a Gawdamn red-blooded American male (the worst person in the world per today’s DEI Commissars apparently),  cleavage has always been a bit….errr….one could say…...inspirational to me personally….not so much the Emo stuff, though….unless those Emo chicks are MASSIVELY endowed.   

Just how cancelled am I at this point? 

We have all been canceled....a dying breed...LOL.  I'll just leave this here.

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Titan32